What if Toronto didn’t trade their 1st for Kurvers

[carjackmalone]

Quebec would still of drafted Lindros followed by Toronto Drafting Scott Neidermeyer.Lindros holding out refusing to sign with Quebec would still be happening,but now Toronto has Neidermeyer as dangle bait along with a package of players and Picks 1sts obviously.

Which players on Torontos roster would of been worthy of a competitive trade compared to philadelphias’s eventual trade for lindros

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[VanIslander]

6th overall to Philly went the guy Sundstrom, Hedberg and many in O-vik raved about years before: Petr Forsberg.

The steal of that draft.

 

[reckoning]

Toronto had nothing of value on their roster or in their system that could've come close to matching what the Flyers or Rangers were offering Quebec for Lindros.

 

[frontsfan2005]

I'm not so sure the Nordiques would have had the option to select Lindros if the Leafs had their 1991 first round pick.

On November 20, 1990:
Quebec - 25 GP, 3-18-4, 10 pts
Toronto - 26 GP, 4-21-1, 9 pts

As the Leafs didn't have a first round draft pick, they picked up veteran players in a deal with Quebec.

November 17, 1990
To Quebec - Scott Pearson, 2nd round pick in 1991, 2nd round pick in 1992
To Toronto - Michel Petit, Lucien DeBlois, Aaron Broten

Quebec was in full tank mode at this point and knew Toronto didn't have their pick, and wanted to strengthen the Leafs so the Devils wouldn't end up picking first overall and take Lindros. They acquired a young Scott Pearson and picks for a trio of serviceable NHL players.

After November 20, 1990:
Toronto - 54 GP, 19-25-10, 48 pts
Quebec - 55 GP, 13-32-10, 36 pts

For Toronto:
Petit - 54 GP, 9 G, 19 A, 28 PTS
DeBlois - 38 GP, 10 G, 12 A, 22 PTS
Broten - 27 GP, 6 G, 4 A, 10 PTS

The Leafs also picked up other veteran players like Dave Ellett, Mike Krushelnyski, Mike Foligno, Peter Zezel, Bob Rouse that they likely don't go for if they own their first rounder in the Lindros sweepstakes.

 

[FerrisRox]

Quebec would still of drafted Lindros followed by Toronto Drafting Scott Neidermeyer.

That's highly debatable. If the Maple Leafs still have their first rounder, they are very much in the mix to draft Lindros themselves and they don't make any of the transactions they did that season, particularly one that helped strip the Nordique roster to help them bottom out.

 

[MadLuke]

Outside money and draft pick, which if we assume Leaf can match

Hextall
Huffman
Forsberg
Duchene
Ricci
Simon

Fuhr or Potvin (Maybe Fuhr match more Ron Hextall)

we know the nordiques liked Clark or maybe it was all Pierre Lacroix, that was just named that summer ?
In 1992 Clark was what 24-25 years old, 1st overall that could find his way if health ever come, that would have been a nice piece, does he get close to Ricci level ?

Not sure if Ellet or anyone can match Duchesne here,

if they have Niedermayer that could match maybe Forsberg before he exploded very well.

Huffman-Simon should be able to be something you can match, Perreault was scoring in the AHL maybe he could have in the package (maybe a bit of hindsight that he would end up with that good of a career for a third round pick)

 

[reckoning]

I'm not so sure the Nordiques would have had the option to select Lindros if the Leafs had their 1991 first round pick.

On November 20, 1990:
Quebec - 25 GP, 3-18-4, 10 pts
Toronto - 26 GP, 4-21-1, 9 pts

As the Leafs didn't have a first round draft pick, they picked up veteran players in a deal with Quebec.

November 17, 1990
To Quebec - Scott Pearson, 2nd round pick in 1991, 2nd round pick in 1992
To Toronto - Michel Petit, Lucien DeBlois, Aaron Broten

Quebec was in full tank mode at this point and knew Toronto didn't have their pick, and wanted to strengthen the Leafs so the Devils wouldn't end up picking first overall and take Lindros. They acquired a young Scott Pearson and picks for a trio of serviceable NHL players.

