What is the solution to balancing the salary cap with no tax states?

[Fatass]

You really believe those same agents/tax consultancies/attorneys aren't telling them that it is NOT super favorable to be with a jurisdiction without income tax when their clients are by and large high school dropouts earning 10s of millions of dollars? There's a huge reason Canadian teams + Buffalo have to pay extra for their guys and are always the 8 teams on No Trade Lists.

Yes. The players choose these southern states because they have no pressure and can live in complete anonymity. Matt Tkatchuk already said it. Just have to open the old ears and listen.

 

[Fatass]

Good lord. Sorry but this has been going on for years. I can’t keep going back and finding all the articles.

1.) Lewis gross (Nylanders agent) firm went on 32 thoughts and said they give their players a spreadsheet and it shows them the taxes and take home salary in. Each jurisdiction

2.) this year Tampa GM literally said he uses tax advantages

3.) radulov said he signed in Dallas vs
Montreal due to tax rate

3.) Marc Méthot said he took home 700k more a year on a 4.9 salary moving from Ottawa to Dallas. Jeff Petrys agent even said there was a difference in Montreal vs Edmonton

4.) low tax market ufas sign for 11-12%
Of the cap vs comparable players in comparable markets (weather/winning) vs high tax which generally are 13.5-14.5

There was an athletic article where an NHL accountant walked through scenarios (Canadian playing in Canada/us, eurpean and American).

This year all of the top free agents signed in state tax free states. Guentzel. Reinhart. Montour. stamkos. Marchy. Skej. Stephenson.

There are tons of examples. If you google for 10 minutes. You will find them.

And ultimately it comes down to living where few care about hockey and the players can live their lives, away from the rink, in anonymity. That’s the key.

 

[danktopshelf]

Yes. The players choose these southern states because they have no pressure and can live in complete anonymity. Matt Tkatchuk already said it. Just have to open the old ears and listen.

I don't dispute that the lifestyle component is a massive part of it. In addition to great weather. But I also think giving yourself a 10-15% bonus for doing the same job can't hurt the value proposition and certainly factors into a location-agnostic move among 32 franchises across 2 countries. Tax arbitrage is a consideration.

 

[Legion34]

Wait, you think in THIS political environment, it would be POPULAR for members of the top 1% to pay less tax?

Lol

The tax issue is completely overblown.

Florida and Texas have had lower taxes for a long time, and yet the Panthers, Lightning and Stars werent hot spots for the bulk of the cap era.

Players are going their now not only for the tax benefits, but because they’re well run organizations with a good chance to win.

This ‘tax issue’ is nothing more than whining from fans of less well run teams.

This is wrong. All the state tax teams became successful as soon as the back diving deals were outlawed. Teams could get around it before by cheating and having hossa etc on 1 million deals until 43. The second they had that. It changed.

You really think alll the no state tax teams just all got magically smart at the exact same time? And all of their players just signed for less. But all the high state tax teams players are just greedy?

Really? It’s a heck of a coincidence that Florida/tampa/vegas/dallas/nashville just had the best negotiators. And players just want to take less to win there

But ask for full money in NYR, sharks, kings, Chicago, Toronto.

Heck of a coincidence

 

[Legion34]

And ultimately it comes down to living where few care about hockey and the players can live their lives, away from the rink, in anonymity. That’s the key.

Its the taxes. That’s the key. There are plenty of of places you can be anonymous.

They don’t get cheap deals.
I agree that it adds to it. But getting players to sign for 9.5 instead of 11 with the same take home is massive

doughty. Kopitar. Karlson etc all signed for 14%. The no state tax players sign for less, anonymous players in high tax markets don’t

 

[PlayersLtd]

You're missing a MASSIVE piece. Guys like Barky and Chucky are paid league minimum salaries and all of their pay in the form of signing bonus. So 90% of their money is in a tax free jurisdiction.

Ok so, even if it was that simple, for a small percentage of players that have their contracts structured that way the tax advantage is something like 9% on average.

The value of the USD against the value of Canadian goods and services easily makes up for this in the majority of US to CDN scenarios.

But again, for the overwhelming majority of players the biggest tax delta one NHL city to the next is 6.4%. Think of all the factors at play when deciding where to live and if 6.4% earnings trumps everything you are a very narrow minded individual.

But honestly, the fact that NYR is one of the most desirable places in the NHL for UFA's is all the proof you need that the tax and cost of living argument carries very little weight for NHL players. For players and agents it's only used when convenient and for the media it's a nice shiny talking point. At the end of the day it is a non issue though.

 

[Fatass]

I don't dispute that the lifestyle component is a massive part of it. In addition to great weather. But I also think giving yourself a 10-15% bonus for doing the same job can't hurt the value proposition and certainly factors into a location-agnostic move among 32 franchises across 2 countries. Tax arbitrage is a consideration.

Taxes are a very small part. These guys are very wealthy. They hire attorneys to take care of their contracts and those attorneys hire accountants. Hockey players are not average Joe’s anymore, and haven’t been for a long time.,

 

[PlayersLtd]

1.) signing bonuses get paid in your local
Jurisdiction. So the stars are all getting taxed
At 37% instead of 55%

2.) nhl agents, players, coaches, GMs and accountants have repeatedly said it is an issue. You don’t get to decide it’s not.

