What is the highest trade package you're willing to give up to swap Misa for Schaefer?

[Sharkz4Fun]

Who cares about something as subjective and volatile as "value"? There are maybe 20-25 players in the entire league who actually matter. Schaefer is the only guy in this draft with a chance to be one of them. It's still early but McKenna is probably the only guy in next year's draft with that kind of potential. We obviously need the defenseman far more than the winger.

The entire point of a scorched earth rebuild/tank job is to come out of it with Celebrinis and Schaefers, not Misas and Will Smiths. It's nice to have the latter on your team during their peak years but it's also not impossible to go out and acquire players who can have a similar impact. If Schaefer hits he's going to be an irreplaceable piece.

Good to see this finally be said. Teams like EDM/FLA have a few each, while teams like Toronto/Carolina, despite having regular season success, have none. Guys like Bennett matter far more than Marner, Matthews, and Aho, and even then he might not be in the 25.

However, Schaefer is good, but not that good, and he won't be one of them either. A Hanifin or left handed Ekblad if he reaches his ceiling. Far from a difference maker despite how mid Misa is.

Grier should be fired if he trades up.

 

[matt trick]

If I recall Carlsson (and definitely Smith) of burst into the scene in what was the Bedard/Fantilli/Michkov draft.

I agree Schaefer’s skating is elite, though I’d rate Misas as nearly as good. He was rightly the #1 dman for Canada the WJC but let’s remember he played 22 minutes there. Played the game against Finland+ 2 minutes against Latvia. 4-0 on a team that had two firsts (Helenius/Hemming). Canada had 12 1sts not to mention McKenna, Martone, and Schaefer. We’ll see how his height this week, but 6’1 C and 6’2 dmen are probably about even in terms of above average-ness. I also get a kick out of you saying, ‘don’t need to watch to know height’, yet, Jux recently pointed out your understanding of Desnoyers, Misa, and Frondell’s height was inaccurate.

I’m actually not far off agreeing with you. I do think Schaefer is worth paying a lot to move up for both in terms of talent and dman scarcity (both in our pool, and also in general).

However, this team is going to suck next year, and as much as I want a 1D (which I think Schaefer will be, but it’s not certain), we need a couple more elite players, not just one. Giving up our 25/26 1sts has a very high likelihood of being two elite players. I could be wrong, but it’s too much in my eyes.

Also almost universally disregard everything anyone says about prospects, then you watch a highlight video of a guys skating, grab a measuring tape (or the whisper of someone else’s tape), and you’re all in on a player (the one several of us have been in on for close to a year), and shitting on anyone who disagrees. Lame.

Also that pick being McKenna could put Grier into a precarious position. Not sure he takes that risk even for Schaefer.

We have the choice of perhaps the next premier center group, or a top class 1C-1D-1G with lots of other good assets (though perhaps fewer in the later case). Either can work.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Schaefer's combo of age, size and skating ability is among the best I've ever seen and I value those traits highly because they are largely objective.

Then you have the small but still significant sample of him dominating the OHL at such a young age and even more impressively being used as Team Canada's all situations #1 at a tournament that regularly chews up and spits out much older draft eligibles.

It's also just a question of who the hell is going to play on this team's top pair for the next decade if not Schaefer? I don't want to put all our eggs in the Dickinson basket and Dupont is the only upcoming prospect who might be a better bet than Schaefer. That doesn't make Schaefer a guaranteed Norris winner but he's a shot we have to take by almost any means necessary IMO.

I get the need argument. Schaefer is obviously a much bigger need than Misa and I do think he’s clearly the better prospect because of the small chance that he’s a Norris-caliber guy, so I do prefer him and would give up something non-premium to get him instead of Misa. But taking that out of the picture, what makes Schaefer a can’t-miss prospect and not Misa?

I know, you value WJC selection more than most people. But Beckett Sennecke didn’t get selected to that team and you’ve been on record stating that you like him for Anaheim more than Demidov. So why does Misa get criticized for not making the WJC team when the selection process was clearly botched?

Again, I think Misa is a small step below Schaefer because I do think that Schaefer has a small chance at being top-5 at his position and I don’t think there’s any chance Misa is a top-5 center in the NHL. But that’s the only differentiating factor for me. If they both hit their floors, Misa will be more impactful simply because centers are more impactful than non-elite D. So if Grier is so absolutely confident that Schaefer is a top-5 defenseman in the NHL in a couple years that he’s giving up our unprotected 2026 1st to get him? Okay, then I’ll assume they’ve done their due diligence and truly believe this kid is it. I really like his character and think he’d be a fantastic match to Celebrini in the room. I really get the Schaefer love.

