Player Discussion What is the solution to this teams consistency problem?

[jbeck5]

I don't agree with Boucher/Martin style coaching for this team, but I do completely agree with you in that our top forwards cheat. I don't know if this was so ingrained in them from the start of their careers that its too late now, but it's beyond frustrating. Stu has gotten slightly better at this, but

Brady is and has always been one of the worst offenders. I think he is hindered by his speed quite a bit and if he were to start in the defensive zone he wouldn't generate much offense. The other problem with Brady as well is that he is not a great cycle forward. He can protect the puck and win puck battles but he's poor at offensive reads and sustaining pressure.

In terms of the question posed by the thread starter - it's hard to be consistent when we don't have a strong base to rely on. There's no superstar player like Mackinnon or McDavid on this team that we can count on to just take over and put the team on their back. The top line plays a rush heavy, turnover based offensive style that is very susceptible to game-to-game changes and puck luck.

I wonder what would get these guys to handle their own zone first if not for a hard defensive coach that won't give you ice time unless you know how to defend first.

Are you saying let them figure it out on their own, or are you saying trade them because there's no use.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Start winning on the road fixes most things, try and get to 50%.

 

[jbeck5]

Picked other: Get core pieces back from injury, overhaul scouting staff, give it a year, overhaul the roster (soft rebuild). Do it in that order. Anyone ready to give up on the core or coach a month into the season had their mind made up about this team before any hockey was played.

I get that a few very vocal posters hate Brady, hate the roster construction, and hate the coach. While that’s fine, it’s exhausting having them act like they are Nostradamus after every loss.

To be fair, I don't think they would act like Nostradamus if people didn't give them shit for giving realistic projections.

Last year when we were pissing away the season, every poster was in agreement that we sucked, and therefore there was no one going "haha told you" after losses...it was basically just everyone going "wow, we suck so bad" and everyone was in agreement. No problem.

Then came the summer where a bunch of posters started criticizing the people who are saying "wow we suck so bad" so obviously that is going to entice the realists to come in and be like "haha, you criticized me for saying this team is mediocre and here we are, playing mediocre hockey, yet again"

If you guys would all just agree that we suck until we actually don't suck, there wouldn't be as much back and forth bickering.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not the people that say "we suck" that have been wrong all this time. It's the people who start making glamourous predictions after 2 wins that are causing the disparity in the fandom.

The team is quite clearly one of the shittiest teams over the last many years. If we can all agree on that, we can grow together when the time comes. Once the team starts clinching playoff spots and competing for division titles, we can all collectively tell the rest of the NHL that we're a good team, and we'll all be on the same page.

 

[Sting]

I wonder what would get these guys to handle their own zone first if not for a hard defensive coach that won't give you ice time unless you know how to defend first.

Are you saying let them figure it out on their own, or are you saying trade them because there's no use.

I don't think that Boucher/Martin are particularly great at getting the best out of offensive players. Martin's style worked for the Sens because they quite frankly had an abundance of great two-way players. Really - look back at that team - outside of Havlat (who was my favorite player from that era), virtually every guy on that team played a 200ft game. The OP alluded to this.

I think we've let them figure it out on their own / coached them long enough. Sometimes a guy is who he is.

My suggestion is mix up the lines and let Green have the full year before considering a trade.

I don't believe this team is a contender with a 1-2 combo of Tkachuk-Stutzle up front. And I agree with @BankStreetParade that Stutzle probably isn't the issue. Tkachuk is a fantastic support forward who has been relied on to carry the offense for many years now. It's a big ask. I think he's absolutely a core forward but I don't believe he has the talent to drive offense the way a superstar does.

Since a trade is out of the question for either of these two guys, you either hope that Tkachuk-Norris develop chemistry again and that different guys click with Stutzle, or you need to get creative and find a very good forward who can play with Tim. That will be tough because good ol' Pierre drained our assets and we're not in a position to trade a 1st or Yak.

 

[SanderSen]

The reasonable objective for the season was to be in the mix for a playoff spot, which is where they are. Silly troll poll questions.

Big changes in the team ownership and management and team makeup. It takes time. I remember Jersey in its winning days when the puttered along in the first half using it to tweak, practice and get it together.

 

[Micklebot]

As I said in my post, we can DISREGARD Winnipeg and San Jose. Glad you're reading the entire post before scrambling to hammer out your response.

Yes, I read your entire post, arneil was brought up to highlight what a coaching change is actually about, system change. Throwing out the top and bottom arbitrarily doesn't make the data any more compelling

14 games into the year in 2023, they had a ... .571 p%. What's significantly better about the exact same p% from the same time frame as the year before?

