What is the solution to balancing the salary cap with no tax states?

[nbwingsfan]

1.) you have no evidence that Matthews “does this every year”. You believe it.
But we don’t know that for sure. You have to prove you have greater financial ties to the us then Canada. The 6 months plus a day rule is only one part of it. Heck the 2 weeks he spent in Canada playing round one against a Canadian team might affect it. NHL accountants have said that it’s incredibly difficult to do long term and most players don’t get to claim residency

Show one article or piece of proof that Matthews does this. An example from a Mike Grier and JB was posted indicating the tax situation affects the money you pay ufas.

Show an article that quotes Matthews doing this. I will wait.

2.) no. This is not true. It is an example of how wrong amateur tax experts here are. As I have said for years. The Canadian government wants its money. They can argue for it. It is NOT just about the days in a country. It is about proving greater financial ties ties.

You think you know more than Brissons agency? Ok. Also. The CRA has gone after multiple athletes over the “solutions”
Everyone is sure are so easy. Like the “Allan Walsh special” RCAs. Talk to the blue jays about that.

Corson. Bautista just to name a few. All of them just screwed up residency?

It’s not a Tavares issue.

Keep going:
Pitt - SJ
Chicago- Tampa
LA- NYR
CHI- BOS
LA- NJ
BOS- VAN
DET- PITT
DET- PITT
ANA- OTT
CAR- EDM

One single tax free team. We’re simply in a cycle right now where the tax free teams are being well run. It’s as simple as that.

I’ll put this here again since you seemed to have missed it…

 

[TheDoldrums]

Players: the no tax thing matters

HF: actually did you know Anaheim and Ottawa played in the Cup final 20 years ago? Checkmate.

 

[wmupreds]

Players: the no tax thing matters

HF: actually did you know Anaheim and Ottawa played in the Cup final 20 years ago? Checkmate.

This is literally fake, Friedman's podcast didn't bring up Marchessault. He also only has a 15 team NTC so he can't "only accept a trade to 5 teams."

The actual smoke/speculation around Marchessault is that he may be interested in Montreal... mostly from Seravalli, so take it for what it's worth.

 

[ItWasJustified]

This is literally fake, Friedman's podcast didn't bring up Marchessault. He also only has a 15 team NTC so he can't "only accept a trade to 5 teams."

The actual smoke/speculation around Marchessault is that he may be interested in Montreal... mostly from Seravalli, so take it for what it's worth.

What are you smoking? He literally talked about Marchessault in the latest episode that was released yesterday. And there's 32 teams in the NHL, not 20 so if he has a 15 NTC he'll be forced to accept a trade to 17 teams.

 

[wmupreds]

What are you smoking? He literally talked about Marchessault in the latest episode that was released yesterday. And there's 32 teams in the NHL, not 20 so if he has a 15 NTC he'll be forced to accept a trade to 17 teams.

Actually, my mistake. I went through the podcast earlier and somehow missed it. It wasn't quite as clear as that Twitter account made it sound though.

But yeah, that was my point about the NTC. He can't exactly limit a trade to only no tax teams.

 

[Legion34]

It’s crazy [mod], that numerous posters keep mentioning where you get things wrong.

The cherry picking is even funnier.

I’ll put this here again since you seemed to have missed it…

Why are you posting years prior to the major contractual changes instituted in 2014 that completely changed the landscape?

 

[AnCatDubh]

Nothing has changed since those teams came into their respective markets. Suddenly 'it's a big problem'. That's some serious sub-level, flawed logic right there. Copium to the nth degree and out of touch beyond tolerance.

View attachment 1044432

The tax rates have changed by a lot. When the cap was introduced the difference in tax rates between Ontario and Florida was 7%. It is now over 16%. 7% raises an eyebrow. 16% changes behaviour.

 

[JianYang]

This is literally fake, Friedman's podcast didn't bring up Marchessault. He also only has a 15 team NTC so he can't "only accept a trade to 5 teams."

The actual smoke/speculation around Marchessault is that he may be interested in Montreal... mostly from Seravalli, so take it for what it's worth.

