Player Discussion What went wrong with Galchenyuk's and Kotkaniemi's development and progress that won't go wrong with Slafkovsky's?

[WeThreeKings]

History will repeat itself,

We missed out on Brady T and regret it,

We missed out on Wright and will regret it,

Slaf will end up being Chucky 2.0

The franchise is starving for a 1C and then pass up on one

Makes zero sense

He didn't play like a 1C. Watch his playoffs and tell me you wouldn't scream at your TV watching that player do absolutely jack shit when the chips are down.

People crucified Pacioretty and he showed 100x the effort Wright did.

 

[KevSkillz4]

History will repeat itself,

We missed out on Brady T and regret it,

We missed out on Wright and will regret it,

Slaf will end up being Chucky 2.0

The franchise is starving for a 1C and then pass up on one

Makes zero sense

Galchenyuk don't have the hockey IQ and skating ability of Slafkovsky, Slafkovsky is a winger too and not a C.

Slafkovsky have more power in his game than Galchenyuk and KK, more talented, better skating ability, more physical and bigger.

 

[Beendair Donedat]

I don't know much about amateur hockey or player development. Other than the obvious fact that Bergevin-Timmins-Therrien are gone and there is a new regime in place I'd like to know if there has been a reasonable retrospective analysis of what went wrong with Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi and what the Habs will be doing differently or should look out for when it comes to our new boy Slafkovsky.

Galchenyuk

GP

G

A

P

PPG

∆ PPG

GP

G

A

P

PPG

∆ PPG

2013​

48​

9​

18​

27​

0.56​

5​

1​

2​

3​

0.60​

2014​

65​

13​

18​

31​

0.48​

-0.09​

5​

2​

1​

3​

0.60​

0.00​

2015​

80​

20​

26​

46​

0.58​

0.10​

12​

1​

3​

4​

0.33​

-0.27​

2016​

82​

30​

26​

56​

0.68​

0.11​

2017​

61​

17​

27​

44​

0.72​

0.04​

6​

0​

3​

3​

0.50​

0.17​

2018​

82​

19​

32​

51​

0.62​

-0.10​

Totals

418​

108​

147​

255​

0.61​

0.05​

28​

4​

9​

13​

0.46​

-0.14​

Kotkanimi

GP

G

A

P

PPG

∆ PPG

GP

G

A

P

PPG

∆ PPG

2019​

79​

11​

23​

34​

0.43​

2020​

36​

6​

2​

8​

0.22​

-0.21​

10​

4​

4​

0.40​

2021​

56​

5​

15​

20​

0.36​

0.13​

19​

5​

3​

8​

0.42​

0.02​

Canes 2022

66​

12​

17​

29​

0.44​

0.08​

14

0

2

2​

0.14

- 0.28

Totals

237​

34​

57​

91​

0.38​

-0.05​

43​

9​

5​

14​

0.33​

-0.07​

Made the above table (instead of finishing a report for a client...) to see what happened on a statistical level.

We see that Galchenyuk started pretty strong with his line along Eller and Gallagher and, in hindsight, had a healthy-enough career with us. In his final season his 51 points and 0.6ppg isn't anything to scoff at - his career derailed afterwards so it could be the organisation cut ties with him just as they felt he was going the wrong way. He never went above and beyond though and his progression was minimal, the change in his PPG from his first season compared to his entire tenure was a measly 0.05 PPG. The difference between his peak PPG and his Habs career PPG is 0.11, and his peak PPG and his first season PPG is 0.16 (not bad!).

I think he didn't develop as fast as the Habs wanted and in his final season he slipped a bit so the Habs thought it was best to cut ties with him before it was too late. Turned out to be the right move, making the best of a mediocre 3OA pick.

Moving onto Kotkaniemi, he started well and had a major slip in his sophomore season. He didn't recover well enough from that and was poached away by the Hurricanes. He looks like something went terribly wrong somewhere. Next year will be pivotal for him. The Canes are hoping he hits 0.6 PPG and proves the haters and doubters wrong. They'll give him two more years and if he doesn't improve to being at least a 0.7PPG player they'll probably buy him out while his buy-out penalty is 1/3rd of his cap hit.

So do we have any theories what went wrong with these players and what the Habs need to do (or have done) to sort out Slafkovksy's progression?

They were never actually allowed to develop, they were simply given the John Wayne toss into the swimming hole, where they could sink or swim…. In Galchenyuk’s case, he also had to deal with the “Desharnais gets first line minutes no matter what” rule that Therrien had in place. Basically they were both the byproduct of the Habs “have to win now” philosophy - they were never given much room to grow, any time they made a mistake they got stapled to the bench. They didn’t like it, (who would?) and never were able to overcome the hurdles. Instead of helping them, we just made more obstacles for them.

