What's The Argument For Lemieux Over Orr?

JackSlater

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
18,543
13,480
I think some posters here need to put their hubris aside and accept Scotty Bowman knows more about winning hockey games.

Later picks in his list, it's fair to assume he probably didn't put too much thought into. His top 15-25 however.

I think that people are well aware that Bowman knows more about winning hockey games, and hockey in general, than anyone here. The issue is more the easiness with which people disregard someone who knows far, far more about the topic than they do. I also think that people overestimate how objective or "right" any of these lists can possibly be, and that's whether they like or dislike anyone else's list.

I guess you changed your mind since it was released then?



We all know that list is awful, be real. Everyone has favourites and obviously Bowman has a bunch.

That's fair, I'm sure any of us doing our personal lists would have bias in them that people would quesiton. But I don't excuse it just because it is Scotty Bowman.
No, I still think he would be heckled mercilessly. It's an unusual list and some of the big opinions (especially Richard over Gretzky) are hard to take. I don't know how much weight I'd give to accusations of bias when the bias would mainly be that he is far more informed on these players than anyone who would be criticizing his list.
 
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JackSlater

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
18,543
13,480
Do we want to do a watch along?

This is the best regular season game footage from 1970-71 I saw.


There's also this, but it's fuzzier, and that can be annoying.


I searched "Penguins 1989" on YouTube. After skipping the Jets and Super Series game, (not a good enough team, and an exhibition) I was going to post an Oilers game from 1988-89, but when I checked the results, Lemieux scored 7 points and that might not be fair.

Next hit was Game 5 against the Flyers. 8 points. Nope.

Then there's his first playoff game, where he gets 1 assist. Maybe that's a candidate.

A Wings-Pens Game from February looked fun, with a Yzerman matchup, but 4 points.

A couple of 89-90 games, then a February game against the Flyers with 2 points.

More 89-90 stuff, and then a very clipped game against the Gretzky Kings. 2 points. Not good quality, but it might help dispel the notion that the 1970s were rough and filled with line brawls, while the 1980s were soft (fighting peaked in 1988 or so).

I might leave it to someone else to find a suitable game to watch.

I like it, I like it a lot. I've seen Orr games from various parts of his career but the more the merrier. I'm very confident on what Lemieux can do but even then, I should probably watch some 1989ish games as a refresher of him at his physical best.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,995
6,451
You can't take Scotty Bowman's opinions on individual players as church gospel for the same reason you can't take Gretzky's opinions on Individual players as church gospel. Too much variables, criteria, bias and stuff in that whole equation. Didn't he rank Wendel Clark in front of Doug Gilmour on some list, btw?

All this ranking obsession is so tedious. Even in individual sports like tennis where guys play each other head-to-head a ton for almost two decades, people still can't agree on who's this or who's that.

It's like when you strip a person down too much, a lot of the mystique and appeal disappears.
 

Gorskyontario

Registered User
Feb 18, 2024
409
337
I think that people are well aware that Bowman knows more about winning hockey games, and hockey in general, than anyone here. The issue is more the easiness with which people disregard someone who knows far, far more about the topic than they do. I also think that people overestimate how objective or "right" any of these lists can possibly be, and that's whether they like or dislike anyone else's list.


No, I still think he would be heckled mercilessly. It's an unusual list and some of the big opinions (especially Richard over Gretzky) are hard to take. I don't know how much weight I'd give to accusations of bias when the bias would mainly be that he is far more informed on these players than anyone who would be criticizing his list.

If someone wants to have Lemiex, Orr, or Gretzky in any order I have no issue with that. People have the right to their own opinion and that's their right. That being said several people on this thread are taking a more dogmatic approach, which I don't agree with. Dismissing Bowman and saying he is objectively wrong is, frankly odd. Similar to the posters point counting, and disregarding Orr's accomplishments as a product of a 'watered down league', while ignoring Lemieux mostly playing in a much higher scoring era.
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,328
3,003
Do we want to do a watch along?

This is the best regular season game footage from 1970-71 I saw.


My notes from the first period.

This wasn't Orr's best period. He wasn't involved in either Boston goal. He was on the ice for Montreal's goal, and I think he could have played it better. And he didn't have a single end to end rush, as the commentator noted near the end of the period.

That said, Boston looked night and day different with Orr on the ice instead of Ted Green at right defence. Green was a good defender, he could skate and defend well and he knew where to be, but when he was out there instead of Orr, Boston looked slow and laboured to move the puck down the ice. Orr just transformed them.

Orr was in complete command with the puck on his stick, made good decisions on the breakout and set his teammates up to succeed. And the Habs gave him a ton of room, because he was nearly impossible to forecheck when he was playing in control.

Montreal also avoided Orr's side of the ice on the rush, constantly attacking Boston's left defence instead. With one exception which I'll get to.