Whether it's real or fake, a 35 year old marchessault isn't taking a non contending team to the promised land.

This whole talk about taxes is ultimately a distraction from the other issues that are preventing teams from being contenders (regardless of their tax jurisdictions). It's straight out of the maga playbook, actually.

Funny how nobody talked about this when cups were handed out from 2010-2015.

 

[MK9]

The tax rates have changed by a lot. When the cap was introduced the difference in tax rates between Ontario and Florida was 7%. It is now over 16%. 7% raises an eyebrow. 16% changes behaviour.

Yuh. I'm sure. Keep drinking the copium. Just more excuses is all it is.

 

[Louie the Blue]

The only solution is winning.

The salary cap as it is structured is fine.

 

[AnCatDubh]

Actually what happened to Tavares was a correct ruling. He f***ed up. He already had a place in Toronto and he and the family spent a month or 2 every year on vacation (holiday if you prefer) will when he came back as a resident in mid July it changed the length of time in each place and Toronto his primary residence.

The Tavares case isn’t really about residency - it’s about the signing bonus itself. They are arguing that the signing bonus is employment income and therefore taxable in Canada (CRA is of the view that the signing bonus does not meet the technical requirements to be termed a signing bonus under the Income Tax Act). If they win this case, it will have major ramifications for Canadian teams in all sports.

CRA is also challenging his residency, but that is not what they are really after.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Why are you posting years prior to the major contractual changes instituted in 2014 that completely changed the landscape?

What do you propose to do for the advantages large markets would then have in spades over smaller markets if the tax "issue" is leveled out? Some of the perks living in high tax cities: Chicago, Toronto, New York, California, Vancouver, etc...is you get to live in a world class city and enjoy all of the ammenties offered to you. These things are simply not available in many other markets.

Is it fair Toronto can pay their superstars by giving them 96% of their contract in singing bonuses up front? How are teams like Columbus, STL, Winnipeg, Buffalo, etc...going to have that factor leveled out? What about endorsements?

This entire decade of discussion wouldn't even exist if Matthews/Marner/Tavares elevated their game in the playoffs and the Toronto media machine wasn't operated by a bunch of feral animals. Excuses after excuse after excuse. When Tampa, Florida, Dallas, and Vegas all age out in 2-3 years (it's started already for all but Florida) and we see the California teams and Chicago coming out of rebuilds what will be the excuse then?

What was the excuse when we had...

2010: CHI vs San Jose, PHI vs MTL
2011: VAN vs San Jose, BOS vs TBL
2012: LA vs PHX, NJ vs NYR
2013: CHI vs LA, BOS vs PIT
2014: CHI vs LA, NYR vs MTL
2015: CHI vs ANH, TBL vs NYR
2016: SJS vs STL, PIT vs TBL
2017: NSH vs ANH, PIT vs OTT
2018: VGK vs WPG, WSH vs TBL
2019: STL vs SJS, BOS vs CAR

23 teams out of a possible 40 of the final four came from high tax cities. 6 teams out of 40 came from no tax teams. The other 11 came from a "normal" tax state. There is zero correlation to what you're saying this is merely a specific time period we're in where Dallas, the Florida teams, and Vegas are capitalizing on their opportunities and it will be over for all of them soon. Taxes weren't invented 5 years ago pal.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Why are you posting years prior to the major contractual changes instituted in 2014 that completely changed the landscape?

What are you talking about?

No tax teams were allowed to sign the exact same contracts my guy

The only team that benefitted from that in those lists was Chicago, who beat other state taxed teams to get into the finals each of those years…

 

[ItWasJustified]

But yeah, that was my point about the NTC. He can't exactly limit a trade to only no tax teams.

I think that notion is based on Barry Trotz being a "good guy" and will treat Marchessault's 15 NTC as a full no move, just like he did with Ryan O'Reilly this past trade deadline, very much to Trotz's detriment.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Players: the no tax thing matters

HF: actually did you know Anaheim and Ottawa played in the Cup final 20 years ago? Checkmate.

