What weaknesses did Jaromir Jagr have in his prime?

[BenchBrawl]

Not at all. Lumping him together with second tier all-stars like Crosby is borderline offensive, same goes for Hasek and Roy. It's just Canadians who can't accept that players from other countries are actually superior(even though the 4 obvious best of all time are clearly Canadian that's not enough it seems) gotta make narratives about playoff antics, intangibles, partial seasons and what not.

Likewise here in Sweden you would probably have people tell you Forsberg is superior to Crosby even though it's just as ridiculous.

Claims of superiority must come with results, and hockey is a team game. Crosby led his teams to three Stanley Cup championships as the #1 or #2 player. Feel free to call that "playoff antics".

Jagr was a beast offensively, but nothing separates him from a player like Guy Lafleur in that regard. Both failed to learn to play a complete game.

 

[psycat]

Claims of superiority must come with results, and hockey is a team game. Crosby led his teams to three Stanley Cup championships as the #1 or #2 player. Feel free to call that "playoff antics".

Jagr was a beast offensively, but nothing separates him from a player like Guy Lafleur in that regard. Both failed to learn to play a complete game.

I mean longveity does separate him from LaFleur but make no mistake The Flower should also be ranked above Crosby for sure.

 

[Dingo]

He wasn't Canadian and he directly trailed the two most offensively gifted players of all time. If not for these factors I suspect he would be pretty much concensus 5th best skater of all time, and rightfully so I might add.

i agree with both of these points, except id like to say that i am really confident that we are basically over that, in general, as a nation.

I am 45. The nationality aspect is definitely, definitely true of my age bracket and was strongly drummed into us growing up. There was always a reason that a euro wasnt really deserving. You see it in Hasek talk even though he was so clearly head and shoulders above his peers. Goaltender wins wasnt even really a talking point until people wanted some reason to put Brodeur over Hasek.

Ive, like everyone, worked with older guys. The blue collar guys who grew up in the 70s are even worse. Cant even talk hockey with them unless its kept to Canadians first and itsll starts with Bobby Orr as number 1. its dogmatic.

But, i am really certain that we have gotten over this stubborness, by and large. You see plenty of arguments for Ovechkin over Crosby for instance, and i dont think that is really feasible myself as an Ovechkin lover who dislikes Crosby. My friends in hockey pools all like Swedes and Finns and Russians, there is very little mention of nationality nowadays. Our media is so much better than the old days. I mean, dont get me wrong, there will always be a lean, but our religious insecurity over having rights to all things hockey is fading out with my generation, and even most of us have moved on.

To your second point - ya, that is bang on. In fact, id go even further than saying that Jagr was in the shadow of Wayne and Mario in the sense that he was third place in terms of dominating the league, and add that he also livedin the shadow of Mario being his teammate. I know a lot of guys who sortve just considered him ‘that guy who got points because of Mario’ and dont know that Mario was broken or retired and Jagr actually got BETTER when he became the big wheel in Pittsburgh. That he threw up his best seasons when he had his most average linemates (still good linemates). I think, in time, kids are gonna look back and see all those art rosses and those gaps and say, “wait, his guy was gapping Forsberg, Sakic, Bure, and he was the last player to win many scoring titles - why doesnt his reputation supercede Crosby and Malkin, Ovechkin, Forsberg, etc.”

You have to go back to Lafleur to get someone who shows up statistically like Jagr, and i think the league was much deeper and more balanced during Jagr’s time. No disrespect to Guy, but that team was beyond stacked and there were a lot of minnows to pile up the numbers on. He also didnt have the gaps on his peergroup.

Now, to make this post even longer (lol) i will say that i separate offensive wingers from two way centers in my ratings. I do think there is an argument for the Crosby’s and Forsberg’s to be also elevated to Jagr’s incredible status, but, in terms of offense, he is really top 4 ever.

 

[K Fleur]

Seeing Sidney Crosby described as a “2nd tier all star” and then seeing the same describer crying about bias is quite something.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I mean longveity does separate him from LaFleur but make no mistake The Flower should also be ranked above Crosby for sure.

