What's dumber in fighting?

[Devilsfan2326]

Not sure why y'all have to get so heated. This is a fighting thread I guess...

 

[Yepthatsme]

After playing in Canada, I actually played hockey overseas in West Germany if it really matters that much to you.

Ok perfect so you have experience, do you not have any memories of how your bench reacted after a fight, especially a resounding win? Or how the bench reacted after a big hit? Or a guy laying out for a huge block? Teams build energy off events like these, it really can swing momentum.

 

[sena]

What's dumber? Fighting after a clean hit or staged fighting? I'd go with staged fighting because at least fighting after a clean hit is spur of the moment protecting a teammate. To me staged fighting is a complete sideshow there to justify guys' existence in a league that shouldn't be there. It has nothing to do with hockey. It's like going to watch a play and in the middle of it they do their taxes.

It is an entertainment business and a lot of fans like a good tilt. Some times a staged fight can take a mean hard hitting meatball off the ice and the other players will feel a little bit happy. Fighting after a clean hit is just assaulting a guy for no reason if he does not want to fight and is 100x worse than a staged fight
2 guys that enjoy fighting in front of huge crowds should not be an issue to anyone.

 

[NyQuil]

Ok perfect so you have experience, do you not have any memories of how your bench reacted after a fight, especially a resounding win?

When did I ever say that fights weren't momentum shifting? Or that they couldn't inspire emotions in a team?

I take issue with the idea that our biggest guy has to fight their biggest guy because they're the biggest guys and everyone is expecting them to fight each other. And they expect to fight each because that's what they are expected to do.

The singular example I gave, which you took issue with for some reason, is when a staged fight takes place with no prior history, no in-game reason for fighting, no real momentum to shift, too early in the game to have much impact. There's no deterrence, no build-up, nothing.

Eventually in the NHL, there was a club of guys who were too big to fight anyone else, so they just fought each other, again and again and again. And there was no real bad blood between the penalty boxes, just conversation and mutual respect.

Fights between enforcers could certainly inspire teams, but at the right time and in the right circumstances. Otherwise it's just a sideshow.

Not every staged fight is the same, obviously, but it was trending in the direction of fighting for its own sake, as opposed to some legitimate hockey reason.

 

[Yepthatsme]

When did I ever say that fights weren't momentum shifting? Or that they couldn't inspire emotions in a team?

I take issue with the idea that our biggest guy has to fight their biggest guy because they're the biggest guys and everyone is expecting them to fight each other. And they expect to fight each because that's what they are expected to do.

The singular example I gave, which you took issue with for some reason, is when a staged fight takes place with no prior history, no in-game reason for fighting, no real momentum to shift, too early in the game to have much impact. There's no deterrence, no build-up, nothing.

Eventually in the NHL, there was a club of guys who were too big to fight anyone else, so they just fought each other, again and again and again. And there was no bad blood between the boxes, just conversation and mutual respect.

Fights between enforcers could certainly inspire teams, but at the right time and in the right circumstances. Otherwise it's just a sideshow.

That’s where the major disconnect actually comes from, your belief that early in a game there’s no momentum to shift. When it’s a level game, that’s exactly the right opportunity to try and give your team the upper hand. You seemed to think that a fight within the first 5 minutes accomplishes nothing. It’s the assertion that they’re fighting for the sake of fighting, when in reality, there’s usually a lot more behind the scenes that since fans don’t see, they just assume doesn’t happen. The same goes with this site almost turning “he’s a locker room guy” into a meme. We can’t see the benefits they bring, so it must be an old boys club thing and not a real reason to give that plug your teams board probably hates a contract.

 

[NyQuil]

That’s where the major disconnect actually comes from, your belief that early in a game there’s no momentum to shift. When it’s a level game, that’s exactly the right opportunity to try and give your team the upper hand. You seemed to think that a fight within the first 5 minutes accomplishes nothing. It’s the assertion that they’re fighting for the sake of fighting, when in reality, there’s usually a lot more behind the scenes that since fans don’t see, they just assume doesn’t happen. The same goes with this site almost turning “he’s a locker room guy” into a meme. We can’t see the benefits they bring, so it must be an old boys club thing and not a real reason to give that plug your teams board probably hates a contract.

Just going to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Lshap]

Is it a staged fight when a player has to 'answer the bell' a few shifts later because he injured another player?