What's more indicative of the team, last year's start, or a much bigger sample? Are they closer to being the same team that finished last year or the same team that started last year?

NJ had a .577 p% through the comparable stretch last year. This year they're at .600. More or less the same with a slight improvement.

Again, goaltending was massively improved this offseason, they weren't a bad team last year, they were a team with injury issues and bad goaltending, so is switching the coach why they are doing well or is it everything else? Was there big changes to the system,

Blue Jackets not expected to be very good. Beating expectations. Kraken, who knows what's going on with them. Lost 4 in a row.

Massive roster change?

9/14 roster forwards still the same as last year.
6/7 defensemen still the same as last year.
New starting goalie.
All of the new forwards are playing on the third or fourth line.

Perron, Jensen, Kleven, Gregor, Cousins, Gaudette, Amadio, and Ullmark are all new regulars in the lineup, over a third of the roster, exactly as I said.


You haven't really presented any compelling evidence against it taking time for players to adapt to new systems,

 

[darude]

I'll preface this comment by saying I generally agree prospects need to be developing in their appropriate leagues and not rushed.

But I gotta ask, if we had Yakemchuk in the lineup instead of Hamonic, do you think the team is better record-wise?

The question boils down to lineup flexibility amongst the D IMO. I don't think the core needs changing but Dorion locking down two years of Hamonic when it's clear his prime is behind him has made the team struggle.

The coaching staff's main failure is not really giving Sanderson/JBD and Hamonic/Kleven a shot for a bunch of games once they knew Zub was out more than a game or two. Having a dude beyond his prime play 17+/night is a problem. Your bottom pairing D-man who should be your healthy scratch most games shouldn't jump up to 9th in TOI for the team on the season.

 

[jbeck5]

I don't think that Boucher/Martin are particularly great at getting the best out of offensive players. Martin's style worked for the Sens because they quite frankly had an abundance of great two-way players. Really - look back at that team - outside of Havlat (who was my favorite player from that era), virtually every guy on that team played a 200ft game. The OP alluded to this.

I think we've let them figure it out on their own / coached them long enough. Sometimes a guy is who he is.

My suggestion is mix up the lines and let Green have the full year before considering a trade.

I don't believe this team is a contender with a 1-2 combo of Tkachuk-Stutzle up front. And I agree with @BankStreetParade that Stutzle probably isn't the issue. Tkachuk is a fantastic support forward who has been relied on to carry the offense for many years now. It's a big ask. I think he's absolutely a core forward but I don't believe he has the talent to drive offense the way a superstar does.

Since a trade is out of the question for either of these two guys, you either hope that Tkachuk-Norris develop chemistry again and that different guys click with Stutzle, or you need to get creative and find a very good forward who can play with Tim. That will be tough because good ol' Pierre drained our assets and we're not in a position to trade a 1st or Yak.

I alluded to this lol I've been saying none of our forwards are 200ft players but everyone was 200ft players under Jacques.

Is it that all these guys were born as defense first players or did Jacques help develop that side of their game?
Like how much influence did Jacques have in Alfredsson, Hossa, bonk, fisher, arvedson, Schaefer, etc all be great 2 way players?

I'd have to go look at all these players scouting reports pre draft and see if they were known as super defensively responsible, because I don't remember hearing that, but also don't study juniors that much... especially not when I was like 10 years old lol

I agree with you that were missing a true #1 piece that Brady or stutzle don't seem to be...they don't have the Karlsson level of superstardom where they can drag a mediocre roster into the playoffs single handedly like we've seen from a handful of superstars. They're rare, but you don't need a generational talent...


My issue is you don't get that guy through trades often...you have to draft them.


So we either have to land a first overall pick which we'll never do...or we find a Datsyuk/stone/Alfredsson/Zetterberg type hall of famer with a 6th round pick...


Either way, I don't think this core wins a championship without an ever better player at the top.

So do we waste years or do we make a plan to get that player and then make sure to surround them properly?


We have good players, we just don't have a mega star that 8 or 9 out of 10 winners seem to have. They either have a superstar like a Crosby, Ovechkin, kucherov, kane or they have an ultra clutch player like a Bergeron or stone.

It's almost never just a solid team with no superstars. There are the rare LA or St Louis wins, but the big majority are set up with some type of superstar who's a top 5-10 player in the league at all positions year in and year out.

If you don't have that top 5-10 player, you're behind the 8 ball for sure.