 

[MXD]

As for what went wrong with Galchenyuk, Kotkaniemi and a dozen other habs prospects over the last decade. They never got any better. It wasn't just one of them, in which case you could blame the player. None of them did. All of the faults they arrived with are the ones they still have to this day. Even good players like Lehkonen developed elsewhere and then never improved over their rookie seasons.

Compare that to other teams. For example, Tampa Bay drafted Brayden Point who was a small and slow player. This is normally a death sentence. But now Brayden Point is a fantastic skater. He didn't just improve his skating, he went from a below average junior skater to an above average NHL skater. When was the last time anything like that happened for a habs prospect?

Tomas Plekanec.

 

[Zilo44]

History will repeat itself,

We missed out on Brady T and regret it,

We missed out on Wright and will regret it,

Slaf will end up being Chucky 2.0

The franchise is starving for a 1C and then pass up on one

Makes zero sense

You say one thing and the opposite. We regret KK cause we drafted a C at all cost. Than we will regret Slaf cause we need a C

 

[26Mats]

I don't know much about amateur hockey or player development. Other than the obvious fact that Bergevin-Timmins-Therrien are gone and there is a new regime in place I'd like to know if there has been a reasonable retrospective analysis of what went wrong with Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi and what the Habs will be doing differently or should look out for when it comes to our new boy Slafkovsky.

Galchenyuk

GP

G

A

P

PPG

∆ PPG

GP

G

A

P

PPG

∆ PPG

2013​

48​

9​

18​

27​

0.56​

5​

1​

2​

3​

0.60​

2014​

65​

13​

18​

31​

0.48​

-0.09​

5​

2​

1​

3​

0.60​

0.00​

2015​

80​

20​

26​

46​

0.58​

0.10​

12​

1​

3​

4​

0.33​

-0.27​

2016​

82​

30​

26​

56​

0.68​

0.11​

2017​

61​

17​

27​

44​

0.72​

0.04​

6​

0​

3​

3​

0.50​

0.17​

2018​

82​

19​

32​

51​

0.62​

-0.10​

Totals

418​

108​

147​

255​

0.61​

0.05​

28​

4​

9​

13​

0.46​

-0.14​

Kotkanimi

GP

G

A

P

PPG

∆ PPG

GP

G

A

P

PPG

∆ PPG

2019​

79​

11​

23​

34​

0.43​

2020​

36​

6​

2​

8​

0.22​

-0.21​

10​

4​

4​

0.40​

2021​

56​

5​

15​

20​

0.36​

0.13​

19​

5​

3​

8​

0.42​

0.02​

Canes 2022

66​

12​

17​

29​

0.44​

0.08​

14

0

2

2​

0.14

- 0.28

Totals

237​

34​

57​

91​

0.38​

-0.05​

43​

9​

5​

14​

0.33​

-0.07​

Made the above table (instead of finishing a report for a client...) to see what happened on a statistical level.

We see that Galchenyuk started pretty strong with his line along Eller and Gallagher and, in hindsight, had a healthy-enough career with us. In his final season his 51 points and 0.6ppg isn't anything to scoff at - his career derailed afterwards so it could be the organisation cut ties with him just as they felt he was going the wrong way. He never went above and beyond though and his progression was minimal, the change in his PPG from his first season compared to his entire tenure was a measly 0.05 PPG. The difference between his peak PPG and his Habs career PPG is 0.11, and his peak PPG and his first season PPG is 0.16 (not bad!).

I think he didn't develop as fast as the Habs wanted and in his final season he slipped a bit so the Habs thought it was best to cut ties with him before it was too late. Turned out to be the right move, making the best of a mediocre 3OA pick.

Moving onto Kotkaniemi, he started well and had a major slip in his sophomore season. He didn't recover well enough from that and was poached away by the Hurricanes. He looks like something went terribly wrong somewhere. Next year will be pivotal for him. The Canes are hoping he hits 0.6 PPG and proves the haters and doubters wrong. They'll give him two more years and if he doesn't improve to being at least a 0.7PPG player they'll probably buy him out while his buy-out penalty is 1/3rd of his cap hit.

So do we have any theories what went wrong with these players and what the Habs need to do (or have done) to sort out Slafkovksy's progression?

1. Galchenyuk started off well. But when the NHL changed the enforcement of the rules, and it became more about skating, his game, like may others wasn't suited for the new NHL.

2. Kotkaniemi is 22 years old. 1 year older than kirby Dach. He'll be given 2c duties in Carolina. We'll see over the next 3 years what his ceiling is.

 

[NotProkofievian]

1. Galchenyuk started off well. But when the NHL changed the enforcement of the rules, and it became more about skating, his game, like may others wasn't suited for the new NHL.