But in the far more likely scenario where Schaefer is ‘just’ a solid top-pairing D or a low-end #1D like Shea Theodore, then I think it’s a toss-up between him and Misa for who has the most impact on the game.

To sum it up:
Upside - Schaefer
Median outcome - equal
Floor - equal but center is more impactful

I’m not comfortable risking another top-5 pick on the odds that Schaefer absolutely hits his max ceiling. And if you’re comfortable with doing that despite never watching him for a full game? I’d question your logic. Because there’s simply no way you can be sure he hits his ceiling.

 

[slocal]

This is not a fight you can win, mate.

Brilliant

 

[sampler]

I said I would trade the unprotected 2026 1st and the #2 for Schaefer and I stand by it.

Celebrini, Schaefer and Askarov is a dream core to build around. I don't care about forgoing a small chance at a winger like McKenna to secure that.

Once you have that foundation in place it becomes relatively easy to trade for or buy the rest of the team.

That seems nuts. You would do a Misa+Voerhoff for Schaefer deal?

Even if you have a small chance of getting mckenna, its not like if you lose the lottery you get nothing. Your consolation price includes 2 excellent RHD a very good C (Lin, Voerhoff, Roobroeck), or another top prospect.

Trading a likely top 5 pick AND #2 to move up to #1 for a guy with some question marks is nuts.

 

[themelkman]

Are the Isles paying this Hodge kid to play hype beast or what?

I wish you were, he’s a home grown hater

 

[Thrasymachus]

Oof...to be young and optimistic. I'm just glad they're finally out of Nassau. I have good memories there, but it had become a string of expletives.

The Isles needed something good to happen to them. I just hope this spot of luck doesn't deter management from doing a full tear-down and re-build, which is called for at this point. If Schaefer were a McDavid level prospect, to hell with a re-build, but he's not. I don't wanna see the Islanders remain stuck on the treadmill.

I think Darche will start the year with a "retool" mentality but I am hoping by end of the season, barring amazing performances from several question marks in our roster, that yes, Darche will blow it up and commit to a full rebuild. Not dramatically, but enough to accrue value from guys nearing or past their thirties.

We really could use more talented pieces. What San Jose is building is quite impressive. I would like very much that it is the Islanders facing yall in the SCF's when your core inevitably gets there

 

[sampler]

You're going to cry that we missed out on Michael Misa and a 10% shot at McKenna if we have Celebrini, Schaefer, Askarov, Dickinson and Smith to build around? The point is to win the Cup, not make as many draft picks as possible.

I respect the need for another high end D prospect to complete the rebuild. I am in total agreement, but I'm not in a super rush that I would sacrifice next years top pick. . The sharks could also definitely use another high end forward too. And the '26 pick can land the top D. You can also trade for top D.

Look at the great sharks teams of the last two decades. They drafted Pickles, ehrhoff, and a few others, but the real top D were Boyle, Burns, Karlsson, Blake, Martin, Dillon, etc... All traded for or UFA signed.

I would LOVE to get schaefer, but I wouldnt give up a top 5 '26 pick along with Misa for him. Franky, I think its very possible that we get him at #2 anyways. If not, we can target a top RHD with the top '26 pick and some reasonable ones like Fiddler this year to stack the pool with some size.

I'm pretty sure a core of Celebrini, Misa, Smith, Eklund, Dickinson, Voerhoff, and Askarov is also pretty good.

All that said, I agree that Schaefer >>> Misa. I would be willing to trade the dallas 1st to swap with the isles, but not any more really. And not fully because I dont think its worth it, but because I think 1st round picks, solid prospects like cherny, and other similar assets are specituaclar trade fodder. If we lose out on stacking the deck with solid prospects (even if not game changers), we miss out on having the pieces to acquire solid top NHL dmen.

 

[weastern bias]

Who cares about something as subjective and volatile as "value"? There are maybe 20-25 players in the entire league who actually matter. Schaefer is the only guy in this draft with a chance to be one of them.

This might be the most absurd thing you've ever said on this board

Every single draft has difference makers who emerge beyond the top-5 picks, it's so hyperbolic to broadly declare that any one player is "only guy in this draft with a chance to be [a difference maker]" that is not worth even attempting to intellectualize

Every single one of these guys are still just magic beans, Schaefer could be Cale Makar or he could be Jake Gardiner, Misa could be John Tavares or he could be Shane Wright, we're so talent deficient at every single position that the swings between these disparate possible outcomes is not worth attaching an additional guaranteed top-5 pick just to draft for positional need

Accumulate talent/assets, make your trades later when you have an idea of what you're working with

This team doesn't have a "core", it has one player that matters for certain, everything else is still floating in the air

 

[sampler]

I would add one last thing:

Hockey games are 60 minutes long, and frankly, no minute is more or less important, generally (sure a PP stud or a shut down guy for protecting a lead in the last 2 minutes can be big, but generally every minute matters similarly).

