What's our shutdown line?

[zeke]

So no memory of how he demoralized McDavid? He was definitely used as our shut down centre and also had amazing offensive numbers at the same time.

Never demoralized McDavid like we did this past season.

Kadri and Matthews shared the top matchup duty for one year, but Matthews quickly took that over midway through his rookie year.

Vs McDavid as leafs until Kadri traded:

Tavares 2gms, 8:22toi/gm, 1gf/1ga
Kadri 5gms, 7:02toi/gm, 2gf/2ga
Matthews 5gms, 6:42toi/gm, 1gf/1ga
Bozak 4gms, 2:38toi/gm, 0gf/1ga

 

[conFABulator]

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of making our big money guys prove it on their own line (not to bury/expose them, show there worth and give teams match up fits)

Ritchie - Matthews - Nylander
Bunting - Tavares - Robertson
Mikhayev - xxxx - Marner
Simmonds - Kampf - Spezza

Still holding out for us to snag someone like Dvorak.
That being said; our "shutdown" line is that of hitting teams with a steady dose of skill...and not worrying about line matching or shutting teams down; because it's time for us to control the pace.

I am not sure I understand the value in posting line-up suggestions that are not practical or possible.

Who would you take out of the line-up to acquire Dvorak or to fit him in under the cap?

I think our shut down (3rd) line will be Engvall-Kampf-Mikheyev and I think management has telegraphed this with their words and choices already.

This leaves Bunting, Ritchie, Kase, and Kerfoot battling for three open spots, two in the top 6 and one joining Spezza and Simmonds on sheltered fourth line.

Injuries will probably solve that battle and by mid year we might see Robertson, Anderson and other making a push from below.

 

[123offtheglass]

If it came down to a series against a stacked line like say: Draisaitl - McDavid - Hyman

I think Mikheyev - Kamf - Marner would be the way to go. Then the rest:

Bunting - Matthews - Nylander
Robertson - Tavares - Kase
Ritchie - Kerfoot - Spezza

Kerfoot could split shutdown duties with Kamf & Mikheyev.

 

[ottomaddox]

If it came down to a series against a stacked line like say: Draisaitl - McDavid - Hyman

I think Mikheyev - Kamf - Marner would be the way to go. Then the rest:

Bunting - Matthews - Nylander
Robertson - Tavares - Kase
Ritchie - Kerfoot - Spezza

Kerfoot could split shutdown duties with Kamf & Mikheyev.

I like your idea, but doesn't $10.9 million dollar AAV dictate a more offensive role?

 

[123offtheglass]

I like your idea, but doesn't $10.9 million dollar AAV dictate a more offensive role?

You’d think… still possible to create some offense in that role but extremely difficult (can get his PP time too & can be taken off the line at any time given the situation of the game).

Not saying Marner is Kopitar but he’s an example at 10.5m

 

[TheGroceryStick]

I am not sure I understand the value in posting line-up suggestions that are not practical or possible.

Who would you take out of the line-up to acquire Dvorak or to fit him in under the cap?

I think our shut down (3rd) line will be Engvall-Kampf-Mikheyev and I think management has telegraphed this with their words and choices already.

This leaves Bunting, Ritchie, Kase, and Kerfoot battling for three open spots, two in the top 6 and one joining Spezza and Simmonds on sheltered fourth line.

Injuries will probably solve that battle and by mid year we might see Robertson, Anderson and other making a push from below.

Don't know why it's that big of a deal. I believe it's our most complete lineup... not like I'm asking for us to aquire McDavid.

An upgrade on Kerfoot at 3C would be enticing, as is changing the lines up.

As I said, I believe we have a trade in us somewhere. Speculation is fun...

 

[Zybalto]

Maybe some here need to put a different cap on for this question.....

Who are the Panthers shutdown line? I think almost every poster in here would say the Barkov line right?....which would make sense seeing as he's one of the best two way centers in the game. Why doesnt the Matthews/Marner line get the same recognition?