After November 20, 1990:
Toronto - 54 GP, 19-25-10, 48 pts
Quebec - 55 GP, 13-32-10, 36 pts

For Toronto:
Petit - 54 GP, 9 G, 19 A, 28 PTS
DeBlois - 38 GP, 10 G, 12 A, 22 PTS
Broten - 27 GP, 6 G, 4 A, 10 PTS

The Leafs also picked up other veteran players like Dave Ellett, Mike Krushelnyski, Mike Foligno, Peter Zezel, Bob Rouse that they likely don't go for if they own their first rounder in the Lindros sweepstakes.

I think people tend to overestimate that trade. I don't see Petit, Deblois or Broten having much more value than a replacement player, especially Broten. As for the other players they picked up, they had to trade guys like Olcyzk and Iafrate to get them, so I don't think there was much of a net improvement talent wise for that season.

I think the biggest factor in the Leafs improving was the coaching change. It took Tom Watt awhile to get them playing somewhat responsible defensively.

 

[seventieslord]

I think people tend to overestimate that trade. I don't see Petit, Deblois or Broten having much more value than a replacement player, especially Broten. As for the other players they picked up, they had to trade guys like Olcyzk and Iafrate to get them, so I don't think there was much of a net improvement talent wise for that season.

I think the biggest factor in the Leafs improving was the coaching change. It took Tom Watt awhile to get them playing somewhat responsible defensively.

They were all capable. All you have to do is look at who would be dropped from the bottom of the Leafs' lineup in order to fit those three in. They absolutely helped.

In a vacuum maybe it's not enough to tip the scales, but when you're getting them from the team that you're trying to stay ahead of, and not giving them any roster players back... Hell yeah it tips the scales.

 

[FerrisRox]

I think people tend to overestimate that trade. I don't see Petit, Deblois or Broten having much more value than a replacement player, especially Broten.

I absolutely disagree.

Michel Petit was not only dramatically better than a replacement player, he was one of the top defenseman they had. Only Dave Ellett and Rob Ramage would be clearly ahead of him.

Lucien Deblois, who put up 22 points, and ten goals, after the trade was without a doubt a big improvement on the next in line winger on the farm.

Down in Newmarket, Greg Johnston led the way. He was 25 and had already fizzled out as an NHLer. Gilles Thibideau was the second leading scorer and spent time in Toronto. The third and fourth leading scorers were Ken Hulst and Mike Millar.

Adding Deblois and Broten gave them NHL calibre players which they literally would not have had otherwise. It probably would have been Greg Johnston and Doug Shedden if that trade wasn't made.

 

[frontsfan2005]

I think people tend to overestimate that trade. I don't see Petit, Deblois or Broten having much more value than a replacement player, especially Broten. As for the other players they picked up, they had to trade guys like Olcyzk and Iafrate to get them, so I don't think there was much of a net improvement talent wise for that season.

I think the biggest factor in the Leafs improving was the coaching change. It took Tom Watt awhile to get them playing somewhat responsible defensively.

Petit was a solid top-4 defenseman who provided excelelnt depth on the Leafs disaster of a blue line. His acquisition, as well as Dave Ellett and Bob Rouse, as well as Iafrate and his locker room distractions leaving, were big reasons why the Leafs began to turn it around.

In Petit's first game with Toronto, he stepped in for Brad Marsh. That's a massive improvement right there. His presence allowed the Leafs to deal Kurvers, who essentially became a healthy scratch after the Petit acquisition, and with Ellett, gave the Leafs the freedom to deal Iafrate for two very good NHL players who fit in much better with the team in Peter Zezel and Bob Rouse.

Petit would leave Toronto as part of the massive Doug Gilmour trade with Calgary, in the process Toronto acquired Jamie Macoun as his replacement, an excellent defender who was underrated and a major reason why the Leafs turned it around in the 92-93 season.

As for DeBlois and Broten, they were depth pieces. DeBlois had a solid season, although missed time with injuries. At the beginning of his Leafs tenure, he was getting ice time with the top guys like Damphousse, Clark and Krushelnyski. Eventually, he would end up on a line with his ex-Nordiques linemate Aaron Broten. These guys were solid NHL veterans in 1990 and replaced AHL calibre players like Gilles Thibaudeau, Doug Shedden and Greg Johnson. They didn't turn the Leafs into contenders or anything, but provided them with solid NHL experience on a very young team that was doing anything they could to not finish in last place.