The lowest tax state is 40.20%, the highest is 53.15%, so you're off by 6%. The fact that people don't know jack about this argument is magnified by nobody ever clarifying that Seattle (Wash) is the lowest tax state of all...

 

[danktopshelf]

Ok so, even if it was that simple, for a small percentage of players that have their contracts structured that way the tax advantage is something like 9% on average.

The value of the USD against the value of Canadian goods and services easily makes up for this in the majority of US to CDN scenarios.

But again, for the overwhelming majority of players the biggest tax delta one NHL city to the next is 6.4%. Think of all the factors at play when deciding where to live and if 6.4% earnings trumps everything you are a very narrow minded individual.

But honestly, the fact that NYR is one of the most desirable places in the NHL for UFA's is all the proof you need that the tax and cost of living argument carries very little weight for NHL players. For players and agents it's only used when convenient and for the media it's a nice shiny talking point. At the end of the day it is a non issue though.

So in addition to making less money, in Canada if you lose a playoff series little kids and drunks will chirp you in real life and some bums will throw trash on the yard of your lake cottage. The value proposition is azz for Canada as a whole. Barkov or Tkachuk can play 18 at Seminole or Everglades and not get bothered. They can drive the Lambo or Rari every day of the year. And they can be anonymous and media won't ask any tough questions. Oh, they also keep more of their money.

 

[PhysicalGraffiti]

There is none, this is one of the most asinine discussions on an ongoing basis on these forums.

Make your team more desirable and make players want to come there. Money isn't the only thing. If lack of income tax is the only thing, then every player would be with the Knights, Bolts, Panthers, Kraken, or Predators.

Nothing anyone can do to change that, and the league should not step in. It's not a competitive edge, it's just a fact of life and has been forever. It seems like this is the only sport with fans constantly whining about something totally out of anyone's control.

Your team needs to incentivize why a player should go there to make that up to 15% income tax in the US and higher in Canada not as big of a deal. That's what teams have been doing in pro sports for decades, and same thing with businesses.

 

[Fatass]

Its the taxes. That’s the key. There are plenty of of places you can be anonymous.

They don’t get cheap deals.
I agree that it adds to it. But getting players to sign for 9.5 instead of 11 with the same take home is massive

doughty. Kopitar. Karlson etc all signed for 14%. The no state tax players sign for less, anonymous players in high tax markets don’t

Can you say winning club?
It’s just an excuse for losing teams.

 

[PlayersLtd]

So in addition to making less money, in Canada if you lose a playoff series little kids and drunks will chirp you in real life and some bums will throw trash on the yard of your lake cottage. The value proposition is azz for Canada as a whole. Barkov or Tkachuk can play 18 at Seminole or Everglades and not get bothered. They can drive the Lambo or Rari every day of the year. And they can be anonymous and media won't ask any tough questions. Oh, they also keep more of their money.

That's a different argument.

 

[danktopshelf]

That's a different argument.

It's all the same argument. 9.5 in FL = 11 in Canada. And better lifestyle. So the teams in the tax havens can have better cap structure. Panther's 3rd line is freaking disgusting. Luostar, Lundell, Marchand? It's all interrelated.

 

[Legion34]

Can you say winning club?
It’s just an excuse for losing teams.

I’m not sure what you mean?

 

[Fatass]

So in addition to making less money, in Canada if you lose a playoff series little kids and drunks will chirp you in real life and some bums will throw trash on the yard of your lake cottage. The value proposition is azz for Canada as a whole. Barkov or Tkachuk can play 18 at Seminole or Everglades and not get bothered. They can drive the Lambo or Rari every day of the year. And they can be anonymous and media won't ask any tough questions. Oh, they also keep more of their money.

Win or lose in a southern US market and few will care. The player cashes his cheque and lives the dream life without a care away from the rink. He doesn’t have to take his job home. He’s basically a 20 million dollar plumber

 

[Fatass]

I’m not sure what you mean?

Been drinking, lots. Have no clue what I mean either!

 

[Legion34]

There is none, this is one of the most asinine discussions on an ongoing basis on these forums.

Make your team more desirable and make players want to come there. Money isn't the only thing. If lack of income tax is the only thing, then every player would be with the Knights, Bolts, Panthers, Kraken, or Predators.

Nothing anyone can do to change that, and the league should not step in. It's not a competitive edge, it's just a fact of life and has been forever. It seems like this is the only sport with fans constantly whining about something totally out of anyone's control.

Your team needs to incentivize why a player should go there to make that up to 15% income tax in the US and higher in Canada not as big of a deal. That's what teams have been doing in pro sports for decades, and same thing with businesses.

1. Every player can’t play on no tax teams. Thats impossible

2.) it is a competitive edge and always has been a competitive edge. It was just washed out by teams paying more in pre cap years or adding on fake years (hossa). Once that got outlawed it took off as the only loophole left in town

3.) it is NOT out of anyone’s control. The league artificially made the salary cap and left this loophole. There are plenty of ways to address it.
-ie. 32 teams can split 50% hrr based on taxes. So if the cap was 100 million on average. High tax teams could get 105. And low could get 95.