This isn't a spur of the moment thing, nor is it a fight between two enforcers. A player injures another player, even accidentally, and we know retribution is coming. But we have to wait, sometimes until the next game when those teams meet.

Wouldn't that be considered 'staged'? And where does that rank on the "Dumb-Meter"?

 

[NyQuil]

Is it a staged fight when a player has to 'answer the bell' a few shifts later because he injured another player?

This isn't a spur of the moment thing, nor is it a fight between two enforcers. A player injures another player, even accidentally, and we know retribution is coming. But we have to wait, sometimes until the next game when those teams meet.

Wouldn't that be considered 'staged'? And where does that rank on the "Dumb-Meter"?

Staged basically means pre-arranged between the combatants for whatever reason.

I think some reasons make more sense than others.

I do think that some staged fights happen out of duty more than any actual hockey reason and I think that those particular fights are pointless given the long-term risks.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Is it a staged fight when a player has to 'answer the bell' a few shifts later because he injured another player?

This isn't a spur of the moment thing, nor is it a fight between two enforcers. A player injures another player, even accidentally, and we know retribution is coming. But we have to wait, sometimes until the next game when those teams meet.

Wouldn't that be considered 'staged'? And where does that rank on the "Dumb-Meter"?

I personally don't think that's a staged fight. Although it's somewhere between staged and heat of the momentum because it was premeditated.

 

[Kegs]

You guys know what's sad? If you go to Social Media I bet most people still love staged fights.

I see a lot of people want it completely removed.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I see a lot of people want it completely removed.

In Social Media? Really? I find that there are a lot of fans on Facebook that are basically the "shooooot" people at games. Kind of idiots that are watching for toughness for toughness sake. I'm not against toughness, both physical and mental is important. But people forget that toughness needs to be good.

 

[Legionnaire11]

I used to think staged fights were ridiculous and stupid, but after watching Ice Guardians they did a great job of explaining how fighting got to that point and it makes way more sense. Doesn't mean anyone has to like it, but it wasn't pointless.

 

[Mike C]

What's dumber? Fighting after a clean hit or staged fighting? I'd go with staged fighting because at least fighting after a clean hit is spur of the moment protecting a teammate. To me staged fighting is a complete sideshow there to justify guys' existence in a league that shouldn't be there. It has nothing to do with hockey. It's like going to watch a play and in the middle of it they do their taxes.

Choice D

Both

 

[Sigh]

A staged fight is usually more entertaining than watching two 4th lines playing risk-averse, coach-approved hockey.

Voted neither.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

A staged fight is usually more entertaining than watching two 4th lines playing risk-averse, coach-approved hockey.

Voted neither.

Or teams can try to put together good 4th lines.

 

[Sigh]

Or teams can try to put together good 4th lines.

Oh they try.

 

[Canadiens Ghost]

Both are dumb but staged is dumber. At least in the second option they are showing emotion and you could be led to believe that at least in some instances, the player instigating the fight might believe the hit was dirty.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

the staged fights of the late 90s/early 2000s were the worst. The game sped up, but you had these cavemen ruining every 4th line. Those lines are actually useful now because we’ve largely left those dinosaurs behind. Idk if they could keep up more in the 80s, but towards the end it was just bad NHLers doing some set piece most games. They’d try and avoid damage, wouldn’t really have a reason for it, and idiot fans would lose their minds like they do for fake wrestling. If I could unwatch all the Andrew Peters and Eric Bolton fights I’ve seen I would.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

the staged fights of the late 90s/early 2000s were the worst. The game sped up, but you had these cavemen ruining every 4th line. Those lines are actually useful now because we’ve largely left those dinosaurs behind. Idk if they could keep up more in the 80s, but towards the end it was just bad NHLers doing some set piece most games. They’d try and avoid damage, wouldn’t really have a reason for it, and idiot fans would lose their minds like they do for fake wrestling. If I could unwatch all the Andrew Peters and Eric Bolton fights I’ve seen I would.

Yeah and I feel like most of the fights were boring AF.

