What Team Has the Top Future D Corp

[bwanajamba]

Can't help but take the bait. By what metric is Chicago in year 7 of their rebuild? Number of years since a playoff berth? 4+ years of that was a misguided attempt to keep an aging roster competitive. The rebuild very clearly started about three years ago with the trades of Hagel, Debrincat, and Dach and subsequent departures of Kane and Toews. I think the only players left on the roster from the 22-23 season are Kurashev, Dickinson, and Murphy, none of whom project to be around long term. If that doesn't mark a rebuild I don't know what does

 

[newmanager]

With the way Levshunov and Rinzel have looked it's easily Chicago for me.

 

[CallMeShaft]

All these guys together form one of the worst defenses in the league, and even in the AHL, their performances aren't stellar.

I don't think they're undervalued.

My assessment takes into account the role these players should play at their full potential on a title-contending team. If Vlasic and Levshunov are Chicago's first and second defensemen, fine. But with that, it'll still be a team that's playing the lottery to get the first overall draft pick. Alex Vlasic, in Montreal, he's in the top 6 behind Hutson and Guhle. And Montreal is only an average team in the league.

If this group is to move up a level, it will not be with these guys but with the addition of talent.

They are one of the worst defenses in the league. They are also all 23 or younger.

To put that age into perspective, the Western Michigan team that played and won this past Thursday had, on average, an older blueline than the one the Hawks iced that same night. Literal college teams are icing guys older on the backend than what the Hawks are. It's not at all surprising this is one of the worst defenses in the league.

Levshunov has done fine in the AHL this season. Point totals weren't that impressive, but he was the 2nd youngest player in the A this year and the overall youngest defender. As I said previously, he was 3rd on sog in that entire league at the time he was called up, and he did so as a D+1 player.

And your assessment had Vlasic as merely a "top 6" guy. Maybe he's not amongst a contenders top 2 D, but he sure as hell isn't just an NHL level defenseman. He's at least a middle pairing guy on almost every contending team. Again, he's top 60 in points, despite being a shutdown D, and is playing over 23 minutes a night.

You mention that Vlasic would be on the 3rd pair in Montreal and I'm not so certain. He's got a higher PPG this season than Guhle and averages over 2 minutes a game more. Maybe you can make an argument that Guhle is better defensively, but I'm not even sure of that. Vlasic is highly touted for his defensive play, and like I mentioned in my previous post, was considered by The Athletic as the 2nd best pure shutdown defender in the league last year. Even if you want to come to your own conclusions about how to judge a player for their defensive abilities, it still says a lot about how good Vlasic is on that side of the ice. I will also say that Vlasic was probably a bit better defensively last season, but not by some extreme degree.

And even if you still wanted to have Guhle in front of Vlasic, that doesn't necessarily mean Vlasic would be a 3rd pair D. Would you say Drai is a 2C because he plays behind McDavid? Was Malkin only ever a 2C because he played behind Crosby? Not to mention that Montreal being a mid team this year isn't necessarily because of the talent of their left side D, that's really not how it works. Teams can have amazing depth in one position and be weak at other spots in the lineup.

And I'm not even advocating that the Hawks have the best future D core in the league like the OP did. I think most of their strength will be on D and I think there are guys with the potential to become 1Ds in this league, but guys having potential or hitting on said potential are too widely different things. I simply like the potential and the fact the majority of those guys are 6ft2 (or taller) and are, for the most part, good skaters. Makes for an exciting group.

 

[Mrfenn92]

Levshunov : probably top 4
Vlasic : solid top 6
Korchinski : very incertain top 4 (maybe a bust)
Rinzel : solid top 4
Del Mastro : 6th/7th DEF
Allan : 6th/7th DEF
Kaiser : AHL Player
Phillips : AHL player

No guy matches an elite (#1) or very good (#2) defender. These guys are in place and Chicago's level is catastrophic.

This is very insufficient. Some are no longer young either (players born in 2001 are already 24 years old).

Very worried for Chicago. A very complicated 7th season. Very questionable choices over the last 7 years with many failures (the Dach project, Seth Jones, the profile of the forwards drafted to surround Bedard who always seems alone in the world, the selections of Levshunov and Korchinski so high).