Broten played out the 90-91 with Toronto before signing with the Jets midway through the 91-92 season for his last NHL action. DeBlois would be traded by Toronto at the 1992 NHL trade deadline for Mark Osborne, a solid depth piece for the Leafs in their runs in 1993 and 1994.

In a perfect world for Toronto, they would have liked to have finished in fourth in the Norris, therefore, making the Devils pick seventh. New Jersey likely goes with Richard Matvichuk if they are indeed looking for a defenseman. He had a very good NHL career, but looking back, a trade of Kurvers for Matvichuk really wouldn't be discussed in depth.

For Quebec, it worked out perfectly, they got Lindros and while he didn't play for the team, they were able to trade him away and win two Cups using those assets. The Nordiques had no reason to have DeBlois, Petit and Broten helping them win games. Pearson turned into a bust, although he was fairly good in his first year in Quebec and the picks turned into nothing.

For New Jersey, I think they were extremely happy with the consolation prize. They essentially traded away Tom Kurvers for Scott Niedermayer.

 

[Jets4Life]

The Leafs also picked up other veteran players like Dave Ellett, Mike Krushelnyski, Mike Foligno, Peter Zezel, Bob Rouse that they likely don't go for if they own their first rounder in the Lindros sweepstakes.

Acquiring Ellett had nothing to do with trying to avoid finishing last. Ellett was acquired with Paul Fenton on November 10, from the Jets for Ed Olczyk and Mark Osborne. Both the Jets and Leafs were off to poor starts, after having good 1989-90 season.

It was all about shaking their teams up, and nothing about the Lindros sweepstakes. otherwise Toronto would ahve never parted with Olczyk, who led the leads in scoring. in 1988-89, and at the time of the trade.

 

[Jets4Life]

Petit was a solid top-4 defenseman who provided excelelnt depth on the Leafs disaster of a blue line. His acquisition, as well as Dave Ellett and Bob Rouse, as well as Iafrate and his locker room distractions leaving, were big reasons why the Leafs began to turn it around.

The Leafs never turned anything around. They finished 23-46-11, worst in their Conference.

 

[seventieslord]

The Leafs never turned anything around. They finished 23-46-11, worst in their Conference.

Considering they were trending to finish with 28 points and last overall and having the shame of trading away the Lindros pick, yes. The trade clearly turned that around, as low a bar to clear as that may be. They were 6 games under 500 the rest of the way, playing at a 71 point pace, which would have been good for 16th overall and a playoff spot.. again, as low a bar to clear as that may be.

 

[frontsfan2005]

Acquiring Ellett had nothing to do with trying to avoid finishing last. Ellett was acquired with Paul Fenton on November 10, from the Jets for Ed Olczyk and Mark Osborne. Both the Jets and Leafs were off to poor starts, after having good 1989-90 season.

It was all about shaking their teams up, and nothing about the Lindros sweepstakes. otherwise Toronto would ahve never parted with Olczyk, who led the leads in scoring. in 1988-89, and at the time of the trade.

Following games on Nov. 10/90 -
Winnipeg - 17 GP, 7-9-1, 15 pts, 55 GF, 55 GA
Toronto - 19 GP, 2-16-1, 5 pts, 49 GF, 94 GA

Toronto was on pace for a 8-67-5 record - which would tie the 74-75 Capitals for the worst record in NHL history.

The Leafs acquiring any type of good, veteran NHL players at this time had everything to do to avoid the embarrassment of finishing in last and losing Lindros to the Devils for Tom Kurvers. The Leafs had the worst goals against in the league, 20 higher than the next worst team. If they own the Lindros pick, do you really think they make any type of deal for a very good player in Dave Ellett? Do you think they would trade prospects/picks for a package for veteran NHL players a week later with the team they would be tanking against?

Also, the Jets were at 15 points, nine ahead of the last place Oilers. Of course, the thinking in November 1990 would be for the Oilers to turn it around. Winnipeg was trying to catch and stay ahead of Vancouver (9-8-0 on Nov. 10). After losing Hawerchuk and acquiring Housley, moving out Ellett for Olczyk made sense from the Jets point of view.