People talk about the need for a 1C. However, a 1C plays approx 20 mins/game or just 1/3 of the game. That makes your 2C pretty much equally valuable if they too play 20 mins. Your 3C similarly valuable if they play 20ish mins. If you have a #1a, 1b, 1c level talent, you will have a legit #1C on the ice for virtually the entire game (Your fourth line C can work PK and pick up a few EV minutes, especially in garbage time when leading/trailing alot.)

I kinda think of this akin to the Thornton, Marleau, Couture, Pavelski 1-2-3-4 at center for the sharks 20 yr dynasty. One or two can move to W, but the sharks had at least one of those four guys on the ice for nearly the entire game. Celebrini-Misa-Smith would be pretty similarly amazing if they pan out as projected.

We have Dick, who is a nearly surefire top 4 D. We can get another likely top 4D in the '26 draft. Add in a few more depth D prospects, and we should be all set, with ajust a few strategic trades and UFA signings.

All in all, Schaefer would be better than Misa, but I am AOK watching Celebrini-Misa-Smith on the ice at all times. And, if we can get a few more solid D prospects with the assets that we DONT trade to move up, Id be just fine. Add in all the complementary wings in Eklund, cherny, musty, graf, and co and we are cookin'.

 

[matt trick]

We really only need one more quality young D, if, as I assume, Dickinson and Muk hit. It’d like that to be a top tier guy.

Though they don’t have the center talent to win it all, Heiskanen, Harley, Lindell have been Dallas’s standby the last three years. That’s probably close to the standard. Tanev and Ceci in the four spot the last two years. bischel or a Deadline trade is likely the 4 guy next year. If your 4/5s are a rotating cast of Ferraros and Cecis that’s probably okay with the right ‘big 3’ and centers. Going into a good three year window with some cap space and you pay big in terms of assets to trade for a guy like Cernak.

 

[Wedontneedroads]

I would give up the entire 25’ draft for him.

Look at who the Sharks have drafted with anything pick 30 or higher over the past 15 years.

Only slight hesitation is that Grier’s overhaul of the scouting department deserves a chance to show their chops. They seem to be decent at talent evaluation in the 20-40 range. Still not enough to make me pass on Schaefer. Sharks need quality not quantity.

 

[dmcccdmn]

Islanders board is filled with "it would take Misa + Dickinson for Schaefer" for a trade to happen.

When was the last time a highly valuable player was traded for a "king's ransom" so to speak where the return is obviously higher value? Usually I see the returns are less than what HF board would expect or in some cases considered fair. But I don't usually see the returns to be outrageously high.

If a deal does go through, I think Islanders would be more interested in a player than a draft pick. If Zetterlund is still here I would think 2OA + Zetterlund would be a palatable offer. Too bad Zetterlund was traded for less than what you would expect.

 

[Yummyshark]

If you’re going to already give up 30 and 33 then it really is not much additional value to give up the remaining picks.

Now no team would accept an “entire draft” trade package because they would not want to make 14 picks. That is too many to manage the impending ELC’s.

I've argued against many people here in the other thread that trading the entire 2025 draft could very well be worth it. If you think 30 + 33 is a fair price to pay, then trading the rest of those picks (3rds, 4ths, 7ths) should not make you think it's not worth it. If you don't like Schaefer that much then fine, but if you do, and think a core of Celebrini, Smith, Eklund, Schaefer, Dickinson, and Askarov would be a cup contending core hitting every position, then those other picks simply shouldn't move the needle.

Now no way would I trade a first from next year. Premium picks are where you get your core players. 3rd and beyond almost always amount to replacement NHLer at best, and in the most likely case by far, career AHLers. Like would you trade out our entire 2022 draft class (with Bysteldt and Lund the only two guys who are likely to become NHLers at all, and replacement level bottom 6 guys) for Schaefer? That's actually a bit more than the package we'd be sending off to NY. I like Schaefer a lot so I would, but either way I don't think that's a massive unthinkable price to move on to Schaefer.

Also if you get a ton of picks and don't want to make them all, simply trade them to other teams for future picks, and now you are stocked this year and well into the future. Teams will always gladly accept picks.