There is NO other league that has a triple hard cap. Comparing other leagues is silly

 

[Legion34]

Been drinking, lots. Have no clue what I mean either!

Bahahaha I tried a cider after a beer tonight and it turned me right off of drinking so I quit at 10

 

[danktopshelf]

Win or lose in a southern US market and few will care. The player cashes his cheque and lives the dream life without a care away from the rink. He doesn’t have to take his job home. He’s basically a 20 million dollar plumber

A multi-million dollar manual laborer who doesn't have to touch human feces. And is in peak physical shape. Lifestyle wins every time. If you're an extremely rich person from Toronto, you probably have a place in Florida. I can't tell you how many snowbirds we see down here in South Florida. Nobody (relatively) from Florida with means is jonesing for a place in Ontario. Or Buffalo/Pittsburgh/Minnesota etc

 

[PistolPete]

Good lord. Sorry but this has been going on for years. I can’t keep going back and finding all the articles.

1.) Lewis gross (Nylanders agent) firm went on 32 thoughts and said they give their players a spreadsheet and it shows them the taxes and take home salary in. Each jurisdiction

2.) this year Tampa GM literally said he uses tax advantages

3.) radulov said he signed in Dallas vs
Montreal due to tax rate

3.) Marc Méthot said he took home 700k more a year on a 4.9 salary moving from Ottawa to Dallas. Jeff Petrys agent even said there was a difference in Montreal vs Edmonton

4.) low tax market ufas sign for 11-12%
Of the cap vs comparable players in comparable markets (weather/winning) vs high tax which generally are 13.5-14.5

There was an athletic article where an NHL accountant walked through scenarios (Canadian playing in Canada/us, eurpean and American).

This year all of the top free agents signed in state tax free states. Guentzel. Reinhart. Montour. stamkos. Marchy. Skej. Stephenson.

There are tons of examples. If you google for 10 minutes. You will find them.

I remember in Rick Vaive'a autobiography he mentioned after being traded to Chicago from Toronto he went to the accounting office because he thought they made a mistake and gave him too much money. He had no idea just how much he was paying in taxes lol

I think he saved over $5K or something.

 

[Fatass]

A multi-million dollar manual laborer who doesn't have to touch human feces. And is in peak physical shape. Lifestyle wins every time. If you're an extremely rich person from Toronto, you probably have a place in Florida. I can't tell you how many snowbirds we see down here in South Florida. Nobody (relatively) from Florida with means is jonesing for a place in Ontario. Or Buffalo/Pittsburgh/Minnesota etc

True enough. But it’s more than that. Leaving one’s job at the office is healthy, mentally. Hockey players in Canada are always at work. In Florida they leave the rink and no one recognizes them. Thats attractive from a health of spirit pov,
Who in the right mind wants to take their job home? Who wants to always be on guard away from work because people will recognize them and (maybe?) use their phones to video them and upload it to the internet? Everyone wants privacy. Players can earn millions in Florida and no one knows who they are. Imo that’s very attractive.

 

[nbwingsfan]

It’s becoming a big problem that the NHL has to be worried about. The NHL’s smallest TV markets are able to spend in some cases 15%+ more than large market teams.

Take Panthers vs Rangers for example.

Between NY state tax and NY city tax, the rangers roster for the same exact salary takes home about 15% less than floridas roster.

1) will the nhl allow a “tax allowance” to make everyone have the same net effective ceiling?

2) is it politically palatable for states and cities like ny/nyc to exempt athletes from state and city income tax? IMO it’d be deeply popular from constituents to do so.

Yes. Let’s give more tax breaks to the rich. Thats a great idea!

 

[PlayersLtd]

It's all the same argument. 9.5 in FL = 11 in Canada. And better lifestyle. So the teams in the tax havens can have better cap structure. Panther's 3rd line is freaking disgusting. Luostar, Lundell, Marchand? It's all interrelated.

The conversation is about taxes man, the OP said nothing about lifestyle.

Moving the goalposts around to discuss how players don't want to drive with snow tires does nothing for a debate about tax advantages.

 

[danktopshelf]

The guys can probably shop for groceries at Publix or pick up something for their wife/kid at Walgreens and not be bothered. In Florida specifically, Panthers players/hockey players are probably not even among the 100 most famous people in the area. It's much better to be rich than famous.

McDavid would just be a guy here. Many people from Cuba/Colombia/Venezuela etc are unfamiliar with hockey. Even the old school "Florida Crackers" (real term that is official and used with pride, refers to cattle ranchers, mods, please look up the specific term), often have no background with winter sports.

You add in a favorable tax situation, and it's borderline unfair.

 

[danktopshelf]

The conversation is about taxes man, the OP said nothing about lifestyle.

Moving the goalposts around to discuss how players don't want to drive with snow tires does nothing for a debate about tax advantages.

We've established you keep more of your paycheck in the 6 markets without state tax. On top of that, there are other draws that make it even more compelling. But yes, no tax teams have an advantage.