What will it take for Matthews to be the best Leaf ever?

[jigglysquishy]

That’s very surprising to me. Toronto has always been one of the wealthiest places in Canada. You’d think they’d be able outright buy superstars before the cap era, apparently not…

The spend-to-win era was relatively short. Prior to the 1995 CBA UFA as we know it today didn't really exist. Certainly, prior to the WHA and the draft, you were limited to what you could sign young players in their career. And before the NHLPA was established the owners did what they wanted.

Most of this time was in the uber-cheap Ballard era (1961-1990). The Leafs did try to spend in the late 90s/early 00s, but with 31 as a UFA age it limits your options.

 

[PattyLafontaine]

Have a franchised coffee place named after him.

 

[Fatass]

It's obvious just spending time on Hfboards that Leafs fans, who fancy themselves living in the Mecca of Hockey, don't know shit about their team's history.

So it's even worse than your average joes on the street not knowing, it's fans spending their entire days on a Hockey forum, not knowing.

I think a diehard Leafs fan, with a knowledge of hockey history, knows Montreal is the Mecca of hockey.

 

[Fatass]

Have a franchised coffee place named after him.

Tim Horton started Tim Hortons.

 

[FerrisRox]

Matthews is expected to become #1 all time goalscoror for the Leafs. According to an article, he is currently the fifth best all time Leaf, and he still has half of a career left.

Leaf all time rankings:

View attachment 1042730

This got me thinking, will Matthews become the greatest Maple Leaf in history? And what will it take?. I’d say a trip to the Stanley cup final along with a few more Rockets or one Hart will do it. It’s a 32 team league now, but playoff success will still be vital.

Who's list of "All Time Best" Maple Leafs is this?

Teeder Kennedy is arguably the greatest Maple Leaf of all time and he's not even on this top ten. This list is a joke.

Teeder spent his entire 14-year career with the Maple Leafs, served as the captain for eight seasons and won 5 Stanley Cups and he won a Hart Trophy too. Kennedy holds the franchise record for most points in the Stanley Cup Final. Personally, I have Kennedy as the best Maple Leaf ever. I could see an argument for Dave Keon, but the rest of this top ten couldn't hold his jock strap. I mean, on what planet would Darryl Sittler be a better Maple Leaf than Teeder?

 

[FerrisRox]

Wtf is that list?

Plenty of Toronto greats missing.

Apps Sr, Conacher, Cameron, Broda, Kennedy, Horton ... At first I thought it was just a list of scorers but then I saw Bower in there.

Broda won five Cups for Toronto. It's absurd to have Johnny Bower ranked ahead of him.

 

[Washed Up 29YearOld]

He just has to BeLeaf

 

[Jimmy Apollo]

The greatest Leaf without a cup maybe.

Can you be called the greatest of any game you haven't beat?

Hardly anyone on this list has won a cup and if you ask the question people will often say answers that aren't cup winners given it's been 60 years. Matthews will be the greatest Leaf ever if he stays here the rest or majority of his career going forward. Regardless of winning a cup, which I still think they will.

 

[NVious]

Hardly anyone on this list has won a cup and if you ask the question people will often say answers that aren't cup winners given it's been 60 years. Matthews will be the greatest Leaf ever if he stays here the rest or majority of his career going forward. Regardless of winning a cup, which I still think they will.

Maybe to ahistorical casuals.

No serious Leafs fan would ever consider Matthews the "best," most talented sure, but talent doesn't mean shit if it doesn't produce any sort of result.

Anyways, Matthews has too many character flaws to be considered the best too, he's not intense, he's more sassy and aloof, he's not some guy who loves Hockey and trains like a mad man, he's a greedy fashionista, he's not a winner or leader, he comes off as arrogant and is a perpetual loser.

 

[Jimmy Apollo]

Maybe to ahistorical casuals.

No serious Leafs fan would ever consider Matthews the "best," most talented sure, but talent doesn't mean shit if it doesn't produce any sort of result.

Anyways, Matthews has too many character flaws to be considered the best too, he's not intense, he's more sassy and aloof, he's not some guy who loves Hockey and trains like a mad man, he's a greedy fashionista, he's not a winner or leader, he comes off as arrogant and is a perpetual loser.

If Lebron James had never won in Cleveland, he'd still be the best Cav in history, even if they had won this year. Winning a Championship =/= best. This is a childlike mentality.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

If Lebron James had never won in Cleveland, he'd still be the best Cav in history, even if they had won this year. Winning a Championship =/= best. This is a childlike mentality.

Auston Matthews =/= LeBron
Leafs =/= Cavs

Matthews will NEVER be the greatest Leaf of all time. Thank God because we've gone through enough embarrassment at this point.

 

[Stephen]

Leafs fans have an embarrassing lack of knowledge about their rich history, on average, I must say.

Not to toot my own horn, but even your average Montreal fan is aware of who Howie Morenz and Aurèle Joliat are. It's not just about Maurice Richard, Jean Béliveau and Guy Lafleur.

Meanwhile I'm not entirely sure the Leaf fan on the street knows who Syl Apps Sr is.