Crosby has scored at a higher rate than both Jagr and Lafleur so far career wise. Regular season and playoffs.

Suprisingly, both Jagr and Lafleur have better plus/minus numbers than Crosby. Regular season and playoffs.

As an American, I am completely free of nationality bias. All three of these players are all-time greats. Top 25 at least. I've seen all three play. I rate them:

Crosby
Jagr
Lafleur

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

i agree with both of these points, except id like to say that i am really confident that we are basically over that, in general, as a nation.

I am 45. The nationality aspect is definitely, definitely true of my age bracket and was strongly drummed into us growing up. There was always a reason that a euro wasnt really deserving. You see it in Hasek talk even though he was so clearly head and shoulders above his peers. Goaltender wins wasnt even really a talking point until people wanted some reason to put Brodeur over Hasek.

Ive, like everyone, worked with older guys. The blue collar guys who grew up in the 70s are even worse. Cant even talk hockey with them unless its kept to Canadians first and itsll starts with Bobby Orr as number 1. its dogmatic.

I'm one of those older guys.

To me, its not dogma that Bobby Orr is number one. Just an informed opinion that I've come to based on the fact that he was the best player I've ever seen play the game.

But I don't understand what that has to do with nationality bias. Gretzky is the consensus #1 and he's Canadian also. It comes as no surprise that fans who actually saw Orr play think he's the best ever.

 

[Professor What]

I think some bias exists, though I agree with @Dingo that it's not nearly as pronounced as it used to be. I firmly believe that the media crowning Doughty as the Norris winner in a close race over Karlsson before the season even started, then sticking to that even after Karlsson had a historic season was an example. But, that's the most egregious wide scale example I can think of in recent years, and that's a long way from screaming that all Euros are soft, they don't belong in the NHL, and they should all go back to Europe. So, is it gone? No. Is it far, far better than it once was? Definitely. Case in point, not long ago, I read an article about what the NHL needed to do to right itself, and one of their ideas was to go back to being a "North American" league. I thought about how most people would have laughed at how absurd that was. Virtually no one wants to think about an NHL without Jagr, Hasek, Ovechkin, Selanne, or Salming. I almost posted a link here to get reaction. I think we all know what it would have been on that point.

But beyond that, this place isn't the media. I just made a thread a couple of days ago talking about how much I love this place and love talking hockey with the folks here, and another reason that I didn't cite there is that I think the vast majority of posters on this board are searching for the truth. Just like in life, we're not all going to agree on everything, but you've got folks here who want to see the real picture of hockey history as clearly as possible, and they don't care about nationality in doing so. That's the way it ought to be, and comparing this place to the general media isn't right, even if we do have our fair share of media members here. More personally, I once posted on here that Jagr had slid into the five spot for me, but he didn't end up there on my list that I just submitted for our upcoming project. I'm sure I'll be one of the people ranking him highest, but he's not fifth. That's not bias though. It's the end result of honestly attempted research.

Lastly, @K Fleur is right that lamenting a perceived slight of Jagr by going at Crosby as a "second-tier all-star" has bad optics. I don't like Crosby. I never have, and I suspect I never will. I think it's ridiculous when people want to rank him as the third-best center of all time, and I was slow to come around on him. But, I now rank him sixth among centers personally, which makes him clearly the greatest center of his generation. I had to overcome by personal feelings there, and I think I've done so, just line I think the overwhelming majority of posters on this board do. The end result is, though we won't always get it right, because no one can, this board will, in the end as a group, probably get to something pretty accurate in the end when assessing a player.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I rank players based on the order I'd pick them if they were age 18 and I'm building a team around them.

