What would Bobby Orr's stats look like in this era ?

[Canadiens1958]

Coach

The question is, what would Karlsson have looked like on a near-dynasty team in the years immediately after expansion teams suddenly accounted for half the personnel in the league? We have to be realistic. Even Orr has said that, as a young player today, he couldn't get away with half the things he did back then.

Speculative. Now that Guy Boucher is coaching Ottawa, we will get a look at Karlsson playing for a coach who appreciates imaginative offence.

 

[kytem2]

Orr played in a very high scoring era. In his first season (1966-67) the Chicago Blackhawks set an NHL record by scoring 264 goals.

From 1967-68 to 1974-75 (Orr's last full season) 34 NHL teams scored 264+ goals.

 

[The Panther]

Orr played in a very high scoring era.

It's probably more correct to say that he played in a time of mass-expansion, which created a lot of fairly 2nd-rate teams for a number of years that matched Orr's prime. Which of course doesn't explain how no other defenseman put up half his numbers.

But about the 'high-scoring era', it wasn't like today when all teams scored about the same. Take the 1970-71 season, for example:
Goals for
Boston - 399
Minnesota - 191

That's right; Boston scored 2.7 goals-per-game more than did Minnesota. So, in fact, the higher offense was partly a product of Orr's team itself.

 

[Zegras Zebra]

In the perfect situation (good team, one or two dominant forwards, 30 minutes a game) I feel Bobby Orr could consistently put up 80-85 points a season. Slightly more than Karlsson, but not enough to lead the league in most seasons. Of course there would be variables such as modern nutrition's impact on Orr, the better quality goaltending in the modern game, and the coaching system that Orr would be playing in.

 

[BraveCanadian]

In the perfect situation (good team, one or two dominant forwards, 30 minutes a game) I feel Bobby Orr could consistently put up 80-85 points a season. Slightly more than Karlsson, but not enough to lead the league in most seasons. Of course there would be variables such as modern nutrition's impact on Orr, the better quality goaltending in the modern game, and the coaching system that Orr would be playing in.

So on a better team than Karlsson, Bobby Orr would be like Karlsson.. yeah good luck with that.

 

[ResilientBeast]

In the perfect situation (good team, one or two dominant forwards, 30 minutes a game) I feel Bobby Orr could consistently put up 80-85 points a season. Slightly more than Karlsson, but not enough to lead the league in most seasons. Of course there would be variables such as modern nutrition's impact on Orr, the better quality goaltending in the modern game, and the coaching system that Orr would be playing in.

Where are Karlsson's ?
8 Straight 1st All Star Team Selection
3 Straight Hart Trophy Wins
8 Straight Norris Trophy Wins
2 Art Ross Trophies

Because these are the reason's Orr is the second greatest of All Time. Now please don't argue that competition was different, because is everyone was so weak why didn't anyone else dominate like him ever?

 

[Big Phil]

Would Orr's numbers really be all that different? Let's just look at his 6 superhuman years:

1970 - 33-87-120
1971 - 37-102-139
1972 - 37-80-117
1973 - 29-72-101 (63 games)
1974 - 32-90-122
1975 - 46-89-135

Take into account Erik Karlsson had an 82 point year this year with spare parts on his team. Also has had a 74 and 78 point year and is just now entering his prime. I can't see how Orr - a guy who led the NHL in plus/minus 6 times as well - isn't a perennial 100+ point guy every year routinely. He was well above 100 points those years so would there be anyone who would relegate him to 82 points a year? I wouldn't.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Howe would not be the physical force he was in todays game at only 200 lbs.

I know, right? And Mark Messier wouldn't be a physical force in the 90s, either! I mean - the dude was 6'1, 200 lbs, but put him in the 90s when he's going up against clutching, grabbing, 240 lbs enforcers, guys like Lindros and Holik and Otto...there's no possible way he would dominate physically!

oh wait...

 

[Zegras Zebra]

Where are Karlsson's ?
8 Straight 1st All Star Team Selection
3 Straight Hart Trophy Wins
8 Straight Norris Trophy Wins
2 Art Ross Trophies

Because these are the reason's Orr is the second greatest of All Time. Now please don't argue that competition was different, because is everyone was so weak why didn't anyone else dominate like him ever?

1. I do agree that Bobby Orr is the second greatest player of all time.

2. I mostly set my total between 80-85 because I do not believe there would be an NHL coach today that would give him the offensive freedom he was given at his peak in the 70's. He would have to play similar to other offensive defensemen in this era. I feel he would be better both offensively and defensively than Karlsson/ Doughty/ Letang/ Burns so I would see Orr winning Norris trophy's at the same level he did in the 70's, with maybe the occasional Hart depending on the year.