2. Kotkaniemi is 22 years old. 1 year older than kirby Dach. He'll be given 2c duties in Carolina. We'll see over the next 3 years what his ceiling is.

I'm gonna be so mad if KK pulls this one out of the fire.

 

[Wats]

Every player develops at different rates at different age ranges. You can't nail this down as a fan.

It's all about hard work and the time you put into it. A lot of prospects have great age 15-17 years and once drafted, they coast thinking they made it. However, at age 18-21, the real hard work starts.

We look at Galchenyuk and KK but then ignore Suzuki. What's the difference? Commitment and obsession to improve. Not everyone has it

Suzuki/Gallagher also didn't make NHL until 20. They were both more physically/mentally more mature to realize what they need to develop in NHL.

Can you honestly say the results will be same had he made Habs at 19 in 2018 prior to having that amazing breakout OHL second half/MVP playoff/Mem cup run? It's like when people Pacioretty was sent back to AHL to start year in 2010, do you think he would have become same player without getting those couple months to light up AHL and become a scorer for first time in his career?

It's the organization's job to put the player in a position to succeed.

 

[PainForShane]

Hi guys, AZ fan I come in peace. Hope we get a chance to play you guys in the SCF over the next 5-8 years or so, wouldn't that be something.

Here to share thoughts re: Galchenyuk -- long post but a lot to share. I was a season ticket holder for a few years incl the year Galchenyuk played for us (2018-2019). If you remember, we traded Max Domi for him which at the time I could understand, rumor had it that Domi wanted to play in a big hockey market, Chayka was also in the middle of trading away every player bringing any sort of physical intangible, in hindsight the trade unfortunately ended up pretty even although Max Domi had a career year that first year for you guys.

Anyway Galchenyuk was a good player for us that one year. Nothing game breaking but he generally found soft ice and he was one of the few players we had who wasn't afraid to shoot, though he missed the net all the time. With that skillset, in normal teams he'd I think he'd score 20-30 goals every year provided he was given a top 6 role with ok linemates, for us he scored 19G in 72 games which tied for the team lead that year (Yotes have had offensive struggles for a while). We ended up sending him to PIT that next offseason (part of Kessel deal) and that's when his career stalled and he started getting traded every few months.

So I don't know whether it was a development issue, I think it was probably something else. He scored 30 goals for you guys in his 22 year old D+4 year, didn't he? That's not bad development.

Honestly... I think bigger problems were around bad timing and cap hit. Before we traded for him, an arbiter had decided he was worth 4.9M, that's too much. That dollar amount combined with his age basically meant he needed to be a comfortable top 6 fwd and a future core player. And he might have being that for us -- only that year we traded for Nick Schmaltz and immediately signed him to a long term extension (different discussion but seemed like a weird deal at the time) so with Schmaltz we could afford to part with Gally when acquiring Kessel. Gally did nothing in PIT which was the beginning of the end for him. That was when Galchenyuk's career started falling apart imo, well after he left MTL.

Anyway, if the Yotes had kept Gally instead of Schmaltz I really do think he would've kept scoring 20-25G a year as our top goal scoring threat, that's not saying much but was certainly true at the time. Gally's one of those players who needs offensive minutes to have any value, he would've had them in Arizona. But once you become a journeyman signed to ~1m dollar contracts, you're unlikely to get extended ice time with the skill guys, that's just how it works.

Also, that draft year (2012) was not the best, Gally currently has the 3rd most goals / 5th most points scored of anyone that year, he wasn't a terrible pick all things considered. Either way I don't think his career stalling now had anything to do with his development back when he was an 18 year old with you guys

2012 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com

A sortable list of players drafted in the 2012 NHL Entry draft, including their career scoring after being drafted

www.hockeydb.com

 

[Habs Halifax]

From my point of view? Regardless of poor drafting or other arguments? The team environment was absolutely toxic for development. From special treatment of one set of players to openly mocking rookies on the ice. Horrible stuff.

Assignment obsession and when a mistake was made, they get demoted. It's almost like Hughes and MSL were watching the games and situations unfold like we were and are going to really focus on not making the same mistakes as past coaches and managers.

Hughes focuses with adding players that have skill with the puck and MSL focuses on what you do without the puck. Dwelling on mistakes and getting obsessive with it is clearly not good for development. At some point the player needs to mature and make better decisions but inserting them in a role when they are not ready is on the manager, not the player.

 

[26Mats]

I'm gonna be so mad if KK pulls this one out of the fire.

Mad at our past development program?

 

[Barriwhite]

Seasons should always trump small tournaments. There is never a reason to over value sample sizes less than double digit games. It’s foolish, it may work out with Slaf, but I believe Wright will be the better player and I don’t think it’s close.

