What will it take for Matthews to be the best Leaf ever?

[Fatass]

All I'm saying is the modern bar isn't that high for him, but considering the reputational hole he's dug for himself yeah he might have to win a cup, full stop before anyone will anoint him the greatest Leaf ever.

For us older folk who watched the great 60’s Leafs that is the modern era too. Plus the thread is about what Mathews needs to do to be the “all time” greatest Leafs. Imo he’s got a long way to go to join the group at the top.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'm just going to speak for the masses and say this kind of derision is not appreciated.

Fair enough, but neither is Toronto pretending to be equal to Montreal as a hockey city, coming from a Montrealer. And Toronto does it all the time.

 

[Stephen]

For us older folk who watched the great 60’s Leafs that is the modern era too. Plus the thread is about what Mathews needs to do to be the “all time” greatest Leafs. Imo he’s got a long way to go to join the group at the top.

Well, yes and no and kind of.

Emotionally, definitely. I don't think the fanbase has a big library of Matthews memories in the playoffs that are too enjoyable. 9 years and a whole lot of nothing so he's at a deficit now.

In terms of Stanley Cup wins, it's hard to compare the old era of two round Stanley Cups in the Original Six because you were essentially champion having advanced to the conference finals.

In comparison to the post expansion greats, most of Sittler, Sundin, Gilmour and Clark only had 1-2 big runs that cemented their legacy. So he could theoretically go to the ECF the next 2 years and he's matched most of them. That said, I go back to my original point that he's dug such a big reputational deficit he would probably have to win a cup outright to erase a lot of the "growing pains."

 

[Fatass]

Well, yes and no and kind of.

Emotionally, definitely. I don't think the fanbase has a big library of Matthews memories in the playoffs that are too enjoyable. 9 years and a whole lot of nothing so he's at a deficit now.

In terms of Stanley Cup wins, it's hard to compare the old era of two round Stanley Cups in the Original Six because you were essentially champion having advanced to the conference finals.

In comparison to the post expansion greats, most of Sittler, Sundin, Gilmour and Clark only had 1-2 big runs that cemented their legacy. So he could theoretically go to the ECF the next 2 years and he's matched most of them. That said, I go back to my original point that he's dug such a big reputational deficit he would probably have to win a cup outright to erase a lot of the "growing pains."

The league was harder in the original six days. There were a ton of players in the AHL who would be NHLers (obviously) with 32 teams. Every player had to be great to even make the national league. They had to be tough as nails too. Imo Matthews would have been great in the 60’s for skill but would he be tough enough? I don’t know if Matthews is mentally tough enough to make the sacrifice.
Will Matthews sacrifice his teeth? His face? Watching him in the playoffs big boy hockey im not too sure he will.
If he did go to that extent he’d be close to unstoppable. He’s 230 pounds! He’s got elite skill and a great shot. He should dominate big boy hockey. Why doesn’t he?

 

[BostonBob]

Give Justin Bieber the deciding vote.

 

[MoneyManny]

Hardly anyone on this list has won a cup and if you ask the question people will often say answers that aren't cup winners given it's been 60 years. Matthews will be the greatest Leaf ever if he stays here the rest or majority of his career going forward. Regardless of winning a cup, which I still think they will.

I disagree. The Leafs won 13 championships and the greatest Leaf ever can't be anyone past 1967 by default.

Austin can't leapfrog over people who won it all just because he scored lots of regular season goals. That's not what greatness means, IMHO.

 

[MoneyManny]

The league was harder in the original six days. There were a ton of players in the AHL who would be NHLers (obviously) with 32 teams. Every player had to be great to even make the national league. They had to be tough as nails too. Imo Matthews would have been great in the 60’s for skill but would he be tough enough? I don’t know if Matthews is mentally tough enough to make the sacrifice.
Will Matthews sacrifice his teeth? His face? Watching him in the playoffs big boy hockey im not too sure he will.
If he did go to that extent he’d be close to unstoppable. He’s 230 pounds! He’s got elite skill and a great shot. He should dominate big boy hockey. Why doesn’t he?

He already sacrificed his hair and it's done nothing! How do you expect him to sacrifice that sweet little baby face too?

 

[GeeoffBrown]

If Matthews wins a Conn Smythe, all past failures will be forgotten

 

[Video Nasty]

Choking a few more times in the playoffs.

 

[BenchBrawl]

If Matthews wins a Conn Smythe, all past failures will be forgotten

If

 

[jbeck5]

Isn’t this a Stanley Cup sub-forum. Can we take the Leafs threads elsewhere. Jesus. This has zero to do about the playoffs.

Nor is this a Leafs sub forum. This should be on the leafs board.

General questions or topics of the NHL should be here, or when the subject spans multiple teams.

If the topic is only about one specific team, why isn't it on the leafs board? If people want to discuss the Leafs, they can go there!

If you want non leaf fans opinions, they're welcome on the leafs board. Individual boards aren't restricted to only fans of the team, they're restricted to that team for subject matter. Nothing saying neutral fans or fans who don't like the Leafs cant go to the Leafs board to discuss the Leafs.

NHL board should be for NHL subjects or subjects that span across multiple teams.