The Leafs never turned anything around. They finished 23-46-11, worst in their Conference.

The Leafs did turn it around enough to avoid losing the Lindros pick for Tom Kurvers. They actually outplayed the Jets following the Ellett trade:

Toronto - 61 GP, 21-30-10, 52 pts, 192 GF, 224 GA
Winnipeg - 63 GP, 19-34-10, 48 pts, 205 GF, 233 GA

Also, before the Nordiques trade on November 17, 1990: (note - Toronto was 2-1-0 at the time following the Jets trade, including defeating WPG 5-2 in the first game following the deal)

Quebec - 22 GP, 3-16-3, 9 pts, 53 GF, 95 GA
Toronto - 22 GP, 4-17-1, 9 pts, 63 GF, 107 GA

Following the trade:
Toronto - 58 GP, 19-29-10, 48 pts, 177 GF, 205 GA
Quebec - 58 GP, 13-34-11, 37 pts, 183 GF, 259 GA

 

[MadLuke]

If it is worth anything, Michel Bergeron once said on TV, that the Leafs were menacing them with finishing last and that the trade was to make sure the Nordiques would.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i don’t remember much about tom kurvers except i used to mix him up with doug lidster when both were on the canucks. i’m imagining him as a ty barrie or maybe keith yandle?

but i am always wary of a guy with talent that teams always make expendable. three highly regarded young D on the habs in the mid-80s: chelios was the clear star, svoboda stuck around through the second finals run, kurvers was traded to buffalo in 87 for draft capital. team had too many D (robinson still there, chelios a budding superstar, green and ludwig are the glue, svoboda was the raw guy with a high ceiling, and lalor and gingras’ emergence when kurvers was injured for the 86 cup run meant his services were no longer required).

then when he catches on with nj he adds a new dimension running their PP in the 1988 run and follows that up with a spectacular 89 season. but this is where you see lou lam earning his hall of fame ring: you take this guy who is coming off 15 playoff run and 66 pt regular season and cash him in for a first rounder because you’re replacing him with slava fetisov. two hall of famers.

the other thing about kurvers is his value was all over the place. he was traded for a second, then a year later a third, then two years later the first rounder this thread is about. a year and a half later he’s moved again for brian bradley, a smallish bad team scorer who himself was about to be upgraded on by cliff ronning, and he puts up 27 pts in the remaining 32 games, and added 4 in the playoffs (6 game loss to LA) before getting traded again in the offseason in a three way for babych and ludwig.

kurvers never didn’t score though. over three seasons in new york before going to anaheim to close out his career, he still averaged 56 pts per 80.

 

[Hasbro]

If it is worth anything, Michel Bergeron once said on TV, that the Leafs were menacing them with finishing last and that the trade was to make sure the Nordiques would.

Well spent... for Colorado.

 

[MadLuke]

Well spent... for Colorado.

We lost right away in the playoff 2 time before leaving (including versus Montreal which is always cherished memories), after missing 5 years in a row, it had good value even for the Québec fans.

 

[frontsfan2005]

What is interesting is the Leafs made the trade for the American-born Kurvers on October 16th, yet he didn't report for three days. Apparently he wanted nothing to do with playing for the Leafs or in Canada and did not want to move. He finally did report and had a great season, helping the Leafs finish at .500 for the first time since the 70's.

Source: 1981 NHL Entry Draft -- Tom Kurvers

Interestingly enough and off-topic, but at the exact same time, the Oilers American-born star and prize of the Gretzky trade, Jimmy Carson demanded a trade on October 14th, 1989 - he did sit out and was eventually sent to the Wings in November.

Source: Edmonton Oilers history: Jimmy Carson sits out, demands trade, Oct. 14, 1989

 

[Jets4Life]

The Leafs acquiring any type of good, veteran NHL players at this time had everything to do to avoid the embarrassment of finishing in last and losing Lindros to the Devils for Tom Kurvers. The Leafs had the worst goals against in the league, 20 higher than the next worst team. If they own the Lindros pick, do you really think they make any type of deal for a very good player in Dave Ellett? Do you think they would trade prospects/picks for a package for veteran NHL players a week later with the team they would be tanking against?

