What makes Yzerman rated so high

[canucks4ever]

My argument is not with your basic premise; rather, it is with your main argument.


Namely, that "when his career is over, his playoff resume will laugh at yzerman's".

That is projection. In a serious debate or discussion, that sort of argument would be tossed.

My main argument is that Yzerman is not even one of the best playoff performers of all times. I try to represent each era of hockey, it makes no sense when everyone lists only modern players. Crosby already has 3 runs of over 18 points, all he needs is 1 more big run and his playoff career is already better. I value peak, not padding forever.

Yzerman had two great playoff runs, Crosby already has 2. So unless crosby gets bounced out of the first round for 10 years like yzerman did, i dont see how his resume wont end up better. Also its alot easier to rack up 185 playoff points when a large chunk of it occured from 1984-1997, a substantially higher era for scoring.

I'm sorry, how many times has Yzerman scored over 25 points in the playoffs?

A projection would be stating that Crosby will end up better than stan mikita, jaromir jagr or bobby hull. That is a projection, stating that he will end up better than yzerman is not exactly a projection since crosby is in a different league compared to him.

 

[Blizzard]

So you base players on how many games they can play rather than how good they were. Crosby is a better player than yzerman ever was, dont kid yourself. Crosby doesnt need 5-8 hall of famers in order to produce in the playoffs.

So following that line of thinking you would have no problem ranking Pelle Lindbergh above Martin Brodeur right?

 

[Unaffiliated]

Yzerman had two great playoff runs, Crosby already has 2. So unless crosby gets bounced out of the first round for 10 years like yzerman did, i dont see how his resume wont end up better.

That's the whole point. Your post was just a prediction that you passed off as fact.


See: Eric Lindros.



edit: just for the record, i don't even like yzerman very much.

 

[canucks4ever]

That's the whole point. Your post was just a prediction that you passed off as fact.


See: Eric Lindros.



edit: just for the record, i don't even like yzerman very much.

Crosby has already surpassed eric lindros. As a matter of fact, crosby has already played more games at a top 5 scoring pace than yzerman, and yzerman was in the league for 22 seasons.

I dont know why you keep mentioning eric lindros. How many deep playoff runs did lindros have, 1? Lindros choked once he got to the finals and was embarassed by lidstrom, lidstrom shut him down, not yzerman.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I noticed the only players that got mentioned in the other thread for great playoff performers were forwards, yeah the goalies and defenseman must have sucked in the playoffs.

I don't know if you saw my breakdown in the "1993" thread, but no other goalie really separated himself from the pack in the Save Percentage era like Roy did, so there may be some rightful trepidation to list a different goalie of the past 30 years. Turk Broda is a bit of a beast, himself, but I can't see him making a list without Ted Kennedy making it first. Maybe Ken Dryden, but he was almost definitively better in the regular season, and a playoff specific list might make one more inclined to give the nod to a player who improved in the Spring.

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=31408501&postcount=113

 

[canucks4ever]

So following that line of thinking you would have no problem ranking Pelle Lindbergh above Martin Brodeur right?

on what basis was pelle lindbergh better? Broduer's 1997 and 2007 season were easily better than anything lindbergh did.

 

[Blizzard]

on what basis was pelle lindbergh better? Broduer's 1997 and 2007 season were easily better than anything lindbergh did.

Lindbergh won the Vezina, was a First team All Star, and took his team to a Stanley Cup only to lose the Oilers Dynasty. So if I use the same "what if" logic you are using for Crosby I can rightly assume that Lindbergh would have won many more Vezinas and been a first team All Star several more times and won Stanley Cups assuming they didn't run into the Oilers every year.

 

[canucks4ever]

Lindebergh won the Vezina, was a First team All Star, and took his team to a Stanley Cup only to lose the Oilers Dynasty. So if I use the same "what if" logic you are using for Crosby I can rightly assume that Lindbergh would have won many more Vezinas and been a first team All Star several more times and won Stanley Cups assuming they didn't run into the Oilers every year.

Your acting like this is 2007 where crosby was the beginning of his career. Its 2011 now, crosby has been a beast the last 3 years in the playoffs, we are one month away from the playoffs, this year alone could make him higher than yzerman.

 

[Blizzard]

Your acting like this is 2007 where crosby was the beginning of his career. Its 2011 now, crosby has been a beast the last 3 years in the playoffs, we are one month away from the playoffs, this year alone could make him higher than yzerman.

Not acting like anything. Just showing that it is way to early to put Crosby above Yzerman. In '85 I'm sure many "assumed" Lindbergh was going to be better than Bernie Parent. Tragically, he never had the chance to show how good he "could've" been.