And what's more, the guy who was supposed to be a leader isn't really that strong and needs to be well supported (which isn't the case at all).

There's still a lot missing in Chicago. They've fallen behind and are at the level of a team after two years of rebuilding. However, this has been going on for seven years. San Jose is much further ahead in the rebuild.

Vlasic would be in your top 4. It’s ok to admit you just don’t know the player.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Can't help but take the bait. By what metric is Chicago in year 7 of their rebuild? Number of years since a playoff berth? 4+ years of that was a misguided attempt to keep an aging roster competitive. The rebuild very clearly started about three years ago with the trades of Hagel, Debrincat, and Dach and subsequent departures of Kane and Toews. I think the only players left on the roster from the 22-23 season are Kurashev, Dickinson, and Murphy, none of whom project to be around long term. If that doesn't mark a rebuild I don't know what does

Yet most of the players listed in the topic were selected before the official reconstruction (Vlasic, Kaiser, Allan, Del Mastro, Phillips.

They are one of the worst defenses in the league. They are also all 23 or younger.

To put that age into perspective, the Western Michigan team that played and won this past Thursday had, on average, an older blueline than the one the Hawks iced that same night. Literal college teams are icing guys older on the backend than what the Hawks are. It's not at all surprising this is one of the worst defenses in the league.

Levshunov has done fine in the AHL this season. Point totals weren't that impressive, but he was the 2nd youngest player in the A this year and the overall youngest defender. As I said previously, he was 3rd on sog in that entire league at the time he was called up, and he did so as a D+1 player.

And your assessment had Vlasic as merely a "top 6" guy. Maybe he's not amongst a contenders top 2 D, but he sure as hell isn't just an NHL level defenseman. He's at least a middle pairing guy on almost every contending team. Again, he's top 60 in points, despite being a shutdown D, and is playing over 23 minutes a night.

You mention that Vlasic would be on the 3rd pair in Montreal and I'm not so certain. He's got a higher PPG this season than Guhle and averages over 2 minutes a game more. Maybe you can make an argument that Guhle is better defensively, but I'm not even sure of that. Vlasic is highly touted for his defensive play, and like I mentioned in my previous post, was considered by The Athletic as the 2nd best pure shutdown defender in the league last year. Even if you want to come to your own conclusions about how to judge a player for their defensive abilities, it still says a lot about how good Vlasic is on that side of the ice. I will also say that Vlasic was probably a bit better defensively last season, but not by some extreme degree.

And even if you still wanted to have Guhle in front of Vlasic, that doesn't necessarily mean Vlasic would be a 3rd pair D. Would you say Drai is a 2C because he plays behind McDavid? Was Malkin only ever a 2C because he played behind Crosby? Not to mention that Montreal being a mid team this year isn't necessarily because of the talent of their left side D, that's really not how it works. Teams can have amazing depth in one position and be weak at other spots in the lineup.

And I'm not even advocating that the Hawks have the best future D core in the league like the OP did. I think most of their strength will be on D and I think their are guys with the potential to become 1Ds in this league, but guys having potential or hitting on said potential are too widely different things. I simply like the potential and the fact the majority of those guys are 6ft2 (or taller) and are, for the most part, good skaters. Makes for an exciting group.

Martinez, Brodie and Murphy are old. Vlasic is 24. Korchinski still in AHL at 21 (and he is far from dominating). Del Mastro doesn't even have the level to impose himself on this team. Levshunov's first season has fallen short of what he had hoped for at the beginning of the year, Kaiser is already 23 and is only there to fill a void.
With the list of defenders listed in the topic, you are heading for failure. Besides, Chicago is a bitter failure.
Come on, I'll give you credit for Vlasic as a solid 4th defenseman on an average NHL team. It doesn't change much in my analysis. Especially since for other players like Del Mastro, I was generous in listing him as 6th/7th and I was very light in talking about the Korchinski case.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Vlasic would be in your top 4. It’s ok to admit you just don’t know the player.

Do you know Lane Hutson, Mike Matheson and Kaeden Guhle ?

The current 4th guy is an irremovable player on the right (Carrier). And even if you invalidate Carrier, Reinbacher soon arrives in the perspective of playing in the top 4.