 

[zeke]

Maybe some here need to put a different cap on for this question.....

Who are the Panthers shutdown line? I think almost every poster in here would say the Barkov line right?....which would make sense seeing as he's one of the best two way centers in the game. Why doesnt the Matthews/Marner line get the same recognition?

In fact, both Matthews and Tavares are top matchup centers.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Maybe some here need to put a different cap on for this question.....

Who are the Panthers shutdown line? I think almost every poster in here would say the Barkov line right?....which would make sense seeing as he's one of the best two way centers in the game. Why doesnt the Matthews/Marner line get the same recognition?

It's actually the Acciari line.

 

[Zybalto]

It's actually the Acciari line.

Naws. An all situations defensive line isnt a shutdown line. Barkov was literally matched against Point/Kucherov in the playoffs....not that it helped a whole lot who you put against them it seems.

 

[bossram]

I believe Bunting and Robertson do just that.
Both are hounds when on their game....and JT has been accustomed to making (lesser) players looked very good in NYI.

I doubt it happens and also doubt media/fans would allow this experiment to actually play out.
(With Marner on the "paper" 3rd line)

Bunting's not really a burner, nor a transition-heavy player. He's kinda like a B-version of Hyman: a digger who gets chances around the net.

Robertson is not NHL ready.

I don't really think the fan or media perception would have an impact on the lineup. The Leafs have Marner in a high-leverage role because he is one of their best players and they think that will help them win.

 

[Zybalto]

In fact, both Matthews and Tavares are top matchup centers.

Here are some fun numbers for ya:

5v5 numbers:

Marner/Matthews regular season:
CF%: 55.08
SF%: 56.79
SCF%: 62.77
HDCF%: 67.48
xGF%: 61.96
GF%: 68.15

Danault regular season:
CF%: 58.54
SF%: 59.22
SCF%: 58.58
HDCF%: 56.38
xGF%: 57.82
GF%: 59.76

Marner/Matthews 2021 playoffs:
CF%: 54.83
SF%: 60.87
SCF%: 59.09
HDCF%: 69.53
xGF%: 68.10
GF%: 73.41

Danault playoffs against the Leafs:
CF%: 48.26
SF%: 40.10
SCF%: 39.82
HDCF%: 43.12
xGF%: 34.89
GF%: 0% (-1.59/60 goals against)

Danault rest of the playoffs:
CF%: 47.12
SF%: 52.13
SCF%: 48.35
HDCF%: 49.51
xGF%: 55.21
GF%: 57.03

Looking at the numbers, Its actually no wonder Keefe wanted to keep Matthews/Marner out there against Danault so often as he was getting completely run over by them worse than any other line did to him, maybe all year and he seemed to get at least close to his usual self once he finally got away from them. Matthews/Marner dominated so hard they literally broke up the Habs top line banishing Tatar to the pressbox the rest of the playoffs. (I wonder what happened there?) If not for the heroics of Price in the series (and playoffs overall), I could only imagine the dismantling of the team that might be occurring.

...but why is the narrative so negative to the defensive contributions and complete game Matthews/Marner played? "OMG only 5 points in 7 games!" is all you hear for some reason.....and of course the same people would be chiming in about D if Matthews scored 10 points but was on for 10 goals as well. They would become a loudspeaker for defensive play at that point.

The amount of hate watching and cluelessness about defensive play is astonishing in Leafs nation sometimes.