Some examples of good breakouts by Orr (times are the Youtube time, not the game time).

10:00 - Montreal is set, with Henri Richard at the tip of the spear waiting for Orr to come out behind his net. And Orr still hits Don Marcotte in stride across his blueline with a pass from his own end line.

15:40 - Orr skates it out from behind his own net and beats the first forechecker with a little burst, seemingly effortlessly, and sends a forward in on goal with a pass.

16:10 - Orr has a forechecker on him and a second one in the area and spins out of trouble into open space.

16:40, 33:15, 34:00 - some other clean breakouts starting with Orr

35:20 - Orr one-touched the puck out of a scrum in his zone to send Esposito on an end to end rush. Just one touch and one read but it looks like he knew exactly what he was doing.

On the other hand, while Orr was in complete control on his side of the red line, he didn't do much offensively after crossing the red line. Both times he carried the puck across, he tested Phil Myhre with a slapshot from the neutral zone. 26:00, 35:00.

Orr did have a couple of turnovers early in the period, both on the same type of play. Montreal had possession of the puck in the zone, Orr got his stick on it, and decided he could clear the zone all on his own by accelerating and stickhandling. Both times he lost it just before his own blueline and Montreal briefly had a 3-on-1 with him out of the play, although they weren't able to get a good chance either time. See 6:50 and 12:40. This is where you'd like to see the decision making be better, and Orr should probably have cut out these one-man zone clearing attempts against a quality opponent.

One offensive zone play for Orr that I liked was on the power play at 17:55. Guy Lapointe clears the puck up the boards to Orr's backhand at the offensive blueline, with Tardif pressuring him. Orr makes one touch and hits the jets to carry the puck across the blueline like Tardif wasn't even there, drawing both Montreal forwards to him and setting up a shot. Just a small play but you don't see that control and decisiveness in a small space too often, combining the touch with the skating.

The Montreal forwards looked faster than the Boston forwards, especially later in the period and especially during the 4-on-4 play.

The 4-on-4 was the one time when Montreal attacked Orr of the rush - see 27:20 - as Lapointe sent Lemaire in with a great pass which started the sequence leading to Montreal's goal. Lemaire passed to Backstrom who passed back to Lemaire, and Dallas Smith made an ill-advised lunge for the return pass, missing and taking himself out of the play. Orr slid to block Lemaire's centering pass and missed, and Montreal defenceman J.C. Tremblay was all alone in front to finish it, with Fred Stanfield too late on the backcheck. Orr maybe should have stayed up and stayed back to play it like a 2-on-1 - although I'm not sure how much they trusted the goalie to stop the shot in those situations, maybe he was expected to take the player with the puck - but Smith and Stanfield both made clear mistakes to my eye.

Speaking of J.C. Tremblay, he was pretty good on the breakout for Montreal. See 25:10, 34:40, 35:05, and some very nice puck-ragging by Tremblay on the penalty kill at 18:45.

On Boston's first goal, Esposito really showed his ability to use his reach and stick skills to vacuum up the puck in the slot area and get it on goal, and then get the rebound on goal again. See 7:50.
 

JackSlater

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
18,543
13,480
My notes from the first period.

This wasn't Orr's best period. He wasn't involved in either Boston goal. He was on the ice for Montreal's goal, and I think he could have played it better. And he didn't have a single end to end rush, as the commentator noted near the end of the period.

That said, Boston looked night and day different with Orr on the ice instead of Ted Green at right defence. Green was a good defender, he could skate and defend well and he knew where to be, but when he was out there instead of Orr, Boston looked slow and laboured to move the puck down the ice. Orr just transformed them.

Orr was in complete command with the puck on his stick, made good decisions on the breakout and set his teammates up to succeed. And the Habs gave him a ton of room, because he was nearly impossible to forecheck when he was playing in control.

Montreal also avoided Orr's side of the ice on the rush, constantly attacking Boston's left defence instead. With one exception which I'll get to.

Some examples of good breakouts by Orr (times are the Youtube time, not the game time).

10:00 - Montreal is set, with Henri Richard at the tip of the spear waiting for Orr to come out behind his net. And Orr still hits Don Marcotte in stride across his blueline with a pass from his own end line.

15:40 - Orr skates it out from behind his own net and beats the first forechecker with a little burst, seemingly effortlessly, and sends a forward in on goal with a pass.

16:10 - Orr has a forechecker on him and a second one in the area and spins out of trouble into open space.

16:40, 33:15, 34:00 - some other clean breakouts starting with Orr

35:20 - Orr one-touched the puck out of a scrum in his zone to send Esposito on an end to end rush. Just one touch and one read but it looks like he knew exactly what he was doing.

On the other hand, while Orr was in complete control on his side of the red line, he didn't do much offensively after crossing the red line. Both times he carried the puck across, he tested Phil Myhre with a slapshot from the neutral zone. 26:00, 35:00.