 

[Plural]

I think he needs to win a Cup.

 

[blundluntman]

Matthews may be one of the most talented players in the Franchise history, he may even have the numbers, but greatness and talent aren't the same thing.

I'd rather have Doug Gilmour than Matthews all things considered. Sundin too.

 

[HockeyVirus]

If they won game 7 that is likely enough. Not sure what people actually expect, the Leafs have made it to the ECF and no further since 1967. In fact, the Leafs franchise has NEVER won more than 3 playoff rounds.

I don't think Matthews needs to win to be the goat. That is a reflection on the Leafs as a franchise. He will hold almost all records, and has basically gone as far in the playoffs as any great.

When you are arguing about players in the 40's, 50's, and 60's as all time greats I just can't buy it. The game has changed far too much.

So I guess the answer is, keep doing what he is doing and finish final four

 

[Space umpire]

I agree the most important metric is the playoff success; but Ovechkin for example was already considered the greatest Capital before 2018. I’m not saying Matthews is on Ovi’s level, but there’s a good chances he ends up being the #2 or #3 best goalscorer in history. I don’t think Leafs have had a greater talent than that. Mats Sundin Never won a cup and he’s still so highly adored.

The Capitals are a newer franchise. I can easily put more than 10 names of Leaf greats I’d rank ahead of Matthews whose careers started before the capitals ever played a game.
You all overrate Matthews. He can get open and has one of the best set up passers in the league as his linemates. In the playoffs when space gets tighter he doesn’t take the punishment to get open.
The funny part is most leaf fans blame Marner. Teams are sending 2 guys at him because they know Matthews has been neutered. And he has know to pass too
The best part is a D, he’s stat padding and with the TML media strength he could get a Selke.
Watch him. In the defensive zone he cheats high in the slot or circles which leads to many steals and much praise from fans and press. It also needs to many MANY situations where the 2 Leaf D lose the board battle to the 3 opposing forwards. And just like blaming Marner for Matthews dried up playoff success. The blame the Defense there instead of the who left the spot.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

It's funny how a guy like Sundin (although his tenure wasn't all roses) garners so much more respect than a guy like Matthews..Just shows that all Toronto fans care about is an honest effort out there. It's gonna take some real heroics for AM34 to get up there with those names in the fans eyes regardless of how many regular season goals he scores

 

[Space umpire]

If Lebron James had never won in Cleveland, he'd still be the best Cav in history, even if they had won this year. Winning a Championship =/= best. This is a childlike mentality.

Because he gave it everything he had. Nobody can say that about Matthews.

 

[Space umpire]

Nor is this a Leafs sub forum. This should be on the leafs board.

General questions or topics of the NHL should be here, or when the subject spans multiple teams.

If the topic is only about one specific team, why isn't it on the leafs board? If people want to discuss the Leafs, they can go there!

If you want non leaf fans opinions, they're welcome on the leafs board. Individual boards aren't restricted to only fans of the team, they're restricted to that team for subject matter. Nothing saying neutral fans or fans who don't like the Leafs cant go to the Leafs board to discuss the Leafs.

NHL board should be for NHL subjects or subjects that span across multiple teams.

I think you’re wrong. This is a good topic for this board and the discussion may end up proving it.

 

[GMR]

I didn’t realize the Leafs didn’t have players before the original six. That list is a joke.

Apps, Conacher, Broda, Kennedy, Sittler, Sundin would all be ahead of Keon.

 

[Dead Coyote]

If he stays for 10+ years and continues to put up this pace or gets even better than I could see him becoming one of the greatest, if he has statlines like Gilmour did than I think fans will probably forgive him even if he doesn't win. If he stays and doesn't put up points like Gilmour did than maybe he gets ranked higher than Sundin or Sittler, but probably not.

If he wins, he's instantly forgiven.

But those seem pretty unlikely.

 

[Legion34]

The greatest Leaf without a cup maybe.

Can you be called the greatest of any game you haven't beat?

You do realize about half the league has never won a cup right. Do those teams just not have a greatest player of all time?

 

[Legion34]

If he stays for 10+ years and continues to put up this pace or gets even better than I could see him becoming one of the greatest, if he has statlines like Gilmour did than I think fans will probably forgive him even if he doesn't win. If he stays and doesn't put up points like Gilmour did than maybe he gets ranked higher than Sundin or Sittler, but probably not.

If he wins, he's instantly forgiven.

But those seem pretty unlikely.

Matthews already has 3 rockets and a hart. He is unquestionably a better leaf than Gilmour

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

DNA has to change

 

[jigglysquishy]

You do realize about half the league has never won a cup right. Do those teams just not have a greatest player of all time?

Leafs have won 13 though. Why would we exclude the 40 year period where the Leafs were the best team in the league?

 

[Dead Coyote]

Matthews already has 3 rockets and a hart. He is unquestionably a better leaf than Gilmour

Gilmour has a lot less time played, a lot more playoff success, and played in an era with guys like Gretzky who were a lot harder to get trophies from, and was a finalist for the Hart.

I personally don't believe that he should be as highly rated as he is, but there's an argument to be made for sure.