If he were to arrive in Montreal tomorrow, Vlasic would take Struble's place.

Even if I validate him as 4th D. Chicago's best defenseman is the fourth guy on an average team like Montreal. And there's no excuse for age when it comes to Hutson, Guhle, and Reinbacher.

It doesn't change my global analysis. I still don't see the #1 defenseman and nothing is guaranteed about a #2 defenseman on a competitive team.

 

[Mrfenn92]

Do you know Lane Hutson, Mike Matheson and Kaeden Guhle ?

The current 4th guy is an irremovable player on the right (Carrier). And even if you invalidate Carrier, Reinbacher soon arrives in the perspective of playing in the top 4.

If he were to arrive in Montreal tomorrow, Vlasic would take Struble's place.

At worst, I validate as 4th D. Chicago's best defenseman is the fourth guy on an average team like Montreal. And there's no excuse for age when it comes to Hutson, Guhle, and Reinbacher.

It doesn't change my global analysis.

Ok. He’d still be in your top 4. Your global analysis or not. Carrier and matheson would drop out easily.

Also how is Chicago a bitter failure?

lol my god

 

[CallMeShaft]

Yet most of the players listed in the topic were selected before the official reconstruction (Vlasic, Kaiser, Allan, Del Mastro, Phillips.

Martinez, Brodie and Murphy are old. Vlasic is 24. Korchinski still in AHL at 21 (and he is far from dominating). Del Mastro doesn't even have the level to impose himself on this team. Levshunov's first season has fallen short of what he had hoped for at the beginning of the year, Kaiser is already 23 and is only there to fill a void.
With the list of defenders listed in the topic, you are heading for failure. Besides, Chicago is a bitter failure.
Come on, I'll give you credit for Vlasic as a solid 4th defenseman on an average NHL team. It doesn't change much in my analysis. Especially since for other players like Del Mastro, I was generous in listing him as 6th/7th and I was very light in talking about the Korchinski case.

Stop rounding up guys' ages. Vlasic is 23, like I've previously said. Korchinski is still 20. Kasier is still 22. I also wouldn't call any team a "bitter failure" if I wanted people to take my post seriously.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Ok. He’d still be in your top 4. Your global analysis or not. Carrier and matheson would drop out easily.

No. Matheson is there to play the role of a puck carrier (not Vlasic's profile) and Carrier is the only right-hander in the lineup.

 

[bwanajamba]

Yet most of the players listed in the topic were selected before the official reconstruction (Vlasic, Kaiser, Allan, Del Mastro, Phillips.

They are all either mid-late round picks or, in the case of Allan, drafted with a pick acquired in the Seth Jones trade, which was about as anti-rebuild as it gets. That is not evidence of a rebuild

Also I can only assume you are getting your ages from birth years but you are wrong on 3 counts- Vlasic is still 23, Kaiser still 22, Korchinski still 20. Calling Levshunov's season a disappointment seems like bait, he has exceeded most fans' and evaluators' expectations from the start of the year.

 

[Mrfenn92]

No. Matheson is there to play the role of a puck carrier (not Vlasic's profile) and Carrier is the only right-hander in the lineup.

He’d be in your top 4. Simple as that

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

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Stop rounding up guys' ages. Vlasic is 23, like I've previously said. Korchinski is still 20. Kasier is still 22. I also wouldn't call any team a "bitter failure" if I wanted people to take my post seriously.

I don't know the birth dates - I know it's 2025.

So yes, Vlasic isn't 24 years old, but 23 years, 10 months, and 1 week. Korchinski isn't 21 years old, but 20 years, 10 months, and 1 week. Kaiser (from the moment you mention this random person, you're a weak point on the subject) isn't 23 years old, but 22 years, 9 months, and 2 weeks. These guys have three more games to play. They'll be six months older in the fourth game.

You're right, Chicago isn't a big failure. I lose credibility by saying that. Let's say they are the worst team in the league along with San Jose and don't have the quality prospect pool that San Jose does.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

They are all either mid-late round picks or, in the case of Allan, drafted with a pick acquired in the Seth Jones trade, which was about as anti-rebuild as it gets. That is not evidence of a rebuild

Also I can only assume you are getting your ages from birth years but you are wrong on 3 counts- Vlasic is still 23, Kaiser still 22, Korchinski still 20. Calling Levshunov's season a disappointment seems like bait, he has exceeded most fans' and evaluators' expectations from the start of the year.