 

[canucks4ever]

Not acting like anything. Just showing that it is way to early to put Crosby above Yzerman. In '85 I'm sure many "assumed" Lindbergh was going to be better than Bernie Parent. Tragically, he never had the chance to show how good he "could've" been.

Well not to discredit a deceased person, but every philly goalie from the 80s was havinng an elite year. Whether it was peeters, lindberh, frose or hextall. Im guesing mccrimmon, marsh and howe had alot to due with thier success.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Everything you need to know about Yzerman can be summed up with one shift in the 1996 Playoffs where he strips Gretzky in game 7 OT and fires a rocket to win the series.

As a Flames fan when he went down in 04 I knew we won the series cause Detroit lost their leader.

I always have a hard time describing any player on a single play, it falls way to much into the myth making realm for me.

Despite having seemingly flawless credentials when they are simply listed out, Yzerman is a bit of a tricky player to evaluate due to the dual nature of his career when it's considered on a year-by-year basis. I'd venture to guess (although I could very well be wrong about this) that he would be even more highly regarded (by historians, not by fans who overrate him to begin with by calling him a top 10 or 20 player of all-time, etc.) if his offensive peak had coincided with his period of team success.

Interesting thought and I think the next quote sums up on how alot of people feel about it.

I would have to disagree. The fact that Yzerman 'changed' his game adds to his legend, as if he overcame huge obstacles to finally triumph.

Curiously, I would say that Joe Sakic was the same player, and his team success came during the peak of his offensive abilities. You could also say his entire career was a peak. Yet he's rated a bit lower than Yzerman for some reason.

Why doesn't Mike Modano get the same credit then as Steve or Joe or is cup counting going on here a little bit?

Steve Y was a great player but does get over ranked a bit in this section sometimes IMO but his overall ranking of 36 on the top 100 list at the heading of the history section does seem a little low to me as well.

 

[Borlag]

Bourque was easily more dominant as a defenseman than yzerman was as a forward. The fact that you would rank yzerman above bourque shows that you didnt watch hockey. Bourque carried teams with half the depth that yzerman's teams had. Bouruqe was a great playoff performer his whole career, yzerman was labelled as a joe thornton until his early 30's.

So the fact that Yzerman wasn't able to win cups straight away, make him a poor playoff performer, while the fact that Bourque wasn't able to win squat in Boston makes him a playoff performer? Why is it a knock against Yzerman that he couldn't win without Fedorov, Lidström, Shanahan and the others, while someone like Bourque gets a free pass for not winning anything before joining teams with Sakic, Forsberg and Roy?

Almost pointless trying to argue with someone, who changes the standards everytime he has to prove a point, yet fail miserably in doing so.

 

[Debrincat93]

Wow, this thread is so asinine its unreal. Most of you probably only saw him actually play a handful of times or remember him playing and it was near the end. He played on basically one leg for over 8 years. No joke, they said he should have retired years before he did because his knee was that jacked up. If he was healthy his entire career, this wouldn't even be a topic. The man was a tremendous leader, clutch for key goals in the playoffs on big time opponents and the list could go on.

I've never seen so much disgrace in one thread in my life.

 

[Debrincat93]

So the fact that Yzerman wasn't able to win cups straight away, make him a poor playoff performer, while the fact that Bourque wasn't able to win squat in Boston makes him a playoff performer? Why is it a knock against Yzerman that he couldn't win without Fedorov, Lidström, Shanahan and the others, while someone like Bourque gets a free pass for not winning anything before joining teams with Sakic, Forsberg and Roy?

Almost pointless trying to argue with someone, who changes the standards everytime he has to prove a point, yet fail miserably in doing so.

In before the "he played with better players in Detroit then Ray did in Boston..."

In before the "he was a defense-man, not a forward"...

In before the "more stupid comments that will arise."

 

[Debrincat93]

I'm sorry, how many times has Yzerman scored over 25 points in the playoffs?

Really guy? really? Terrible argument. How much was actually demanded of Yzerman to score and produce in order to win?

Yzerman's cup teams > Crosbys in terms of scoring depth. Truth hurts don't it?

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Your acting like this is 2007 where crosby was the beginning of his career. Its 2011 now, crosby has been a beast the last 3 years in the playoffs, we are one month away from the playoffs, this year alone could make him higher than yzerman.

Crosby's all-around game in 08-10 is not what it was this year, and well behind
where Yzerman's game was in the mid 90s-early 00s.

Crosby was a beast for sure though.

 

[Sens Rule]

Crosby's all-around game in 08-10 is not what it was this year, and well behind
where Yzerman's game was in the mid 90s-early 00s.