 

[banks]

the staged fights of the late 90s/early 2000s were the worst. The game sped up, but you had these cavemen ruining every 4th line. Those lines are actually useful now because we’ve largely left those dinosaurs behind. Idk if they could keep up more in the 80s, but towards the end it was just bad NHLers doing some set piece most games. They’d try and avoid damage, wouldn’t really have a reason for it, and idiot fans would lose their minds like they do for fake wrestling. If I could unwatch all the Andrew Peters and Eric Bolton fights I’ve seen I would.

This post is awesome, and I couldn't agree more. Having those "heavyweight" 4th liners on teams did nothing but ruin 6 minutes of a hockey game, because they couldn't play the sport when they were on the ice. They just trudged around and waited to see if they'd find a partner to drop the gloves with.

It was bad for the fans, bad for the sport, and even bad for those players themselves. Lot's of fighters have come forward saying it was mental agony knowing they might have to fight some other knucklehead any given game.

I don't like fights for clean hits. It's dumb. But you can understand that the players on the ice might not see that it was clean or dirty in the moment, so they act on instinct and defend their own guy. I don't like it but I get it.

Staged fighting never had a point, and the sport is better without it.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

This post is awesome, and I couldn't agree more. Having those "heavyweight" 4th liners on teams did nothing but ruin 6 minutes of a hockey game, because they couldn't play the sport when they were on the ice. They just trudged around and waited to see if they'd find a partner to drop the gloves with.

It was bad for the fans, bad for the sport, and even bad for those players themselves. Lot's of fighters have come forward saying it was mental agony knowing they might have to fight some other knucklehead any given game.

I don't like fights for clean hits. It's dumb. But you can understand that the players on the ice might not see that it was clean or dirty in the moment, so they act on instinct and defend their own guy. I don't like it but I get it.

Staged fighting never had a point, and the sport is better without it.

I had no idea enforcers had mental agony at the prospect of a fight.

In addition to what you wrote I feel like having a side show that has nothing to do with the game discredits the sport. It discredits in two ways. One, it's just lame and makes the sport seem like a joke. And two it had all of these "fans" that said "the only thing I like in hockey are the fights".

This is far worse than WWE wrestling which is basically 100% theater. Hockey is supposed to be real and a sport. Instead they had the WWE break out randomly in the middle of a game that had nothing to do with the game. And yet so many people think it mattered to the actual game because guys get excited on the bench. Like that's proof that team will rip off 3 straight goals. But I guess telling people otherwise is like telling them Santa doesn't exist.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Wanting to get rid of fighting is dumber than both

 

[WarriorofTime]

Do people really not understand the point of staged fighting? It’s trying to create a momentum swing, by bringing your guys into the game and raising their emotions. Players aren’t robots, they have emotions and watching your guy go beat the wheels off your opponent can get them fired up and swing the momentum in their favour.

Pretty wild to me that an entire generation was raised up to become really big, ice boxing face punchers to keep their spot on a roster (stick) with the lure of an NHL salary (carrot) from the time they were in Juniors to dance around with the other face punchers for some vague, undefined, unquantified "momentum" to be spread to the bench that is probably just as negated out by the other team's "momentum". With what we know about CTE and the premature deaths/suicides of so many ex-enforcers, societies 100 years from now will look on such practice as barbaric and animalistic.

 

[koyvoo]

The claim that fights after clean hits are mostly because players didn’t have time to realize it was clean is false.

Or maybe it’s partially true, but what’s being miser is that many times the players DO know that the hit was clean, and will fight anyhow. Especially if the player who received the hit was a star player.

It’s code. Whether anyone agrees that it should exist is another discussion, but it does exist, and the thinking is basically - “yes, the rules do allow you to hit our star player in what is deemed a clean check. Regardless, there will be a price to pay for whoever hit him, because he’s our star and clean or not, we’re coming after you if you go near him”.

I just can’t believe more people don’t understand this.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The claim that fights after clean hits are mostly because players didn’t have time to realize it was clean is false.

Or maybe it’s partially true, but what’s being miser is that many times the players DO know that the hit was clean, and will fight anyhow. Especially if the player who received the hit was a star player.

It’s code. Whether anyone agrees that it should exist is another discussion, but it does exist, and the thinking is basically - “yes, the rules do allow you to hit our star player in what is deemed a clean check. Regardless, there will be a price to pay for whoever hit him, because he’s our star and clean or not, we’re coming after you if you go near him”.

I just can’t believe more people don’t understand this.

Right, people understand it, and that's what makes it dumb as heck.