3. There was nobody even remotely close to Orr in his playing days. Now with the way modern athletes train the gap has closed a bit between elite athletes and just very good athletes. This is especially true with goalies since the early 90's. They play much better positionally and are larger than the goalies in the 70's. I'm sure GAA and Save % proves this point.

4. Just to throw it out there, I feel Bobby Orr would play as a winger in the modern game, and would easily be one of the best players in the league if not the best player in the league.

 

[Killion]

1. I do agree that Bobby Orr is the second greatest player of all time.

2. I mostly set my total between 80-85 because I do not believe there would be an NHL coach today that would give him the offensive freedom he was given at his peak in the 70's. He would have to play similar to other offensive defensemen in this era. I feel he would be better both offensively and defensively than Karlsson/ Doughty/ Letang/ Burns so I would see Orr winning Norris trophy's at the same level he did in the 70's, with maybe the occasional Hart depending on the year.

3. There was nobody even remotely close to Orr in his playing days. Now with the way modern athletes train the gap has closed a bit between elite athletes and just very good athletes. This is especially true with goalies since the early 90's. They play much better positionally and are larger than the goalies in the 70's. I'm sure GAA and Save % proves this point.

4. Just to throw it out there, I feel Bobby Orr would play as a winger in the modern game, and would easily be one of the best players in the league if not the best player in the league.

A bit problematical, this speculation WB (and btw, Welcome to hf Boards!)... as Bobby Orr actually changed the way the game was played how can you then "imagine" todays game being played the way it is?... Secondly, he started off as a Forward, converted to Defence in amateur while playing for his hometown Parry Sound team.... Im not convinced he wouldve become the player he did if he'd not been moved back & given all that headroom. License to roam. As a Forward, Winger, he'd have had to play it North-South, Lane Hockey during his formative years. Might well have gotten bored & quit. Lane hockey played well into the 70's. Summit Series, Canada Cups, Hedberg-Hull-Nilsson line, WHA, followed by the Oilers, change was coming granted but still. And your quite right, that discipline from North-South Laneway to Full Cycle has gotten even stricter as the decades rolled on. Really hard to say, without "game changers" like Orr coming along just what the state of play in 2016 might be.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Trend

1. I do agree that Bobby Orr is the second greatest player of all time.

2. I mostly set my total between 80-85 because I do not believe there would be an NHL coach today that would give him the offensive freedom he was given at his peak in the 70's. He would have to play similar to other offensive defensemen in this era. I feel he would be better both offensively and defensively than Karlsson/ Doughty/ Letang/ Burns so I would see Orr winning Norris trophy's at the same level he did in the 70's, with maybe the occasional Hart depending on the year.

3. There was nobody even remotely close to Orr in his playing days. Now with the way modern athletes train the gap has closed a bit between elite athletes and just very good athletes. This is especially true with goalies since the early 90's. They play much better positionally and are larger than the goalies in the 70's. I'm sure GAA and Save % proves this point.

4. Just to throw it out there, I feel Bobby Orr would play as a winger in the modern game, and would easily be one of the best players in the league if not the best player in the league.

Trend is back to playing outstanding skaters on defence since they play roughly 25-33% more minutes per game.

 

[jigglysquishy]

For offense, I find Malkin to be a good comparable.

So ~105 points in a 2015-16 environment.

 

[Killion]

Trend is back to playing outstanding skaters on defence since they play roughly 25-33% more minutes per game.

Ya, and I guess he'd still make the cut at 6'0" - app 200lbs during his NHL career but.... would he have ever gotten the chance C58?.... You saw him play in Junior.... hadnt really filled out... appeared maybe 5'9". 145lbs sopping wet? They push them so fast from Bantam to the Midget Draft & Midget AAA & onto Major Junior A Id bet at that age his size today in comparison to then wouldve been a huge barrier.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Samuel Girard

Ya, and I guess he'd still make the cut at 6'0" - app 200lbs during his NHL career but.... would he have ever gotten the chance C58?.... You saw him play in Junior.... hadnt really filled out... appeared maybe 5'9". 145lbs sopping wet? They push them so fast from Bantam to the Midget Draft & Midget AAA & onto Major Junior A Id bet at that age his size today in comparison to then wouldve been a huge barrier.

Samuel Girard,defenceman, projected second half 1st round, early 2nd, d-man with Shawinigan roughly the same size as Orr in Bantam/Midget.Second year in the Q. Not nearly as skilled nor as impressive as a skater.

 

[Killion]

Samuel Girard,defenceman, projected second half 1st round, early 2nd, d-man with Shawinigan roughly the same size as Orr in Bantam/Midget.Second year in the Q. Not nearly as skilled nor as impressive as a skater.