 

[LinkGaetz23]

Islanders board is filled with "it would take Misa + Dickinson for Schaefer" for a trade to happen.

When was the last time a highly valuable player was traded for a "king's ransom" so to speak where the return is obviously higher value? Usually I see the returns are less than what HF board would expect or in some cases considered fair. But I don't usually see the returns to be outrageously high.

If a deal does go through, I think Islanders would be more interested in a player than a draft pick. If Zetterlund is still here I would think 2OA + Zetterlund would be a palatable offer. Too bad Zetterlund was traded for less than what you would expect.

Lindros is always the one that comes to mind, but it was well post-draft not pre and of course it won the team getting the king's ransom won the cup on the basis of it.

Edit: Sorry, 2 cups.

 

[YUPPY]

Sharks should make a deal with the Penguins and take back EK65’s huge contract for the last two years ($11.5M/year). In return, we send them that Dallas pick and get their #12 overall (the one from the Rangers), and use that to draft 6'5 Radim Mrtka. Pittsburgh might end up with back-to-back picks this year—#11 and #12*—depending on the condition with the Rangers for this year or next. Since this year’s draft isn’t deep, the Rangers might send that pick to the Pens now.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Sharks should make a deal with the Penguins and take back EK65’s huge contract for the last two years ($11.5M/year). In return, we send them that Dallas pick and get their #12 overall (the one from the Rangers), and use that to draft 6'5 Radim Mrtka. Pittsburgh might end up with back-to-back picks this year—#11 and #12*—depending on the condition with the Rangers for this year or next. Since this year’s draft isn’t deep, the Rangers might send that pick to the Pens now.

Karlsson won't want to come to San Jose.

 

[Shark in Hockeytown]

I wouldn't go higher than the lower of the two 2nd round picks. Yes, Schaefer could be great and give us two high end dmen. But Misa as a 2nd line center is likely to be great for that position, and having the centers of your top two lines be in the top five of the league is a huge advantage. Don't think about Misa as a 1st line center; think of him as a 2nd line center.

Still, if the Islanders pass on Schaefer, I will be ecstatic. I just wouldn't pay much for that given the alternative.

 

[YUPPY]

Karlsson won't want to come to San Jose.

You're right, he does have a NMC. I forgot about that. Damn you, Doug Wilson!

 

[sampler]

I've argued against many people here in the other thread that trading the entire 2025 draft could very well be worth it. If you think 30 + 33 is a fair price to pay, then trading the rest of those picks (3rds, 4ths, 7ths) should not make you think it's not worth it. If you don't like Schaefer that much then fine, but if you do, and think a core of Celebrini, Smith, Eklund, Schaefer, Dickinson, and Askarov would be a cup contending core hitting every position, then those other picks simply shouldn't move the needle.

Now no way would I trade a first from next year. Premium picks are where you get your core players. 3rd and beyond almost always amount to replacement NHLer at best, and in the most likely case by far, career AHLers. Like would you trade out our entire 2022 draft class (with Bysteldt and Lund the only two guys who are likely to become NHLers at all, and replacement level bottom 6 guys) for Schaefer? That's actually a bit more than the package we'd be sending off to NY. I like Schaefer a lot so I would, but either way I don't think that's a massive unthinkable price to move on to Schaefer.

Also if you get a ton of picks and don't want to make them all, simply trade them to other teams for future picks, and now you are stocked this year and well into the future. Teams will always gladly accept picks.

I would trade the whole '22 draft class for schaefer in a heartbeat. However, that's not parallel to today because we didnt have 2nd overall too. We only had #11 and a bunch of 3-7th rounders.

I would very very happily trade 30,33,53, and the rest of the draft for schaefer (not including #2), but no chance NYI would do that. But, I would not make that deal just to move up one spot.

Since 2011, Ekblad is Florida's only top 15 drafted D (despite picking in the top 15 seven times). Since forever, Edmonton has just Nurse and Bouchard in the top 10 (well broberg too, but hes gone now) and all the top picks were Fs. In other words, both the SCF teams did not build their D through several lottery picks. they had one anchor (Ekblad/Bouchard) and maybe a complementary piece (like nurse), but focused almost eclusively on high end forwards. Dick very much looks to be the sharks anchor. Arguably the best D in the entire CHL and just 18 years old. If the sharks can find the right complementary D pieces in trade, UFA, and later picks, then we should be all set. Obviously Voerhoff would be a fun add next year or if grier can steal Mrtka, Aitcheson, or Smith this year, that would be fun too. But, either way, grier needs to keep adding, and building up more and more prospect and pick capital to eventually cash in for established NHL D.