The topic is the future top defense, so of course the players are supposed to be young. Does Chicago have a top defense prospect ? Not in my opinion. There's no No. 1 defenseman in sight and no guaranteed No. 2 defenseman.

The topic is the future top defense, so of course the players are supposed to be young. Does Chicago have a top defense prospect? Not in my opinion. There's no No. 1 defenseman in sight and no guaranteed No. 2 defenseman.

If you prefer, Vlasic is at draft +6... in 4 games draft +7. Well... not really a rookie. I don't consider Caufield, Newhook, or Dach as prospects.

By the time Chicago closes the huge gap to be playoff-competitive, he will already be thirty years old. At best. It could last more than 6 years without a playoff spot.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

I don’t see how Detroit isn’t a common mention here, they have seider, edvinsson and ASP. Detroits rebuild deserves a lot of shit for how they’ve handled the team around the prospects but they are legitimately stacked at defense.

 

[bwanajamba]

The topic is the future top defense, so of course the players are supposed to be young. Does Chicago have a top defense prospect ? Not in my opinion. There's no No. 1 defenseman in sight and no guaranteed No. 2 defenseman.

The topic is the future top defense, so of course the players are supposed to be young. Does Chicago have a top defense prospect? Not in my opinion. There's no No. 1 defenseman in sight and no guaranteed No. 2 defenseman.

If you prefer, Vlasic is at draft +6... in 4 games draft +7. Well... not really a rookie. I don't consider Caufield, Newhook, or Dach as prospects.

By the time Chicago closes the huge gap to be playoff-competitive, he will already be thirty years old. At best. It could last more than 6 years without a playoff spot.

This is a weird argument. You're skipping over six years on the (shaky) presumption that Chicago won't contend for a playoff spot for at least that long, but this topic is projecting the future from today, not prospect quality and not the future outlook in six years. Vlasic is 23 today and signed long term in Chicago. You can't really discount him as part of the future blue line even if your scenario comes true and they don't compete in that time.

As for the bit about whether or not there is a #1 and #2 in the system, many would disagree with you but it isn't worth debating online. That will all play out on its own

 

[CallMeShaft]

I don’t see how Detroit isn’t a common mention here, they have seider, edvinsson and ASP. Detroits rebuild deserves a lot of shit for how they’ve handled the team around the prospects but they are legitimately stacked at defense.

I'm not big on the center depth for the future of the Wings, but they have some solid young depth elsewhere, especially the backend. Ed/Seider have the potential to be a top 10 d pair in their primes. Just big, imposing guys with long reaches suffocating opposing teams.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

I'm not big on the center depth for the future of the Wings, but they have some solid young depth elsewhere, especially the backend. Ed/Seider have the potential to be a top 10 d pair in their primes. Just big, imposing guys with long reaches suffocating opposing teams.

center depth is another huge strong suit of the red wings lol. Honestly the red wings prospect pool/young players is absolutely stacked top to bottom, they are just missing that elite 1c prospect/young player that other teams have. Ed and Seider were already a top 10 pair when they played for half of this season lol but they likely won’t be a pairing in the future. ED will be with ASP.

 

[CallMeShaft]

center depth is another huge strong suit of the red wings lol. Honestly the red wings prospect pool/young players is absolutely stacked top to bottom, they are just missing that elite 1c prospect/young player that other teams have. Ed and Seider were already a top 10 pair when they played for half of this season lol but they likely won’t be a pairing in the future. ED will be with ASP.

the hole at 1C is what I meant. No real Larkin replacement and it's a hard position to fill if you're getting mid 1st round picks.

I know Ed and Seider were a pair for a bit there, unfortunate if that won't be long term. I get it, you want a guy with size who can be more of a shutdown guy with ASP, but if you were to imagine a near perfect D pair in your head, it'd probably be guys with the size, skating, and 2-way play of Ed/Seider.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

the hole at 1C is what I meant. No real Larkin replacement and it's a hard position to fill if you're getting mid 1st round picks.