Ya, 5'9", 160 - creative, ranking anywhere from 12-20 in terms of the 1st Round. He'd have to be pretty spectacular to not wind up in Europe or forever hoping his assignment to the ECHL or possibly the AHL is a road that leads him to the NHL. That or he grows a couple of inches, gains about 50lbs. Back in Orr's day, a guy like Girard given a real shot, opportunity, groomed, taught to play the triangles, deal with the size differentials. Clearly has the "mind", brain, vision. Might be a Late Bloomer ala Martin St.Louis but... When size & weight trump innate abilities, skills, Houston? We have a problem.

 

[Zegras Zebra]

A bit problematical, this speculation WB (and btw, Welcome to hf Boards!)... as Bobby Orr actually changed the way the game was played how can you then "imagine" todays game being played the way it is?... Secondly, he started off as a Forward, converted to Defence in amateur while playing for his hometown Parry Sound team.... Im not convinced he wouldve become the player he did if he'd not been moved back & given all that headroom. License to roam. As a Forward, Winger, he'd have had to play it North-South, Lane Hockey during his formative years. Might well have gotten bored & quit. Lane hockey played well into the 70's. Summit Series, Canada Cups, Hedberg-Hull-Nilsson line, WHA, followed by the Oilers, change was coming granted but still. And your quite right, that discipline from North-South Laneway to Full Cycle has gotten even stricter as the decades rolled on. Really hard to say, without "game changers" like Orr coming along just what the state of play in 2016 might be.

Thanks for the welcome (I've enjoyed myself so far). I never considered the fact that the modern game would probably be different if Bobby Orr never laced up his skates in the NHL. I'm intrigued by how this would generally change hockey history as there may be no Paul Coffey, Phil Housley, Scott Neidermeyer, etc. without Bobby Orr. It is possible that one of these defenseman, or another would be the pioneer for the modern offensive defenseman though. I also haven't given much thought to the fact that Orr's speed was a big factor for his offensive numbers, as he was able to blow past defenders on the way to the net, but still be able to get back in time to actually play defence.

All in all, this is a very hypothetical topic with no real right answer, and many variables that different people place importance in which would affect their answer.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Overall Skating

Thanks for the welcome (I've enjoyed myself so far). I never considered the fact that the modern game would probably be different if Bobby Orr never laced up his skates in the NHL. I'm intrigued by how this would generally change hockey history as there may be no Paul Coffey, Phil Housley, Scott Neidermeyer, etc. without Bobby Orr. It is possible that one of these defenseman, or another would be the pioneer for the modern offensive defenseman though. I also haven't given much thought to the fact that Orr's speed was a big factor for his offensive numbers, as he was able to blow past defenders on the way to the net, but still be able to get back in time to actually play defence.

All in all, this is a very hypothetical topic with no real right answer, and many variables that different people place importance in which would affect their answer.

Not only speed but the best overall hockey skater I have seen in well over 50 years.

 

[Killion]

Thanks for the welcome (I've enjoyed myself so far). I never considered the fact that the modern game would probably be different if Bobby Orr never laced up his skates in the NHL. I'm intrigued by how this would generally change hockey history as there may be no Paul Coffey, Phil Housley, Scott Neidermeyer, etc. without Bobby Orr. It is possible that one of these defenseman, or another would be the pioneer for the modern offensive defenseman though. I also haven't given much thought to the fact that Orr's speed was a big factor for his offensive numbers, as he was able to blow past defenders on the way to the net, but still be able to get back in time to actually play defence.

All in all, this is a very hypothetical topic with no real right answer, and many variables that different people place importance in which would affect their answer.

Yes, he was the greatest skater Ive ever seen both laterally and straight ahead. It was like there was no 2nd, 3rd or 4th gear, he just... moved.... and I experienced this first hand as a Goalie facing him.... Just blew past guys who were tremendous skaters themselves seemingly without effort.... Rushing Defenceman, that really wasnt anything all that new when he broke-in. Long train coming. Before even Shore, after with Tim Horton who initially was a Rusher (Bill Gadsby hit in his sophomore year broke his jaw & leg, never regained his lateral speed) amongst others; Red Kelly, Pierre Pilote. Orr however, he put it into Hyperdrive.