Crosby was a beast for sure though.

Disagree. I think Crosby in 2008 to this season is superior to what Yzerman EVER was. But so what? Crosby is the defacto best player in the world, the fact Yzerman's peak was not what Crosby's has been does not negatively reflect on Yzerman. Crosby is a sick, sick player. And his all-round game is fantastic and keeps getting better.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Disagree. I think Crosby in 2008 to this season is superior to what Yzerman EVER was. But so what? Crosby is the defacto best player in the world, the fact Yzerman's peak was not what Crosby's has been does not negatively reflect on Yzerman. Crosby is a sick, sick player. And his all-round game is fantastic and keeps getting better.

I think that is debatable - but I had meant to single out intangible and defensive play during their playoff runs. Crosby was better offensively in 08-10 than Cup winning Yzerman, but Yzerman brought so much else to the table, and his defensive game was much better.

I think all signs point to Crosby continuing to develop his overall game, but it did not exist when he first started playing in the NHL.

 

[Unaffiliated]

Crosby has already surpassed eric lindros. As a matter of fact, crosby has already played more games at a top 5 scoring pace than yzerman, and yzerman was in the league for 22 seasons.

I dont know why you keep mentioning eric lindros. How many deep playoff runs did lindros have, 1? Lindros choked once he got to the finals and was embarassed by lidstrom, lidstrom shut him down, not yzerman.

I'm not comparing Crosby to Lindros; I'm saying that it's entirely possible that Crosby's career ends abruptly just like Lindros', at the height of his prime.

 

[YzerTheMan*]

I think he's ranked at around the right spot, but I don't know why. Only know its popular opinion.

He never won an Art Ross nor a Hart, however I'm not sure where in terms of voting he was each year.
and he didn't get it done in the playoffs until much later in his career.

Prime years are usually around 28 - 33 y.o.
He wasn't exactly spectacular, not finishing top 5 in scoring during that time

First of all I didn't read the thread yet so i don't know if this has been said. His "prime years" were earlier because of the injuries he sustained. As he got older he was playing on increasingly bad knees and add in the fact he changed his game with the arrival of Bowman. His offensive numbers aren't as high as they would be had he continued injury free playing the same game.

If Yzerman had remained healthy and played on bad teams where all he was accountable for was scoring he would of topped 700 maybe even 800 goals. If you think I am wrong about this look at his career trajectory and where the injuries happened and the change in his game. He easily lost out on 100+ goals. Anyone that says Yzerman is over rated is young and doesn't know what they are talking about. If anything Yzerman is underrated around here.

 

[YzerTheMan*]

I pick Sakic over Yzerman, specifically because he was able to raise his defensive game without sacrificing offense.

There is an undue perception of Yzerman sacrificing offense for defense. By the time Bowman arrived and he switched to a more defensive game two things were going on. The league had transitioned from wide open play and high scoring to a more defensive tight play style of play. second and more importantly by this point Yzerman had already been in the league for 13 or so years and had endure some serious knee injuries slowing him from the player he once was as far as offense is concerned. Even with this he was still able to put up 95 points in 96-96..

 

[Seanconn*]

There is an undue perception of Yzerman sacrificing offense for defense. By the time Bowman arrived and he switched to a more defensive game two things were going on. The league had transitioned from wide open play and high scoring to a more defensive tight play style of play. second and more importantly by this point Yzerman had already been in the league for 13 or so years and had endure some serious knee injuries slowing him from the player he once was as far as offense is concerned. Even with this he was still able to put up 95 points in 95-96..

95-96 was still a pretty high scoring season... his 85 points the following season is equally impressive to 95 the year before.

same with his above ppg season in 99/00 where Jagr won the Art Ross with 96 points

 

[Stephen]

Lindbergh won the Vezina, was a First team All Star, and took his team to a Stanley Cup only to lose the Oilers Dynasty. So if I use the same "what if" logic you are using for Crosby I can rightly assume that Lindbergh would have won many more Vezinas and been a first team All Star several more times and won Stanley Cups assuming they didn't run into the Oilers every year.

In what hypothetical world are Crosby and Lindbergh even remotely analogous to one another?

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

When all is said and done Crosby might be top 5 all time if he comes back an effective player from the concussion and goes on another 8 years or so (the top 4 seem to be set for a while). Nobody puts Yzerman around the top 10 so it's not even really a just comparison in the context of this thread.

 

[Dangler99*]

Crosby is already on his way to being one of the greatest playoff players of all time. 82 points in 62 games with a Championship and a finals appearance at the age of 23 is incredible.