What a humble and friendly way to start a conversation.

Matthews is a different kind of superstar player that we’ve really ever had. Post amateur-entry draft, homegrown, legitimate glamour superstar who wins awards. So based on this alone, he has been comfortably cruising towards being the best player in Leafs history.

The caveat here is championship era Leafs teams generally were not built on superstar power. So if you compared the 40s and 60s era teams you’ll find a cast of greats who did it by depth and committee and two way play more than superstar fueled wins.

 

[NVious]

If Lebron James had never won in Cleveland, he'd still be the best Cav in history, even if they had won this year. Winning a Championship =/= best. This is a childlike mentality.

Totally different, Lebron James dominated the league for a long time on awful teams, Matthews had one year where he dominated the league with a great team and he never did with it in 10 decades.

Most talented/=best.

He is literally outscored by Sundin/Gilmour/Clark/Sittler when it comes to the playoffs despite playing on a more offensively stacked team than those guys had. So while he is the most talented and even best at scoring when it doesn't matter, he is not the best Leaf ever and no serious Leaf fan can think this.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Matthews is a different kind of superstar player that we’ve really ever had. Post amateur-entry draft, homegrown, legitimate glamour superstar who wins awards. So based on this alone, he has been comfortably cruising towards being the best player in Leafs history.
.

Why would we discount 50% of the Leafs history and literally every single Cup Finals appearence?

What's the argument for Matthews over Conacher in the regular season? Just birth year?

Is Matthews a top 25 playoff performer in Leafs history?

 

[Stephen]

Totally different, Lebron James dominated the league for a long time on awful teams, Matthews had one year where he dominated the league with a great team and he never did with it in 10 decades.

Most talented/=best.

He is literally outscored by Sundin/Gilmour/Clark/Sittler when it comes to the playoffs despite playing on a more offensively stacked team than those guys had. So while he is the most talented and even best at scoring when it doesn't matter, he is not the best Leaf ever and no serious Leaf fan can think this.

Matthews has certainly earned his criticism for being a playoff dud, I don't think anyone can really mount much of a counter argument for 9 years of his track record.

But some perspective is also needed when we compare him to Sundin, Gilmour, Clark and Sittler.

Right now, Matthews is 27. Quinn era Mats Sundin didn't really start blossoming as our captain and playoff leader until he was about 28 in 1999, and his individual playoff production was not earth shattering... but it was a different era.

Wendel Clark broke out as a legendary playoff performer for us in 1993 and 1994. He was about 27-28 when the party started and ended. Up until then he spent about 8 years playing in only 18 total playoff games because the Leafs were terrible.

Doug Gilmour was 28 and 29 during the big 1993 and 1994 conference finals runs, turning 30 by the conclusion of the 1994 playoffs and was never a really big factor again.

Darryl Sittler was more of a home grown superstar, but his only 2 runs in the playoffs came at 26 and 27 and his career playoff totals aren't earth shattering.

So really Auston could change his whole reputation with a couple of good runs and some big goals in big moments. If he had a better series vs Florida and we had won, good start to the Carolina series, he would have been well on his way to matching any of our other modern greats.

 

[Fatass]

What a humble and friendly way to start a conversation.

Matthews is a different kind of superstar player that we’ve really ever had. Post amateur-entry draft, homegrown, legitimate glamour superstar who wins awards. So based on this alone, he has been comfortably cruising towards being the best player in Leafs history.

The caveat here is championship era Leafs teams generally were not built on superstar power. So if you compared the 40s and 60s era teams you’ll find a cast of greats who did it by depth and committee and two way play more than superstar fueled wins.

Leafs of the 60’s had several players who led that club to multiple Cups. Keon, the Big M, Armstrong. The league was a lot tougher then too. Only six teams. Guys could all play both ends of thrive or they were in the minors. Matthews is a great regular season player. But they only part of being an all time great. Playoffs are the other part.

 

[NVious]

Matthews has certainly earned his criticism for being a playoff dud, I don't think anyone can really mount much of a counter argument for 9 years of his track record.

But some perspective is also needed when we compare him to Sundin, Gilmour, Clark and Sittler.

Right now, Matthews is 27. Quinn era Mats Sundin didn't really start blossoming as our captain and playoff leader until he was about 28 in 1999, and his individual playoff production was not earth shattering... but it was a different era.

Wendel Clark broke out as a legendary playoff performer for us in 1993 and 1994. He was about 27-28 when the party started and ended. Up until then he spent about 8 years playing in only 18 total playoff games because the Leafs were terrible.

Doug Gilmour was 28 and 29 during the big 1993 and 1994 conference finals runs, turning 30 by the conclusion of the 1994 playoffs and was never a really big factor again.

Darryl Sittler was more of a home grown superstar, but his only 2 runs in the playoffs came at 26 and 27 and his career playoff totals aren't earth shattering.

So really Auston could change his whole reputation with a couple of good runs and some big goals in big moments. If he had a better series vs Florida and we had won, good start to the Carolina series, he would have been well on his way to matching any of our other modern greats.