 

[Sting]

I alluded to this lol I've been saying none of our forwards are 200ft players but everyone was 200ft players under Jacques.

Is it that all these guys were born as defense first players or did Jacques help develop that side of their game?
Like how much influence did Jacques have in Alfredsson, Hossa, bonk, fisher, arvedson, Schaefer, etc all be great 2 way players?

I'd have to go look at all these players scouting reports pre draft and see if they were known as super defensively responsible, because I don't remember hearing that, but also don't study juniors that much... especially not when I was like 10 years old lol

Well the game was different then, though. Things are much more free-flowing and open than it was. I tend to think a good chunk of it is instincts, but no doubt a great defensively minded coach can hone that. Martin clearly did that with those players.

I just have a hard time seeing some of these guys turn into defensive stalwarts especially with Tkachuk because of speed, and Stu because of strength on the puck/strength in general.

 

[jbeck5]

I'll preface this comment by saying I generally agree prospects need to be developing in their appropriate leagues and not rushed.

But I gotta ask, if we had Yakemchuk in the lineup instead of Hamonic, do you think the team is better record-wise?

The question boils down to lineup flexibility amongst the D IMO. I don't think the core needs changing but Dorion locking down two years of Hamonic when it's clear his prime is behind him has made the team struggle.

The coaching staff's main failure is not really giving Sanderson/JBD and Hamonic/Kleven a shot for a bunch of games once they knew Zub was out more than a game or two. Having a dude beyond his prime play 17+/night is a problem. Your bottom pairing D-man who should be your healthy scratch most games shouldn't jump up to 9th in TOI for the team on the season.

This bothers me too.

When your third best defenseman is out with an injury, you promote your 4th best defenseman, and than your 5th best defenseman as they are more suited to increased minutes.

You don't take your 7th defenseman and put him in your #3 spot. That's asking for struggles.

 

[vandelay]

Pinto coming back and Greig developing into more of an offensive threat.

Brady brings a lot of missing elements but requires a strong defensive player to support steutzle defensively.

Batherson has an elite offensive sillset but needs someone reliable helping out norris in our end.

I think batherson strggles less on defending neutral and dzone but brady is more reliable on the breakout. Batherson turns it over when he's not moving his feet.

 

[Micklebot]

This bothers me too.

When your third best defenseman is out with an injury, you promote your 4th best defenseman, and than your 5th best defenseman as they are more suited to increased minutes.

You don't take your 7th defenseman and put him in your #3 spot. That's asking for struggles.

Hamonic was in the lineup before Zub got hurt, for better or worse the coach sees him as our 3rd best RHD. We aren't promoting Kleven to the Right side, so the options are JBD and Hamonic unless you want to break up Jensen and Chabot disrupting both top 4 pairings.

I don't really think JBD vs Hamonic makes a huge difference even if I'd have preferred JBD with Sanderson

 

[jbeck5]

Well the game was different then, though. Things are much more free-flowing and open than it was. I tend to think a good chunk of it is instincts, but no doubt a great defensively minded coach can hone that. Martin clearly did that with those players.

I just have a hard time seeing some of these guys turn into defensive stalwarts especially with Tkachuk because of speed, and Stu because of strength on the puck/strength in general.

I think it's because it's too late. It was needed to be done in their rookie and sophomore years and instilled by their third year for sure.

Bonk wasn't fast, like Tkachuk, but he was defensively responsible, didn't cost a fortune, and could put up 55-70 points in his prime.

I wonder if Tkachuk was a very defensively responsible forward and only put up 20-25 goals and 60-70 points, if we would be better off in the standings.

In terms of strength, you don't have to be super strong...you just have to be positionally strong. Arvedson was very lanky and would get overpowered in scrums...but always in the right spot defensively. Same with Schaefer...super lightweight yet amazing along the boards because he was shifty. So stutzle should look at them.

I agree the game has changed. The reason I go back to the previous sens teams is because whenever I compare to current teams in the league I always get told of different reasons of why it's not a fair comparison... "Not fair, they have low taxes...of course they'll attract better players" or "can't compare to the Florida teams because they have good weather" and the list goes on...so I've gotten in the habit to just compare this small market Canadian team to the exact same small market Canadian team that would have had the same competitive disadvantages as before.

 

[Norris4Norris]

Hopefully the consistency of the team gets better as more games are played.

Whatever routine they have at home I would try to mimic on the road because they are doing something right at home.

I remember that Crosby would practice a shot over and over again visualizing it and then somehow scoring the exact goal in a game. The Sens have to visualize the win and get it any way possible.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I think it's because it's too late. It was needed to be done in their rookie and sophomore years and instilled by their third year for sure.