The Leafs would never have parted with Ed Olczyk and Mark Osborne (both 70+ point players in 1989-90), if they were desperate to finish ahead of Quebec. It was November, and less than 20 games into the season. If the Leafs truly were that desperate to finish ahead of Quebec in mid-November 1990, they would have given the Jets high ranked draft picks, or prospects, not Olczyk and Osborne.

The Leafs most likely did not have the idea of finishing behind Quebec in last place until two months later. At the time of this trade, Quebec was 3-12-3, and in the middle of a 14 game losing streak.

Finally, finishing last in the Conference, with a 23-46-11 records, is not considered "turning things around." There have been too many examples of teams getting off to poor starts in the first 15-20 games of the season, only to make the playoffs, and even win the Stanley Cup (i.e. St.Louis 2018-19), to state that the Leafs "turned things round."

They failed to do so, and never came close to finishing in playoff contention.

 

[frontsfan2005]

The Leafs would never have parted with Ed Olczyk and Mark Osborne (both 70+ point players in 1989-90), if they were desperate to finish ahead of Quebec. It was November, and less than 20 games into the season. If the Leafs truly were that desperate to finish ahead of Quebec in mid-November 1990, they would have given the Jets high ranked draft picks, or prospects, not Olczyk and Osborne.

The Leafs most likely did not have the idea of finishing behind Quebec in last place until two months later. At the time of this trade, Quebec was 3-12-3, and in the middle of a 14 game losing streak.

Finally, finishing last in the Conference, with a 23-46-11 records, is not considered "turning things around." There have been too many examples of teams getting off to poor starts in the first 15-20 games of the season, only to make the playoffs, and even win the Stanley Cup (i.e. St.Louis 2018-19), to state that the Leafs "turned things round."

They failed to do so, and never came close to finishing in playoff contention.

They were desperate to finish ahead of Quebec - don't you think it would be embarrassing for the franchise to see New Jersey select Eric Lindros using their pick that they used on Tom Kurvers. Basically, not finishing in last was almost as good as winning the Cup for the Leafs in 1990-91 following their dreadful 2-15-1 start. Remember, in 1991, there was no lottery, if you finished in last, you picked first. The Leafs won in the sense that it wasn't their pick that turned into Eric Lindros, although, in hindsight, Scott Niedermayer turned out to be better than Lindros.

You are also wrong that the Leafs were never in playoff contention.
On January 2, 1991:
Minnesota - 44 GP, 11-24-7, 29 pts
Toronto - 42 GP, 12-26-2, 26 pts

Toronto was three points behind Minnesota with two games in hand. They played the North Stars the next night, and a win would have put them a point out and still have two games in hand. That's playoff contention.

Had Minnesota continued to play at that pace and Toronto played near .500 hockey (they were 10-11-1 in 22 games following the Jets deal and actually had a record of 8-5-1 in December), then the Leafs take over 4th in the Norris. No one was expecting the North Stars to turn their season around the way they did. If Toronto sneaks in, at the worst, their pick is 7th. All of a sudden, a potential Lindros pick turns into someone like Richard Matvichuk or Alex Stojanov. This is the perfect scenario Toronto wanted.

As for Ellett/Fenton for Olczyk/Osborne - Ellett plugged in a massive hole on the Leafs defense. If they were tanking for Lindros, then yes, they trade Olczyk/Osborne for picks and prospects if they choose to move on from them. The Jets were desperate to have someone fill in for the recently departed Hawerchuk and with Housley now on the team, Ellett was put on the block. The Leafs obviously felt that Ellett was a valuable player for them to add and felt Olczyk and Osbourne was worth it. The trade worked out well for Toronto - Ellett helped them avoid finishing in last and would be a valuable player during their runs in 93 and 94. Winnipeg wasn't trading prospects and picks in 90-91 - only once did they trade a pick (4th rounder) for a player (Mike Eagles). At the time, it may have looked like an overpay for Ellett, but in reality, it wasn't. Ellett was the best player following the trade who had the best career. Also, to note, Ellett was the highest paid player in the deal ($340,000) compared to Olczyk ($290,000), Osborne ($270,000) and Fenton ($263,000). Olczyk could never stay healthy and Osborne's offense completely disappeared.