I know Ed and Seider were a pair for a bit there, unfortunate if that won't be long term. I get it, you want a guy with size who can be more of a shutdown guy with ASP, but if you were to imagine a near perfect D pair in your head, it'd probably be guys with the size, skating, and 2-way play of Ed/Seider.

Eh I’m not convinced kasper can’t become a Larkin replacement. He’s a lot better of a center than Larkin was at the same age and he’s got 35 points this year. But I do agree with you in spirit that Larkin will be a huge hole to fill. I don’t think it’s just that they want a guy with size for ASP, I think it’s just that they want one of Seider and edvinsson on the ice for 40+ mins a night. There’s a good chance they take defense again this year in the first round to round things out.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

This is a weird argument. You're skipping over six years on the (shaky) presumption that Chicago won't contend for a playoff spot for at least that long, but this topic is projecting the future from today, not prospect quality and not the future outlook in six years. Vlasic is 23 today and signed long term in Chicago. You can't really discount him as part of the future blue line even if your scenario comes true and they don't compete in that time.

As for the bit about whether or not there is a #1 and #2 in the system, many would disagree with you but it isn't worth debating online. That will all play out on its own

I have a hard time imagining them reaching the playoffs before 2031.The current base is very weak, and so is the prospect pool. The team has regressed again this year, and it will take time and progression to approach and then reach the playoffs. By the time the future top 5 picks from the 2026/2027 drafts reach maturity in the NHL, it will already be the 2030/31 season.

Let's say that your defenders 1 and 2, if they are Levshunov and Korchinski, have seasons that are much lower compared to their age, the standard expected of a defender 1 and 2, If it's these guys, it won't be until very close to 2030.

 

[CallMeShaft]

I have a hard time imagining them reaching the playoffs before 2031.The current base is very weak, and so is the prospect pool. The team has regressed again this year, and it will take time and progression to approach and then reach the playoffs. By the time the future top 5 picks from the 2026/2027 drafts reach maturity in the NHL, it will already be the 2030/31 season.

Let's say that your defenders 1 and 2, if they are Levshunov and Korchinski, have seasons that are much lower compared to their age, the standard expected of a defender 1 and 2, If it's these guys, it won't be until very close to 2030.

While I wouldn't say the team has gotten better this season, they do have 4 more points than last year with 3 games left (as of this writing). They also were -111 goal differential in the 23-24 season, and are only at -71 at this point this season.

They didn't regress, they just didn't take off.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

While I wouldn't say the team has gotten better this season, they do have 4 more points than last year with 3 games left (as of this writing). They didn't regress, they just didn't take off.

A few more points were obtained with the arrival of Teravainen, Martinez, Bertuzzi, and Mikheyev. These guys aren't in the future. The team was a sellout again this season (Jones, Hall). The team's momentum is still negative.

We still don't know who will surround Bedard in the future top 6. We still don't know who the No. 1 goalie will be. The defensemen who will be No. 1 and No. 2. This is still a sign of a team still at the beginning of its rebuilding cycle, even though it's already been under pressure for several years with questionable draft picks.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I have a hard time imagining them reaching the playoffs before 2031.The current base is very weak, and so is the prospect pool. The team has regressed again this year, and it will take time and progression to approach and then reach the playoffs.

Trolling now

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Trolling now

If you see Chicago being able to make the playoffs in the next few years, I might very well think you're trolling. The difference between you and me is that I have the ability to argue.

I'm ready to listen to your arguments. On what current and future basis can Chicago play in the playoffs in the next five years ?

 

[WarriorofTime]

If you see Chicago being able to make the playoffs in the next few years, I might very well think you're trolling. The difference between you and me is that I have the ability to argue.

I'm ready to listen to your arguments. On what current and future basis can Chicago play in the playoffs in the next five years ?

Calling the prospect pool weak is just stupid. Obviously it’s possible prospects don’t pan out but that’s obviously just you trying to get a rise out of people (hence trolling). Like you are obviously not randomly out here scouting all these players objectively and forming a smart and informed basis to determine every pick was incorrect and project low end outcomes for every single prospect. Five years? Who the heck knows. Would depend obviously first on prospects and then how the currently clean cap is allocated. If you “can’t see it” then you lack deeper thinking to imagine possibilities.