Players have also stated they won’t play in Canada. Should the league get rid of country boarders as well?

 

[Legion34]

What do you propose to do for the advantages large markets would then have in spades over smaller markets if the tax "issue" is leveled out? Some of the perks living in high tax cities: Chicago, Toronto, New York, California, Vancouver, etc...is you get to live in a world class city and enjoy all of the ammenties offered to you. These things are simply not available in many other markets.

Is it fair Toronto can pay their superstars by giving them 96% of their contract in singing bonuses up front? How are teams like Columbus, STL, Winnipeg, Buffalo, etc...going to have that factor leveled out? What about endorsements?

This entire decade of discussion wouldn't even exist if Matthews/Marner/Tavares elevated their game in the playoffs and the Toronto media machine wasn't operated by a bunch of feral animals. Excuses after excuse after excuse. When Tampa, Florida, Dallas, and Vegas all age out in 2-3 years (it's started already for all but Florida) and we see the California teams and Chicago coming out of rebuilds what will be the excuse then?

What was the excuse when we had...

2010: CHI vs San Jose, PHI vs MTL
2011: VAN vs San Jose, BOS vs TBL
2012: LA vs PHX, NJ vs NYR
2013: CHI vs LA, BOS vs PIT
2014: CHI vs LA, NYR vs MTL
2015: CHI vs ANH, TBL vs NYR
2016: SJS vs STL, PIT vs TBL
2017: NSH vs ANH, PIT vs OTT
2018: VGK vs WPG, WSH vs TBL
2019: STL vs SJS, BOS vs CAR

23 teams out of a possible 40 of the final four came from high tax cities. 6 teams out of 40 came from no tax teams. The other 11 came from a "normal" tax state. There is zero correlation to what you're saying this is merely a specific time period we're in where Dallas, the Florida teams, and Vegas are capitalizing on their opportunities and it will be over for all of them soon. Taxes weren't invented 5 years ago pal.

People need to read the thread. It has been explained ad nauseam by nhls agents. GMs. Players and accountant.

1.) the nhl does NOT have to incorporate anything into a free market system. They CHOSE to implement a salary cap. They do not have to make all markets the same. They do not have to control the weather. The media. The fans. They chose to limit salaries to make it fair. Then make it fair. If the ufc has weight classes. That’s what they chose to limit. They chose not to limit height/reach/age. If a fighter gets to miss weight by 10 lbs, he doesn’t get to turn around and say “ya well he’s taller so…..”

2.) every single team has equal right to pay signing bonuses. Some may choose not to. Or they may not think it’s financially smart. Ok that’s a choice. Lack of success and personal choice are different then systemic advantages.

3.) the reason an issue becomes public in your opinion has no bearing on the issue itself. People wouldn’t have known about watergate if it wasn’t for those pesky rreporters. That doesn’t change any issue.

4.) again. The contract structure changed to stop back diving contracts. Since that time there has only been one advantage. No state taxes. That happened in 2013. Once those contracts (hossa at 5 million etc) aged out. No state tax teams took over

5.) this is also a misattribution of stats. There are only 6 no state tax teams now. Only 4 from 2004-2017. By definition. There would have had to have been at least one high state tax team in every final 4 as 2 of the 4 would have played each other. Florida and Tampa cannot make the final 4 together. Either can Dallas and Nashville

Look at the cup finalists/presidents trophy and winners in the past 10 years.

5.) it may Not be over for them. Because they don’t have to sign there stars for 14%.

Tampa got to extend it’s window by signing stamkos/kuch/vasy/point/herman for 7-9.5
In stead of 11. At least one had to go.

eventually they all age out sure. But they got to keep cores longer than everyone else.

The idea that all the no state tax teams all just magically had their times all
At the same time. And their players all just magically are selfless and took less is hilarious on its face. Never mind players ADMITTING it.

 

[Legion34]

Players have also stated they won’t play in Canada. Should the league get rid of country boarders as well?

The NHL didn’t put in a nationality cap. They put in a salary cap. Why is this hard?

 

[nbwingsfan]

The NHL didn’t put in a nationality cap. They put in a salary cap. Why is this hard?