Orr did have a couple of turnovers early in the period, both on the same type of play. Montreal had possession of the puck in the zone, Orr got his stick on it, and decided he could clear the zone all on his own by accelerating and stickhandling. Both times he lost it just before his own blueline and Montreal briefly had a 3-on-1 with him out of the play, although they weren't able to get a good chance either time. See 6:50 and 12:40. This is where you'd like to see the decision making be better, and Orr should probably have cut out these one-man zone clearing attempts against a quality opponent.

One offensive zone play for Orr that I liked was on the power play at 17:55. Guy Lapointe clears the puck up the boards to Orr's backhand at the offensive blueline, with Tardif pressuring him. Orr makes one touch and hits the jets to carry the puck across the blueline like Tardif wasn't even there, drawing both Montreal forwards to him and setting up a shot. Just a small play but you don't see that control and decisiveness in a small space too often, combining the touch with the skating.

The Montreal forwards looked faster than the Boston forwards, especially later in the period and especially during the 4-on-4 play.

The 4-on-4 was the one time when Montreal attacked Orr of the rush - see 27:20 - as Lapointe sent Lemaire in with a great pass which started the sequence leading to Montreal's goal. Lemaire passed to Backstrom who passed back to Lemaire, and Dallas Smith made an ill-advised lunge for the return pass, missing and taking himself out of the play. Orr slid to block Lemaire's centering pass and missed, and Montreal defenceman J.C. Tremblay was all alone in front to finish it, with Fred Stanfield too late on the backcheck. Orr maybe should have stayed up and stayed back to play it like a 2-on-1 - although I'm not sure how much they trusted the goalie to stop the shot in those situations, maybe he was expected to take the player with the puck - but Smith and Stanfield both made clear mistakes to my eye.

Speaking of J.C. Tremblay, he was pretty good on the breakout for Montreal. See 25:10, 34:40, 35:05, and some very nice puck-ragging by Tremblay on the penalty kill at 18:45.

On Boston's first goal, Esposito really showed his ability to use his reach and stick skills to vacuum up the puck in the slot area and get it on goal, and then get the rebound on goal again. See 7:50.
Very nice, thanks for sharing. I'd like to watch both games, one each of the next two games. I'd also like to find some of Orr against some of the weak teams. I saw Orr games (and segments from games) on NHL classics and I've seen a few on youtube, but it's almost always Boston vs Montreal or Toronto. Games against the strong teams are most valuable but the other ones are likely interesting too.
 

Mike C

Registered User
Jan 24, 2022
10,901
7,507
Indian Trail, N.C.

Yeah 100 points playing with the corpse of Wayne Babych and a bunch of AHL fodder. Did you look at those mid 80s pens teams?



Can you prove this? Gretzky always had an excellent supporting cast really until his last few years in LA, and especially the last 2 seasons in new york.
I'm gonna go on a limb and say that Gretzky's supporting cast was excellent in reasonable measure because of his elevating their play
 

Luigi Lemieux

Registered User
Sep 26, 2003
21,644
9,635
I would say the argument for Lemieux over Orr would be that if Gretzky doesn't exist Lemieux owns the top 4 scoring seasons of all time. In that world Lemieux is likely considered the best player ever.
 

Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
41,183
17,643
Mulberry Street
Lol... the Bowman list again!

Look, Bowman of course is a legend in his own time, and surely we should (and do) pay attention to his interesting (if yeah, slightly wonky) list.

But, just because Bowman was a strategical hockey genius doesn't mean he's objective. Bowman grew up in the Montreal system, in Montreal. As a kid, he'd go into the Forum and watch Rocket Richard practice (Bowman likely saw little of the Rocket in his prime, yet he rated him higher than Gretzky). Bowman scouted Orr, coached against Orr regularly and often, and he coached Orr in 1976. He was hired when they drafted Guy Lafleur and coached him to 5 Cups. Bowman coached Mario Lemieux (who's from Montreal... like Bowman) to 2 Stanley Cups together.

Gretzky dominated hockey at a time when Bowman's career was going down, eventually reaching the toilet in 1986-87 (his team was last overall). The one time Bowman coached Gretzky, Canada lost (and then they won three best-on-best tournaments in a row, without Bowman).

So, it's hardly surprising that Bowman highly rates classic Montreal stars and Lafleur, Orr, and Lemieux. It's also not overly surprising that he slightly under-rates Gretzky.

His opinions are certainly fascinating in context. His ranking of players, though, is certainly not objective (not that anyone's is).

Bowman coached Lemieux to one cup (92), in 91 Bowman worked in the Penguins front office as director of player personnel.

If only i had been an NHL-accredited newspaper journalist with the press pass to stand by the locker room doors and rinkside during practice.

If only I had been Scotty Bowmans lead assistant on the 97 Red Wings
 

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