He could for sure, but there are two psychological problems I believe will make it very hard to do so:

The sheer amount of failure and negative talk he has to have on some level internalized, after all that demoralizing losing that the others didn't do, does he even believe in himself?
His own lack of killer mentality and lack of accountability, Matthews has never struck me as someone like Sid/McDrai or Mack who eat/breathe/sleep Hockey, not killing yourself every summer puts you at a severe disadvantage when it comes to the best in the world, does he have that in him?

 

[3074326]

Totally different, Lebron James dominated the league for a long time on awful teams, Matthews had one year where he dominated the league with a great team and he never did with it in 10 decades.

Most talented/=best.

He is literally outscored by Sundin/Gilmour/Clark/Sittler when it comes to the playoffs despite playing on a more offensively stacked team than those guys had. So while he is the most talented and even best at scoring when it doesn't matter, he is not the best Leaf ever and no serious Leaf fan can think this.

Not only that, the Cavs previously best player was Mark Price. Great player, but the Cavs don't have the history the Leafs had. Lebron basically had to suit up and then everyone knew.

I mean, I've taken part in debates with other Cavs fan (I am a Cavs fan) about who the second best Cavs player of all time is. It's Mark Price, Kyrie Irving, or Donovan Mitchell. Mitchell just finished his second season with the team and most people forget Kyrie played for the Cavs (not Cavs fans though, he hit the biggest shot in the history of the team). lol

 

[Stephen]

Leafs of the 60’s had several players who led that club to multiple Cups. Keon, the Big M, Armstrong. The league was a lot tougher then too. Only six teams. Guys could all play both ends of thrive or they were in the minors. Matthews is a great regular season player. But they only part of being an all time great. Playoffs are the other part.

Well, if we want to talk about the 60s era Leafs, they're a team that forged a dynasty ahead of a team like the Chicago Blackhawks who had more top end star power but not the same level of depth. It's not a perfect analogy since the Hawks got one cup, but they probably underachieved relative to Hull, Mikita, Pilote, Hall, etc. Matthews would be closer to a Bobby Hull on the Hawks vs the deeper Leaf rosters, better two way play, veteran savvy and platoon goaltending.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Well, if we want to talk about the 60s era Leafs, they're a team that forged a dynasty ahead of a team like the Chicago Blackhawks who had more top end star power but not the same level of depth. It's not a perfect analogy since the Hawks got one cup, but they probably underachieved relative to Hull, Mikita, Pilote, Hall, etc. Matthews would be closer to a Bobby Hull on the Hawks vs the deeper Leaf rosters, better two way play, veteran savvy and platoon goaltending.

Hull was considered the clear cut best of his era. No one born within +-5 years of him really has any argument.

Matthews isn't a top 5 player of his age bracket.

 

[Fatass]

Well, if we want to talk about the 60s era Leafs, they're a team that forged a dynasty ahead of a team like the Chicago Blackhawks who had more top end star power but not the same level of depth. It's not a perfect analogy since the Hawks got one cup, but they probably underachieved relative to Hull, Mikita, Pilote, Hall, etc. Matthews would be closer to a Bobby Hull on the Hawks vs the deeper Leaf rosters, better two way play, veteran savvy and platoon goaltending.

Regular season Matthews is great. But to be an all time great he will need to lead the Leafs to a Cup.

 

[Stephen]

Hull was considered the clear cut best of his era. No one born within +-5 years of him really has any argument.

Matthews isn't a top 5 player of his age bracket.

I only have Original 6 teams from the 60s to work with, so relax.

 

[BenchBrawl]

What a humble and friendly way to start a conversation.

Matthews is a different kind of superstar player that we’ve really ever had. Post amateur-entry draft, homegrown, legitimate glamour superstar who wins awards. So based on this alone, he has been comfortably cruising towards being the best player in Leafs history.

The caveat here is championship era Leafs teams generally were not built on superstar power. So if you compared the 40s and 60s era teams you’ll find a cast of greats who did it by depth and committee and two way play more than superstar fueled wins.

Syl Apps Sr. was a superstar for sure. I don't disagree that Matthews has a shot to become the greatest Leaf of all-time, but he shot himself in the foot with his lackluster playoff performances.

As for my friendliness, I respect a lot of Toronto fans, but the mass needs to wake up from their collective amnesia. This is not some sunbelt city we are talking about.

 

[Stephen]

Regular season Matthews is great. But to be an all time great he will need to lead the Leafs to a Cup.

All I'm saying is the modern bar isn't that high for him, but considering the reputational hole he's dug for himself yeah he might have to win a cup, full stop before anyone will anoint him the greatest Leaf ever.

 

[Stephen]

Syl Apps Sr. was a superstar for sure. I don't disagree that Matthews has a shot to become the greatest Leaf of all-time, but he shot himself in the foot with his lackluster playoff performances.

As for my friendliness, I respect a lot of Toronto fans, but the mass needs to wake up from their collective amnesia.

I'm just going to speak for the masses and say this kind of derision is not appreciated.