 

[sampler]

I wouldn't go higher than the lower of the two 2nd round picks. Yes, Schaefer could be great and give us two high end dmen. But Misa as a 2nd line center is likely to be great for that position, and having the centers of your top two lines be in the top five of the league is a huge advantage. Don't think about Misa as a 1st line center; think of him as a 2nd line center.

Still, if the Islanders pass on Schaefer, I will be ecstatic. I just wouldn't pay much for that given the alternative.

yep, exactly.

And, to be honest, Misa is not just a 2C. Celebrini, Misa, and Smith may all end up solid 1Cs putting up point per game plus in time. I envision a team with three first lines, all of which have skilled wings with some size, and all of which can score at will.

Ek is on a trajectory to be an 80 pt player. I expect at least a couple of musty, cherny, lund, graf, and haltunnen to become very good top 6 NHL wings. Signing a few more by UFA should not be very challenging, especially when the time comes to compete. We could end up with with three major scoring lines, bascially ensuring that the sharks can score on you at all times throughout the game.

Ovviously, they need to add a ton to the D, but Im fine with trades and UFA to ensure established vets in that key position. The draft capital the sharks have today (and will add at the deadline) allows alot of wiggle room for trades next summer after we know better what we have with all the kids going pro (first full year of musty, cherny, lund, dick, Halts and just 2nd full pro year of cagnoni, smith, celebrini, Graf...). For now, draft for need and add as many quality guys as you can. Then, in a year, after you see what you got, get active in trade.

 

[Yummyshark]

I would trade the whole '22 draft class for schaefer in a heartbeat. However, that's not parallel to today because we didnt have 2nd overall too. We only had #11 and a bunch of 3-7th rounders.

I would very very happily trade 30,33,53, and the rest of the draft for schaefer (not including #2), but no chance NYI would do that. But, I would not make that deal just to move up one spot.

Since 2011, Ekblad is Florida's only top 15 drafted D (despite picking in the top 15 seven times). Since forever, Edmonton has just Nurse and Bouchard in the top 10 (well broberg too, but hes gone now) and all the top picks were Fs. In other words, both the SCF teams did not build their D through several lottery picks. they had one anchor (Ekblad/Bouchard) and maybe a complementary piece (like nurse), but focused almost eclusively on high end forwards. Dick very much looks to be the sharks anchor. Arguably the best D in the entire CHL and just 18 years old. If the sharks can find the right complementary D pieces in trade, UFA, and later picks, then we should be all set. Obviously Voerhoff would be a fun add next year or if grier can steal Mrtka, Aitcheson, or Smith this year, that would be fun too. But, either way, grier needs to keep adding, and building up more and more prospect and pick capital to eventually cash in for established NHL D.

I mean obviously it would be #2 (Misa or Martone, people need to realize Martone is very much possible), and the rough equivalent of Bysteld + Lund (the only two NHLers from 2022 as a proxy for what trading the 2025 draft class might look like). Like okay if you think Misa is it, then you wouldn't trade that fine, but I don't think the cost is so extreme that someone who likes Schaefer a lot more shouldn't dare to pay it.

Panthers spent a 1OA on Ekblad and they traded 2 firsts (in a goalie and a pick) to pick up Jones. Oilers spent a 7th and 10th on dmen, and traded a 1st for another (Ekholm), and traded another 1st for another (Walman). Like even imbalanced Toronto spent a 5th on Rielly and traded another first for McCabe, so just getting one good dman isn't enough, assuming Dickinson actually hits, and even decent dmen are expensive, as we learned when we got a 1st for Walman. Getting two elite dmen means we don't have to worry, can always think of BPA in future drafts, and don't need to start thinking about what dman we could get for Eklund or Smith.

Bottom line is, if you like Schaefer more than Misa, for his projections and also because he completes the Sharks core at every important position, rather than leaving us with a big hole in 1D, then ask yourself if you'd be willing to trade Misa/Martone and Bysteld and Lund (as a proxy for the expected value of the 2025 picks) for him. To me I think that price is worth it. Obviously if you like Misa a lot and think having 4 forwards instead of 3 is better, but having to scramble for defense in the future is the better play, then you wouldn't.

 

[Roasted Nuts]

Schaefer to the islanders is guaranteed at this point

 

[TheBeard]

I think it's time we just move on and acknowledge we're picking at 2. And that's fine.

 

[Roasted Nuts]

Looks like he has settled down on the island already