Bonk wasn't fast, like Tkachuk, but he was defensively responsible, didn't cost a fortune, and could put up 55-70 points in his prime.

I wonder if Tkachuk was a very defensively responsible forward and only put up 20-25 goals and 60-70 points, if we would be better off in the standings.

In terms of strength, you don't have to be super strong...you just have to be positionally strong. Arvedson was very lanky and would get overpowered in scrums...but always in the right spot defensively. Same with Schaefer...super lightweight yet amazing along the boards because he was shifty. So stutzle should look at them.

I agree the game has changed. The reason I go back to the previous sens teams is because whenever I compare to current teams in the league I always get told of different reasons of why it's not a fair comparison... "Not fair, they have low taxes...of course they'll attract better players" or "can't compare to the Florida teams because they have good weather" and the list goes on...so I've gotten in the habit to just compare this small market Canadian team to the exact same small market Canadian team that would have had the same competitive disadvantages as before.

I look back at those teams fondly, but they never won anything of consequence always falling short, and the Leafs made them their bitch in embarrassing fashion, so I find it hard to hold them up as the standard, but certainly their regular season success was remarkable and maybe that should be the goal.

 

[jbeck5]

Hamonic was in the lineup before Zub got hurt, for better or worse the coach sees him as our 3rd best RHD. We aren't promoting Kleven to the Right side, so the options are JBD and Hamonic unless you want to break up Jensen and Chabot disrupting both top 4 pairings.

I don't really think JBD vs Hamonic makes a huge difference even if I'd have preferred JBD with Sanderson

Maybe there's too much emphasis on LD vs RD.

When the sens were there best,

Chara, redden, Phillips, volchenkov, all LEFT shooters. No problem. That's your top 4.

I was listening to a podcast the other week from the summer...I believe it was Yorkie and redden or Yorkie and Phillips and they said playing left or right wasn't really a thing and they would switch all the time and it wasn't a problem playing on your off side.

I wonder why it's such a problem with our current set of defenseman.

I look back at those teams fondly, but they never won anything of consequence always falling short, and the Leafs made them their bitch in embarrassing fashion, so I find it hard to hold them up as the standard, but certainly their regular season success was remarkable and maybe that should be the goal.

Make the playoffs consistently and then the focus should be about how to adjust to go far in the playoffs.

Like for example. Ottawa's problem was getting "outgritted" in the playoffs... So the Leafs acquire Corson and Roberts and the sens acquire Peter bondra?

The issue was they literally did nothing to adjust to be a better playoff team. That core could have been a winner if they made the proper additions.

Why wasn't Ottawa saying "nevermind Peter bondra, let's go for Gary Roberts!" As an example?

 

[BondraTime]

I’ll tell you what, Zub coming back is huge.

Hamonic back on the 3rd pair and JBD sitting is absolutely moronic.

Absolutely, utterly, moronic.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Make the playoffs consistently and then the focus should be about how to adjust to go far in the playoffs.

Agreed, I just hope it doesn't come with constant choking and having a rival being our daddy this time around.

 

[jbeck5]

Agreed, I just hope it doesn't come with constant choking and having a rival being our daddy this time around.

That's the lack of adjustments. They never got grittier.

We literally finally had more grit with Neil being added to Andre Roy and we just trade Roy away for yuha ylonen...why? Why trade grit away for some invisible player when you already are filled with responsible players but lack grit? Roy went on to win the cup in Tampa. Lol

Or why trade for barrasso when goaltending wasnt our issue at the time? Tugnutt/Rhodes were a reason for our success, not the reason for the lack of success. We literally got rid of our defensive depth (laukannen) to downgrade our goaltending because he was older and won a decade before on a stacked Pittsburgh team...greattt. tugnutt was the better goalie at the time already.

 

[Micklebot]

Maybe there's too much emphasis on LD vs RD.

When the sens were there best,

Chara, redden, Phillips, volchenkov, all LEFT shooters. No problem. That's your top 4.

I was listening to a podcast the other week from the summer...I believe it was Yorkie and redden or Yorkie and Phillips and they said playing left or right wasn't really a thing and they would switch all the time and it wasn't a problem playing on your off side.

I wonder why it's such a problem with our current set of defenseman.



Make the playoffs consistently and then the focus should be about how to adjust to go far in the playoffs.

It's interesting that they would say that because other D have said the opposite, heck, I think Yorkie used to highlight how it impacted Brannstrom defensively when he played his offside.