 

[zeke]

Here are some fun numbers for ya:

5v5 numbers:

Marner/Matthews regular season:
CF%: 55.08
SF%: 56.79
SCF%: 62.77
HDCF%: 67.48
xGF%: 61.96
GF%: 68.15

Danault regular season:
CF%: 58.54
SF%: 59.22
SCF%: 58.58
HDCF%: 56.38
xGF%: 57.82
GF%: 59.76

Marner/Matthews 2021 playoffs:
CF%: 54.83
SF%: 60.87
SCF%: 59.09
HDCF%: 69.53
xGF%: 68.10
GF%: 73.41

Danault playoffs against the Leafs:
CF%: 48.26
SF%: 40.10
SCF%: 39.82
HDCF%: 43.12
xGF%: 34.89
GF%: 0% (-1.59/60 goals against)

Danault rest of the playoffs:
CF%: 47.12
SF%: 52.13
SCF%: 48.35
HDCF%: 49.51
xGF%: 55.21
GF%: 57.03

Looking at the numbers, Its actually no wonder Keefe wanted to keep Matthews/Marner out there against Danault so often as he was getting completely run over by them worse than any other line did to him, maybe all year and he seemed to get at least close to his usual self once he finally got away from them. Matthews/Marner dominated so hard they literally broke up the Habs top line banishing Tatar to the pressbox the rest of the playoffs. (I wonder what happened there?) If not for the heroics of Price in the series (and playoffs overall), I could only imagine the dismantling of the team that might be occurring.

...but why is the narrative so negative to the defensive contributions and complete game Matthews/Marner played? "OMG only 5 points in 7 games!" is all you hear for some reason.....and of course the same people would be chiming in about D if Matthews scored 10 points but was on for 10 goals as well. They would become a loudspeaker for defensive play at that point.

The amount of hate watching and cluelessness about defensive play is astonishing in Leafs nation sometimes.

All true.

But everything about this series does come down to Matthews and Marner not putting the puck in the net, unfortunately. Even if they did actually play well.

 

[Zybalto]

All true.

But everything about this series does come down to Matthews and Marner not putting the puck in the net, unfortunately. Even if they did actually play well.

Part of that is because of the play of Price of course and he did it to the Jets (the 12 highest scoring team in the NHL) and Vegas (the 3rd highest scoring team in the NHL) right after but you also have to consider the fact that Matthews/Marner had more points than Thornton, Engvall, Simmonds, Hymen, Mikheyev, Sandin, Folgino, Holl, Nash, Dermott and Brooks combined while playing shutdown hockey against one of the more complete lines in the league last year.

I dont think they were as big a problem as folks are making out and depth scoring was, by far, a bigger problem. There was a real imbalance on the team between the top 2 lines and the bottom ones (outside of Spezza), probably the biggest variance of any team in the playoffs. Hopefully the revamp helps cures this issue. It's why the most obvious choice to fix the team in the other thread was depth scoring.

 

[zeke]

Part of that is because of the play of Price of course and he did it to the Jets (the 12 highest scoring team in the NHL) and Vegas (the 3rd highest scoring team in the NHL) right after but you also have to consider the fact that Matthews/Marner had more points than Thornton, Engvall, Simmonds, Hymen, Mikheyev, Sandin, Folgino, Holl, Nash, Dermott and Brooks combined while playing shutdown hockey against one of the more complete lines in the league last year.

I dont think they were as big a problem as folks are making out and depth scoring was, by far, a bigger problem. There was a real imbalance on the team between the top 2 lines and the bottom ones (outside of Spezza), probably the biggest variance of any team in the playoffs. Hopefully the revamp helps cures this issue. It's why the most obvious choice to fix the team in the other thread was depth scoring.

it's just not true though.

not only did non-top-6ers Kerfoot and Galy step up huge, but so did 4th liner Spezza. that's 2 layers of very nice depth production, most than most any team gets. and in addition, the backline was very productive as well.

Matthews/Marner not scoring, plus tavares injury, was the entire reason we didn't win.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Part of that is because of the play of Price of course and he did it to the Jets (the 12 highest scoring team in the NHL) and Vegas (the 3rd highest scoring team in the NHL) right after but you also have to consider the fact that Matthews/Marner had more points than Thornton, Engvall, Simmonds, Hymen, Mikheyev, Sandin, Folgino, Holl, Nash, Dermott and Brooks combined while playing shutdown hockey against one of the more complete lines in the league last year.