It’s about making things fair. If you’re going to start changing the cap to adjust for taxes, then how are you also going to adjust for weather, location, entertainment, etc… why is this hard?

I see you have once again ignored the OG question I asked.

1. Why could the no tax teams also sign these front loaded contracts for even more of a gain then? Why was this only an advantage to tax teams in your mind?

2. Only Chicago actually benefited from this in the list of teams from 2006-2014, and they beat other high taxed states to get there … please address…

 

[MK9]

You said nothing has changed. It clearly has changed. Specifically when Trudeau and Trump were elected. US federal rate went down and the Canadian tax rates went up.

Sounds good. You've convinced me. 100%.

 

[Legion34]

It’s about making things fair. If you’re going to start changing the cap to adjust for taxes, then how are you also going to adjust for weather, location, entertainment, etc… why is this hard?

I see you have once again ignored the OG question I asked.

1. Why could the no tax teams also sign these front loaded contracts for even more of a gain then? Why was this only an advantage to tax teams in your mind?

2. Only Chicago actually benefited from this in the list of teams from 2006-2014, and they beat other high taxed states to get there … please address…

Because it’s not about making things fair.
The NHL doesn’t have to limit anything. They chose to limit salaries. They chose to enforce parity. They didn’t have to. They chose to.

They don’t have to limit nationalities or weather or endorsements. If you chose to make parity so all teams have to adhere to the same cap. And you punish circumvention. You have to make that specific issue fair.

The NHl doesn’t have to limit player rosters or buyouts or call ups. The chose to. They can’t allow other teams to have 5 compliance buyouts/salary retention spots and others 3. Do you get it now?

2.) i have no idea what you mean? Chicago was the only team that used back diving contracts to gain an advantage?
Are you kidding?

 

[JianYang]

The Tavares case isn’t really about residency - it’s about the signing bonus itself. They are arguing that the signing bonus is employment income and therefore taxable in Canada (CRA is of the view that the signing bonus does not meet the technical requirements to be termed a signing bonus under the Income Tax Act). If they win this case, it will have major ramifications for Canadian teams in all sports.

CRA is also challenging his residency, but that is not what they are really after.

This is going to be a landmark ruling for cross-border professional athletes.

While this assessment causes uncertainty for now, which is probably not good for Canadian teams looking to attract marquee free agents, i think what will ultimately happen is that the ruling will provide greater clarity on how to effectively structure the contracts in order to differentiate the bonus portion from employment income. It will allow for greater confidence on how to achieve the intended result.

What is interesting about the Tavares situation is that he only attempted to get the reduced rate on roughly 20% of his total bonus, which also indictates that at least some players will still be attracted to a bonus structure regardless of whether they get the preferential treaty rates.... so at least that's a positive.

 

[BHD]

Did tax free states become a thing in the U.S. over the past couple years?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Because it’s not about making things fair.
The NHL doesn’t have to limit anything. They chose to limit salaries. They chose to enforce parity. They didn’t have to. They chose to.

They chose cost certainty, as has been repeated ad nauseum by Bettman and Daly.

might as well get rid of signing bonuses then as well if making things fair.

 

[Legion34]

Did tax free states become a thing in the U.S. over the past couple years?

No. The contracts limited to 7/8 years and back diving was eliminated. Since then you have seen a massive switch.

 

[Lieutenant Bookman]

I still don’t understand why people think this is something the league would address, when there’s absolutely zero precedent for doing something like this. The desire of the NHL (and any other sports league) to have a salary cap does not mean they want to get into the business of correcting for external economic and/or policy factors beyond their control. Let’s put taxes aside and pretend they were zero everywhere. Housing, insurance, food/groceries etc all cost less in St Louis than they do in New York.A player could take less money to play for the Blues and still have a higher standard of living than they could with the Rangers. How come the NHL has never addressed that apparent advantage? Why does the NFL have the same cap for the Packers as they do for the NY Giants when the same $500k house in Green Bay costs multiple millions in New York? This is something no sports league has ever been in the business of doing, so why start now?