It really comes down to the player, some guys can do it, others not so much. It changes how you need to position yourself defending the rush, you need to be better at making plays off the backhand and you need to be able to skate to give yourself some extra room.

I would not be comfortable putting a rookie in Kleven on his offside, particularly if that's something he hasn't done much of, and I don't want to put Chabot with Sanderson.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

That's the lack of adjustments. They never got grittier.

We literally finally had more grit with Neil being added to Andre Roy and we just trade Roy away for yuha ylonen...why? Why trade grit away for some invisible player when you already are filled with responsible players but lack grit? Roy went on to win the cup in Tampa. Lol

Or why trade for barrasso when goaltending wasnt our issue at the time? Tugnutt/Rhodes were a reason for our success, not the reason for the lack of success. We literally got rid of our defensive depth (laukannen) to downgrade our goaltending because he was older and won a decade before on a stacked Pittsburgh team...greattt. tugnutt was the better goalie at the time already.

That's a tough one for me. Leafs always had the goaltending advantage whether it was Joseph or Belfour, so that wasn't going to be overcome with Tugger or Rhodes, or anyone else they had during that time. Nor was a guy like Roy going to make enough of a difference. He was a borderline 4th line tough guy. They were close, and an ingredient was obviously missing, but I don't know if I think it was easily solvable and that group losing to the Toronto group was built in to their DNA. Agreed though, that Barasso move was stupid.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

These issues are chronic my man. It's not too early.

Travis Green has had a total of 12 games to get this team playing the way he wants. That is not nearly enough. But despite that they've been more good than bad. We win 5 of our next 8 and we're right there to challenge for the playoffs the rest of the year.

There is definitely still a fair share of bad to be coached out of the players that have been for years but the team has made progress.

Wait and see how the next 20-25 games play out. I think we'll be satisfied with the results.

 

[jbeck5]

It's interesting that they would say that because other D have said the opposite, heck, I think Yorkie used to highlight how it impacted Brannstrom defensively when he played his offside.

It really comes down to the player, some guys can do it, others not so much. It changes how you need to position yourself defending the rush, you need to be better at making plays off the backhand and you need to be able to skate to give yourself some extra room.

I would not be comfortable putting a rookie in Kleven on his offside, particularly if that's something he hasn't done much of, and I don't want to put Chabot with Sanderson.

He did say the opposite for brannstrom, you're right. But he followed it up with how it wasn't an issue at all when he was with the sens back in the day. Like you said, some can do it and some can't.

I guess we need to get more versatile D?

Looking at the 4 I mentioned, 2 of them had no problem excelling on their off side.

I also don't remember it being as much of an issue. I don't recall publications differentiating LD from RD because if they were good, they could do both, for the most part.

Speaking of this...anyone see Chabot and Giroux at the point on the powerplay with both on their one timer side, and Giroux asked and called for a switch...why would we ever switch to get out of the one time position...that is much more dangerous on the powerplay. I used to always see redden and Alfie switch to get on their one timers...not to get off their one timer side.

Why do we never set up for one timers on the pp? We don't have Josh on the half boards like a couple years ago...we didn't use chychruns big shot on the point last year.

I see other teams being deadly with one timers but we never seem to use them.

Liked when Alfredsson/Karlsson/Gonchar were setting up one timers too.

 

[Beech]

Travis Green has had a total of 12 games to get this team playing the way he wants. That is not nearly enough. But despite that they've been more good than bad. We win 5 of our next 8 and we're right there to challenge for the playoffs the rest of the year.

There is definitely still a fair share of bad to be coached out of the players that have been for years but the team has made progress.

Wait and see how the next 20-25 games play out. I think we'll be satisfied with the results.

Alf,

we are at 0.500.. Pretty much in line with were we have been the last 4 years at this time.

At some point, things do have to change.

 

[Micklebot]

I guess we need to get more versatile D?

Looking at the 4 I mentioned, 2 of them had no problem excelling on their off side.

I also don't remember it being as much of an issue. I don't recall publications differentiating LD from RD because if they were good, they could do both, for the most part.

Speaking of this...anyone see Chabot and Giroux at the point on the powerplay with both on their one timer side, and Giroux asked and called for a switch...why would we ever switch to get out of the one time position...that is much more dangerous on the powerplay. I used to always see redden and Alfie switch to get on their one timers...not to get off their one timer side.

Well, the league has changed since Phillips played, D are expected to be a big part of the offense, can't hook and grab, and players in general are much faster. Might have something to do with it, but it's not unique to us, most teams don't play guys on their offside unless it's necessary