I dont think they were as big a problem as folks are making out and depth scoring was, by far, a bigger problem. There was a real imbalance on the team between the top 2 lines and the bottom ones (outside of Spezza), probably the biggest variance of any team in the playoffs. Hopefully the revamp helps cures this issue. It's why the most obvious choice to fix the team in the other thread was depth scoring.

Price definitely had a great series vs the leafs but then again hasn't the same been said for every goalie the leafs have played the past like 3-4 playoffs? Some of it is down to the leaf shooters making it too easy for the goalies. The amount of shots straight into the logo during the playoffs is crazy.

The issue is that Matthews or Marners both have a cap hit that is damn near the sum of all those depth players you mentioned. They are paid that highly to produce, regardless of excuses. They aren't paid that high for good defensive play. The team will live and die with those 2 and if they can't produce in the playoffs this team is going nowhere

 

[Ziggdiezan]

it's just not true though.

not only did non-top-6ers Kerfoot and Galy step up huge, but so did 4th liner Spezza. that's 2 layers of very nice depth production, most than most any team gets. and in addition, the backline was very productive as well.

Matthews/Marner not scoring, plus tavares injury, was the entire reason we didn't win.

Agreed. I would add in Campbell letting in some really really soft goals at key moments certainly didnt help but mainly Marner/Matthews and JT getting injured

 

[IPS]

Very few teams do "shutdown lines" anymore. Montreal is one of the few last year with their Danault line.

On a team with Matthews and Tavares - it makes 0 sense at all to have a shutdown line. You're going to heavily disrupt their usage if you constantly try to employ a shutdown line against the team's best opposition.

 

[conFABulator]

Don't know why it's that big of a deal. I believe it's our most complete lineup... not like I'm asking for us to aquire McDavid.

An upgrade on Kerfoot at 3C would be enticing, as is changing the lines up.

As I said, I believe we have a trade in us somewhere. Speculation is fun...

Fair. I didn't realize you had Kerfoot out. It is not the unrealistic line-up types I was complaining about. Sorry about that.

Having said that, I don't think Dvorak is what we need on our third line, I don't think Kerfoot alone gets Dvorak (not saying you suggested a straight up swap), and Dvorak's salary in would require more than just Kerfoot out.

 

[MagicalRazor]

Ritchie Kerfoot Simmonds

 

[Koolboss]

Kadri is a defensive liability.

This js why we are so much better defensively without him.

So Kerfoot > Kadri eh

 

[Mess]

Our shutdown line come the playoffs is the Matthews line, because whoever they play against shuts them down.



It would be nice if we had a line that could do that to the opposition, as that might come in handy.

Pretty sure that is the idea behind the Kampf signing to pair him with Mikheyev and one other player to be used in that role next year.

 

[ACC1224]

So Kerfoot > Kadri eh

It’s amazing how fast players decline as soon as they leave the team.

 

[notbias]

It’s amazing how fast players decline as soon as they leave the team.

Playoff Kerfoot > playoff Kadri

I am assuming no one bad-mouthing the Leafs' lack of success because of the playoffs would possibly think Kadri is better than Kerfoot.

But Kadri leaving led to Kerfoot + Brodie, and I'd take Brodie over Kerfoot/Kadri.

Kadri was miscast as a 3C here, him being moved was the right move and I think the return was good at the time (even though Barrie was not geat for us).

Kadri is still a 2C outside of Toronto like he was in Toronto.

 

[notbias]

Our shutdown line come the playoffs is the Matthews line, because whoever they play against shuts them down.



It would be nice if we had a line that could do that to the opposition, as that might come in handy.

Pretty sure that is the idea behind the Kampf signing to pair him with Mikheyev and one other player to be used in that role next year.

I don't think you understand the idea of a shutdown line, it is to stop chances, the goalie's job is to stop goals.

I guess jokes don't need to be based on facts, or new, so carry on.

I really hope the idea is not to deploy a shutdown line for 1/3 of the game, we have two 1st lines, use them for 20 and use the other two lines 12/8.