Jagr barely makes my Top 20 in that scenario. Art Rosses are not Stanley Cups.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

His one timer and slapshots were god awful until he started staying after practice working with Gonchar when he was with the Caps, until then he just had unreal moves to his backhand and to set up his wrist shot, Mario, Francis, Coffey and just about everyone on the roster at the time used to laugh at him in shooting drills since he just had a backhand and wrist shot.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

His one timer and slapshots were god awful until he started staying after practice working with Gonchar when he was with the Caps, until then he just had unreal moves to his backhand and to set up his wrist shot, Mario, Francis, Coffey and just about everyone on the roster at the time used to laugh at him in shooting drills since he just had a backhand and wrist shot.

appreciate the insight, that makes a lot of sense looking back at jagr’s (over-)stickhandling. maybe similar to kovalev in that respect? feels like a guy in basketball who only has one spot he can consistently score from and he just dribbles and dribbles and crossing guys over and back trying plant his feet there.

but i’m aso laughing a little imagining jagr smirking at francis and being like, yeah you should talk ronnie.

 

[Dingo]

I'm one of those older guys.

To me, its not dogma that Bobby Orr is number one. Just an informed opinion that I've come to based on the fact that he was the best player I've ever seen play the game.

But I don't understand what that has to do with nationality bias. Gretzky is the consensus #1 and he's Canadian also. It comes as no surprise that fans who actually saw Orr play think he's the best ever.

oh, im not saying that Orr isnt number one. Im saying that all the old guys i know refuse (and especially refused in the old days) to give credit to Jagr, Lidstrom, Hasek, Fedorov, Stastny, etc. The guys that i hungout with that played hockey in the 90s (one went 6th overall, another played in the AHL, another was essentially as good as them but smaller...good players is what im saying) although extremely openminded and good dudes outside of a hockey had a built in reflex to trash euros. this is anecdotal evidence, but how much they changed when the subject arose and it being directly in accordance with Don Cherry’s weekly sermon made me think it was systemic (i despise that word these days, but there it is)
I nearly shit myself when a couple old guys (Bobby Clarke favorite player) actually agreed that that Forsberg guy wasnt a total p***y. That was something i hadnt heard before.

The Orr vs Gretz can just be put down to a generational bias, a style of play bias, or even more simply just an opinion of who was better. im not bagging on either, myself.

 

[Dingo]

I think some bias exists, though I agree with @Dingo that it's not nearly as pronounced as it used to be. I firmly believe that the media crowning Doughty as the Norris winner in a close race over Karlsson before the season even started, then sticking to that even after Karlsson had a historic season was an example. But, that's the most egregious wide scale example I can think of in recent years, and that's a long way from screaming that all Euros are soft, they don't belong in the NHL, and they should all go back to Europe. So, is it gone? No. Is it far, far better than it once was? Definitely. Case in point, not long ago, I read an article about what the NHL needed to do to right itself, and one of their ideas was to go back to being a "North American" league. I thought about how most people would have laughed at how absurd that was. Virtually no one wants to think about an NHL without Jagr, Hasek, Ovechkin, Selanne, or Salming. I almost posted a link here to get reaction. I think we all know what it would have been on that point.

But beyond that, this place isn't the media. I just made a thread a couple of days ago talking about how much I love this place and love talking hockey with the folks here, and another reason that I didn't cite there is that I think the vast majority of posters on this board are searching for the truth. Just like in life, we're not all going to agree on everything, but you've got folks here who want to see the real picture of hockey history as clearly as possible, and they don't care about nationality in doing so. That's the way it ought to be, and comparing this place to the general media isn't right, even if we do have our fair share of media members here. More personally, I once posted on here that Jagr had slid into the five spot for me, but he didn't end up there on my list that I just submitted for our upcoming project. I'm sure I'll be one of the people ranking him highest, but he's not fifth. That's not bias though. It's the end result of honestly attempted research.

Lastly, @K Fleur is right that lamenting a perceived slight of Jagr by going at Crosby as a "second-tier all-star" has bad optics. I don't like Crosby. I never have, and I suspect I never will. I think it's ridiculous when people want to rank him as the third-best center of all time, and I was slow to come around on him. But, I now rank him sixth among centers personally, which makes him clearly the greatest center of his generation. I had to overcome by personal feelings there, and I think I've done so, just line I think the overwhelming majority of posters on this board do. The end result is, though we won't always get it right, because no one can, this board will, in the end as a group, probably get to something pretty accurate in the end when assessing a player.

i agree with all of this. The Doughty example is good. i think there will always be bias, in any region towards that regions players. but, i think we are about as good as people can be, now.

i did not mean, in any way, that this forum has a nationality bias. There are probably some era bias’, and there was one guy with a whole onion of complex bias...but he is not here anymore.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

appreciate the insight, that makes a lot of sense looking back at jagr’s (over-)stickhandling. maybe similar to kovalev in that respect? feels like a guy in basketball who only has one spot he can consistently score from and he just dribbles and dribbles and crossing guys over and back trying plant his feet there.

but i’m aso laughing a little imagining jagr smirking at francis and being like, yeah you should talk ronnie.