If it is worth anything, Michel Bergeron once said on TV, that the Leafs were menacing them with finishing last and that the trade was to make sure the Nordiques would.

The Nordiques themselves said they made that trade with Toronto to make sure they finished in last. Toronto doesn't make this deal at all if they own the Lindros pick.

 

[Jets4Life]

They were desperate to finish ahead of Quebec - don't you think it would be embarrassing for the franchise to see New Jersey select Eric Lindros using their pick that they used on Tom Kurvers. Basically, not finishing in last was almost as good as winning the Cup for the Leafs in 1990-91 following their dreadful 2-15-1 start. Remember, in 1991, there was no lottery, if you finished in last, you picked first. The Leafs won in the sense that it wasn't their pick that turned into Eric Lindros, although, in hindsight, Scott Niedermayer turned out to be better than Lindros.

It was still very early in the season, and Toronto was only 3-4 points behind Quebec. Again, it makes no sense to deal Olczyk and Osborne to Winnipeg, if the Leafs were that desperate to not finish last.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

I'm a big believer in the butterfly effect, so if Toronto doesn't trade the 1st that became Niedermayer for Kurvers, then everything changes to the point where they don't have Nylander, Marner, and Matthews now. That trade set the events in motion for where the Leafs are presently.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

As for Ellett/Fenton for Olczyk/Osborne - Ellett plugged in a massive hole on the Leafs defense. If they were tanking for Lindros, then yes, they trade Olczyk/Osborne for picks and prospects if they choose to move on from them. The Jets were desperate to have someone fill in for the recently departed Hawerchuk and with Housley now on the team, Ellett was put on the block. The Leafs obviously felt that Ellett was a valuable player for them to add and felt Olczyk and Osbourne was worth it. The trade worked out well for Toronto - Ellett helped them avoid finishing in last and would be a valuable player during their runs in 93 and 94. Winnipeg wasn't trading prospects and picks in 90-91 - only once did they trade a pick (4th rounder) for a player (Mike Eagles). At the time, it may have looked like an overpay for Ellett, but in reality, it wasn't. Ellett was the best player following the trade who had the best career. Also, to note, Ellett was the highest paid player in the deal ($340,000) compared to Olczyk ($290,000), Osborne ($270,000) and Fenton ($263,000). Olczyk could never stay healthy and Osborne's offense completely disappeared.

ironically, ellett on the jets was like kurvers had been on the habs. a good player, but expendable.

with housley, olausson, and numminen there was no need for ellett. but he was a legit good player that toronto jumped on

i’m not really sure i understand what is being argued in this thread about the trade, but looking back at it, wow it’s kind of a mindf*** that olczyk was only 24. he had been in the league for so long and my memory of him on winnipeg is he was so washed.

osborne was a vet who could do a lot of little things coming off a career year, obviously in hindsight about to fall off a cliff. but lost in this is the fourth guy in the traede, paul fenton, also was a veteran role player coming off a career year, albeit one with far less of an offensive track record than osborne. on that 1990 jets team that pushed the oilers to seven, fenton scored 32 goals, 27 at ES.

that said, toronto was cutting bait on 2/3 of its top line, the third guy being leeman, all coming off breakthrough/career seasons. that’s an awful lot for a team whose second line from the previous season consisted of dan marois, who already was looking like a one year wonder, and tom fergus, who was out indefinitely and looked like damaged goods (the third guy was damphousse). they did have wendel clark back playing his fullest season in four years, but his health also was a constant question mark.

and ellett, i think he gets remembered as the number one on those cliff fletcher leafs teams, but i don’t think he really was. macoun was their best overall dman (their hamhuis, if you will), lefebvre was the defensive rock (the mitchell), and todd gill was a wild ride (the bieksa). ellett was their best offensive guy and was passable on his own side of the puck, but he was really more like their doug lidster than a real number one.

but it does look ellett made kurvers expendable again. coming off a 50 pt season on a three-headed D with iaftate and ramage, kurvers scored zero pts from the day of the ellett trade to when he was sent to vancouver for brian bradley. as i mentioned upthread, after the trade, kurvers scored 27 pts in the remaining 32 games (+ 4 in six playoff games), so he wasn’t cooked; he just was replaced by a better version of himself.