Rather like Bobby Hull & his Grand Slam Slapshot that revolutionized the game, every Kid Defenceman attempting to mimic Orr, given the freedom to do so at the amateur & Junior levels. New Super-Weapon. Previously, most Defenceman not even allowed to cross the opponents Blue-Line, never carry the puck. Orr was like Nitrous Oxide poured into the carburetor of a late 60's 70's Funny or Muscle Car. Supercharged. Even the pro's (Brad Park for eg) tried to copy him. With Freddie Shero & the rise of the Short Shift Game of 45 seconds or less, Defensive Pairings still a throwback, Defenders out there for 4-5-8 minutes at a go-round. You couldnt do that unless you had an Orr who also had the stamina & oblivion to pain of a Bobby Hull. Players like that.... not Cookie Cutter.... Grab the game by its throat & shake. Changes everything. Takes guts according to some, according to me it simply takes hubris based on experience... How much can you get away with?

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

In the perfect situation (good team, one or two dominant forwards, 30 minutes a game) I feel Bobby Orr could consistently put up 80-85 points a season. Slightly more than Karlsson, but not enough to lead the league in most seasons. Of course there would be variables such as modern nutrition's impact on Orr, the better quality goaltending in the modern game, and the coaching system that Orr would be playing in.

I agree Orr can't play as freely as he did but when you have a player at that talent level , with the ability to completely control the game sometimes you just have to let them play

I'm only 18 so I'm not gunna act like I've seen Orr a bunch but I've seen a few games on nhl centre ice / YouTube and s plethora of highlights and documentaries and I've never seen a player dominate a game like he did I was absolutely blown away

 

[authentic]

In the perfect situation (good team, one or two dominant forwards, 30 minutes a game) I feel Bobby Orr could consistently put up 80-85 points a season. Slightly more than Karlsson, but not enough to lead the league in most seasons. Of course there would be variables such as modern nutrition's impact on Orr, the better quality goaltending in the modern game, and the coaching system that Orr would be playing in.

This is very plausible. Expecting anything more than that would just be unrealistic. Of course he would have better defense than Karlsson.

 

[BobbyAwe]

Ya, and I guess he'd still make the cut at 6'0" - app 200lbs during his NHL career but.... would he have ever gotten the chance C58?.... You saw him play in Junior.... hadnt really filled out... appeared maybe 5'9". 145lbs sopping wet? They push them so fast from Bantam to the Midget Draft & Midget AAA & onto Major Junior A Id bet at that age his size today in comparison to then wouldve been a huge barrier.

More like 5'11 180-185lbs. at his best. He was 175lbs. as an 18 year old rookie. I know he is listed on most sites at 200lbs. but that might have been what he weighed in his last couple years when his weight may have gone up as he wasn't as mobile and able to practice as much? Or it could just be an inaccuracy. Many given player's weights are way off.

 

[BobbyAwe]

Some of your comments are legit, but it would be folly and historically inaccurate to state that Orr couldn't do or make even the best defenders look silly on occasion.

Certainly some of his stats came against inferior competition (this is true of all superstar players of every era and every sport), but there were other times when he even made the best look foolish.

Check out how he turns Brad Park (since you specifically mentioned his name) into a turnstile at this clip starting at 44 seconds in and following...and watch the replay...Orr is the only one who has a clue as to what is happening. He had lightening quick reflexes that would excel against any competition in every and any era.

I hate to say it but many of those highlight goals would have been easy saves for the average NHL goalie today.

 

[billybudd]

Ya, and I guess he'd still make the cut at 6'0" - app 200lbs during his NHL career but.... would he have ever gotten the chance C58?.... You saw him play in Junior.... hadnt really filled out... appeared maybe 5'9". 145lbs sopping wet? They push them so fast from Bantam to the Midget Draft & Midget AAA & onto Major Junior A Id bet at that age his size today in comparison to then wouldve been a huge barrier.

Kris Letang was roughly that in juniors (he's grown and put on a ton of muscle since then) and played junior right at the tail end of the Popovic/Cross approach to filling out the blueline.

I doubt Orr would get moved to a different position, but would he have fallen in the draft if he was Letang's exact age? Maybe. There were a few years there where teams seemed to think it was way more important that a D was big than that he could play.

 

[UnrefinedCrude]

...as Bobby Orr actually changed the way the game was played ...

Is this actually true though?

There were rushing defensemen before him too. No one as dominant or freewheeling, to be sure, but how many came after?

Coffey, Karlsson. No one else you could really say fit his mould.

He was too much of an outlier. He dominated the game, but the hefty majority of rushing defenders after him were more like the guys who came before him than they were like him.

He was too good to emulate, I don't think the game modelled anything after him. Nobody else could come close enough to what he did for it to become a template.

 

[Arto Kilponen]

If it is true that people are as good as they have worked and trained for (that is, "gifted" just gives a jump start, nothing else) then I really think that Gretzky et co. wouldn't be that good in today's NHL. Yes, Gretzky could still be the best players, but I really don't think that he would be way better than for example Crosby.