Jagr pretty much admitted it to not only it happening numerous time but also his own youthful arrogance/stubborn refusal to listen in a intermission report IIRC, he wasnt spiteful or anything he just said along the lines of "Looking back I should have listened to at least one of them." kinda thing.

 

[Theokritos]

He wasn't Canadian and he directly trailed the two most offensively gifted players of all time. If not for these factors I suspect he would be pretty much concensus 5th best skater of all time, and rightfully so I might add.

It's just Canadians who can't accept that players from other countries are actually superior

These claims inspired me to run a little reality check as far as voting on our own site is concerned.

Here's where Jágr ranked on the aggregate list in the 2018-2019 Top-100 project: #15
Here's how the 13 voters* I could identify as Americans & Europeans ranked Jágr: 8, 10, 12, 14, 15, 15, 16, 19, 19, 19, 30, 32, 36

(*The 13 are [and please correct me if I'm wrong about anyone's nationality]: @Batis, @ChiTownPhilly, @Dennis Bonvie, @Iceman, @ImporterExporter, @quoipourquoi, @Mike Farkas, @Sentinel, @sr edler, @steve141, @ted2019, @TheDevilMadeMe, @The Macho King)

The median rank among non-Canadian voters is #16, which means they ranked Jágr very much like Canadian voters did.

Other facts:

• The single-highest rating of Jágr in Round 1 was by a Canadian voter.
• 11 out of 13 non-Canadian voters ranked Crosby over Jágr in both round 1 & round 2.

One could almost come to the conclusion that any bias Canadians here might have against Jágr is exceeded by the bias you, @psycat, have against Canadians.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Goaltender wins wasnt even really a talking point until people wanted some reason to put Brodeur over Hasek.

.

Mostly OT, but I have to post to say how much I strongly disagree with this statement.

One of my earliest "hockey stats" memories was all the talk in the media about how Roy was closing in on Sawchuk as the all-times wins leader and therefore the greatest goaltender of all-time.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Nice work. And yes, as an American, my favorite all-time player is Jaromir Jagr...I think I'm one of his bigger backers here, reasonably...but unreasonably: whatever psycat is saying. Five's a real silly number in its own right, and then stepping on Crosby's face repeatedly to get there is looney tunes...

Let's pretend it was forged in the fires of reality for a second, if anything, I'd at least try pandering to the jaded Pens fans that still hold resentment against him for the "dying alive" stuff haha ...if you're gonna strike out subjectively, at least try to gain some points back "politically"...Morenz and Richard are right there, it's easy pickens...and you can still chase the boogeyman of the nebulous "Canadia(e)n bias", but to go for Crosby - who we also have all seen - that's just poor execution in my opinion...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

agree with almost everything in your post, dingo. i never played with guys like that, but some of them were the dads hanging around our teams, opening bench doors, helping with practices, etc growing up.

you could always tell when the discussion came to bure vs linden.

how much they changed when the subject arose and it being directly in accordance with Don Cherry’s weekly sermon made me think it was systemic (i despise that word these days, but there it is)

if i may veer slightly off topic here, i think systematic might be closer to what you mean here. even that’s kind of pushing it, if i’m understanding you correctly.

when ppl use the word systemic, they don’t mean a clean clockworky cause and effect like you do here. they mean that an institution or its rules are built in a way that favours certain results, whether this effect is intentional or not.

to make a politically neutral example, you could say that a hockey league that doesn’t allow forward passing makes it so that a ray whitney-type player who can skate with the puck has a systemic advantage over a ray sheppard-type player, even though all told they are similar calibres of player.

does that maybe help at all with your dislike of the word?