And Hughes said almost exactly that in his last presser before the draft. Making that declaration and then picking Slaf is quite the 180.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Suzuki/Gallagher also didn't make NHL until 20. Can you honestly say the results will be same had he made Habs at 19 in 2018 prior to having that amazing breakout OHL second half/playoff run?

I'm not sure. What I do know and stand firm is both Gallagher and Suzuki worked very hard off the ice to get their bodies ready for the NHL challenge.

Skating, Skill, and IQ is important. But physical strength in the right areas is also important and they only way to do that is hard work.

Younger players need to understand that skating and skill only get you so far. You need to bust your ass off in the gym to add muscle in the right areas. This is the NHL and it's the best in the world. You need every edge you can get

 

[NotProkofievian]

Mad at our past development program?

Yes. And some posters here.

 

[le_sean]

Immature and entitled boys that had huge flaws that they never improved on. Slaf seems far more mature, filled out and driven.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Immature and entitled boys that had huge flaws that they never improved on. Slaf seems far more mature, filled out and driven.

You mean, seems bigger, newer and completely unknown.

 

[Habs Icing]

I really don't buy the theory that Bergevin's era was lousy at development. Take four players that came up with Bergevin: Galch, Suz, Gally and KK. All four had serious issues when it came to skating and/or other aspects of their game. Management team told them what to do. Suz and Gally listened. The other two may have listened but accomplished nothing. If you want to blame Bergevin, blame him for keeping Timmins around. Beregvin's tenure was a failure mainly because the drafting sucked.

Could Bergevin's management team have done more to help with development? I doubt it. But this new team has thrown money and a slew of new people at the problem so let's see what kind of results they get. If your drafting sucks hiring a team of development "experts" is like putting lipstick on a pig.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

I'm gonna be so mad if KK pulls this one out of the fire.

Why? The people responsible for effing up are gone. KK is not one of them.

 

[le_sean]

You mean, seems bigger, newer and completely unknown.

Kid lived on his own in another country since 15. I think we can deduce that he’s far more mature at 18 than Mr. Abs and Bambi living with his daddy coach.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Kid lived on his own in another country since 15. I think we can deduce that he’s far more mature at 18 than Mr. Abs and Bambi living with his daddy coach.

Irrelevant to what the player can become.

 

[le_sean]

Galchenyuk don't have the hockey IQ and skating ability of Slafkovsky, Slafkovsky is a winger too and not a C.

Slafkovsky have more power in his game than Galchenyuk and KK, more talented, better skating ability, more physical and bigger.

The simple fact that Slafkovsky can stickhandle and skate at the same time is evidence he’s nothing like Galchenyuk.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

I really don't buy the theory that Bergevin's era was lousy at development. Take four players that came up with Bergevin: Galch, Suz, Gally and KK. All four had serious issues when it came to skating and/or other aspects of their game. Management team told them what to do. Suz and Gally listened. The other two may have listened but accomplished nothing. If you want to blame Bergevin, blame him for keeping Timmins around. Beregvin's tenure was a failure mainly because the drafting sucked.

Could Bergevin's management team have done more to help with development? I doubt it. But this new team has thrown money and a slew of new people at the problem so let's see what kind of results they get. If your drafting sucks hiring a team of development "experts" is like putting lipstick on a pig.

There was NO development team.

 

[le_sean]

Irrelevant to what the player can become.

How? His maturity is completely relevant when we are talking about development. He’s going to listen to our staff and work on his flaws. He’s not just going to listen to daddy like the other two.

 

[Seb]

I really don't buy the theory that Bergevin's era was lousy at development. Take four players that came up with Bergevin: Galch, Suz, Gally and KK. All four had serious issues when it came to skating and/or other aspects of their game. Management team told them what to do. Suz and Gally listened. The other two may have listened but accomplished nothing. If you want to blame Bergevin, blame him for keeping Timmins around. Beregvin's tenure was a failure mainly because the drafting sucked.

Could Bergevin's management team have done more to help with development? I doubt it. But this new team has thrown money and a slew of new people at the problem so let's see what kind of results they get. If your drafting sucks hiring a team of development "experts" is like putting lipstick on a pig.

Looking at the number of failed prospects under him makes it VERY clear that there was an issue (or many). There's absolutely no way we can objectively say that development was a success when in reality it is the very reason both he and Timmins were canned. There's a reason why they paid extra money to underserving plugs, they have failed to properly develop prospects.

 

[DAChampion]

Kotkaniemi was finding his offensive game in the AHL, he improved every game, then he had a spleen injury, then they wouldn't have made the playoffs regardless due to COVID.

Too bad, a Calder Cup run would have been good for him.