 

[Professor What]

i agree with all of this. The Doughty example is good. i think there will always be bias, in any region towards that regions players. but, i think we are about as good as people can be, now.

i did not mean, in any way, that this forum has a nationality bias. There are probably some era bias’, and there was one guy with a whole onion of complex bias...but he is not here anymore.

I want to make sure I didn't give the impression I thought you saw a nationally bias on this forum. I wasn't saying that at all. I was saying that I think the forum tends to lack the media bias, which, in turn isn't as bad as 20 years ago.

But, yeah, we all have our biases, which all surface in various ways. Some want a high peak, others want longevity. Some value offense vs defense more highly than others. And I don't have a problem with that. Those are the biases that create good conversation.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think the vast majority of posters on this board are searching for the truth

hear hear

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Mostly OT, but I have to post to say how much I strongly disagree with this statement.

One of my earliest "hockey stats" memories was all the talk in the media about how Roy was closing in on Sawchuk as the all-times wins leader and therefore the greatest goaltender of all-time.

Agreed. Wins were considered hugely important up until at least the late 1990's. There was a gradual shift in thinking after that, which I think was due to four factors:

1. Hasek was the consensus best goalie during his prime but never led the league in wins until he went to the stacked team Red Wings, which showed the limitations of judging goalies based on win/loss records;
2. Save percentage (which was officially tracked since the early 1980's) was finally starting to get some traction as a more meaningful goalie stat;
3. Win-loss records for pitchers were rapidly falling out of fashion in baseball (especially in the early 2000's) - there's been a sharp divergence with Corsi etc over the past decade, but advanced hockey stats were strongly influenced by Bill James and other baseball analysts for a couple of decades;
4. After the lockout, goalies were rapidly climbing the single-season and career wins leaderboard, which made people realize that stat is era-dependent (a win is a win, but obviously there are more wins when there are more teams, the schedule is longer, and fewer games end in ties).

 

[ted2019]

These claims inspired me to run a little reality check as far as voting on our own site is concerned.

Here's where Jágr ranked on the aggregate list in the 2018-2019 Top-100 project: #15
Here's how the 13 voters* I could identify as Americans & Europeans ranked Jágr: 8, 10, 12, 14, 15, 15, 16, 19, 19, 19, 30, 32, 36

(*The 13 are [and please correct me if I'm wrong about anyone's nationality]: @Batis, @ChiTownPhilly, @Dennis Bonvie, @Iceman, @ImporterExporter, @quoipourquoi, @Mike Farkas, @Sentinel, @sr edler, @steve141, @ted2019, @TheDevilMadeMe, @The Macho King)

The median rank among non-Canadian voters is #16, which means they ranked Jágr very much like Canadian voters did.

Other facts:

• The single-highest rating of Jágr in Round 1 was by a Canadian voter.
• 11 out of 13 non-Canadian voters ranked Crosby over Jágr in both round 1 & round 2.

One could almost come to the conclusion that any bias Canadians here might have against Jágr is exceeded by the bias you, @psycat, have against Canadians.

I'm from the US.

 

[Theokritos]

I'm from the US.

That's what I figured & that's why you're on that list of American & European voters.

 

[ted2019]

That's what I figured & that's why you're on that list of American & European voters.

Sorry, I just skimmed the post.

 

[K Fleur]

Mostly OT, but I have to post to say how much I strongly disagree with this statement.

One of my earliest "hockey stats" memories was all the talk in the media about how Roy was closing in on Sawchuk as the all-times wins leader and therefore the greatest goaltender of all-time.

Yeah I don’t remember seeing any serious discounting of wins as a goalie stat until the shootout.

 

[Dingo]

Mostly OT, but I have to post to say how much I strongly disagree with this statement.

One of my earliest "hockey stats" memories was all the talk in the media about how Roy was closing in on Sawchuk as the all-times wins leader and therefore the greatest goaltender of all-time.

maybe im wrong. i missed that, but it isnt like i catch it all.