What if players thread

[TheBig08]

This is a thread just talk about what careers might have look liked for what if players. For example would mario lemuiex stats and overall career look like if he was never injured or mike bossy, pavel bure, bobby orr never got injured. What if bobby hull never left the for wha and played in the nhl.

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[Michael Farkas]

What if Gretzky started his career in '89 instead of '79...

 

[Brodeur]

Edmonton Oilers vs. Los Angeles Kings Box Score: December 30, 1999 | Hockey-Reference.com

Get the latest box score updates on the Edmonton Oilers vs. Los Angeles Kings game played on December 30, 1999 on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

I still have fond memories of coming home from college for the holiday break in 1999. I didn't have much time to watch hockey while at school, but finally had some free time. I watched this Kings game and had no idea who this Jere Karalahti guy was. In the game, he led the Kings in ice time (more than Rob Blake), he threw a couple thunderous hits, and scored a pair of goals including a MacInnis-esque slapper. After that game, Karalahti had 5 points in 4 games and was +3. I was certain I had seen a star and I comically traded away another older rookie (some guy named Rafalski) to get Karalahti in my keeper league.

But the offense fizzled out. At least in that one game, I would have described him as something like a prime Jacob Trouba.

High Times Five years after he says he last smoked heroin, the L.A. Kings' Jere Karalahti looks back on his dreamy days on drugs

Jere Karalahti's favorite movie is Oliver Stone's Natural BornKillers, and when he thinks of the film's eerie, odd-angle shotsand the way its main character,

vault.si.com

Karalahti Would Put Alcohol First

The Kings were chilled this week by comments out of Finland from former King defenseman Jere Karalahti that, in essence, he would rather quit the NHL than have to give up drinking.

www.latimes.com

Former NHL player Karalahti faces drug charge

Former NHL player Jere Karalahti was charged Tuesday with being involved in smuggling amphetamines into Finland.

www.espn.com

Unfortunately I wasn't aware that he had ongoing substance abuse problems which would eventually lead to him being suspended by the NHL. Karalahti would go back to Europe and had a lengthy career.

It was a few years before my time, but Bryan Fogarty also was immensely talented but couldn't stay away from alcohol.

 

[Brodeur]

Since the draft cut off is around my birthday, I wonder about "what if" certain players had been born a day or two earlier/later.

Patrick Marleau (September 15th) - If he were born one day later, he would have been in the 1998 Draft. Coincidentally he might have still been drafted by San Jose, but then the Sharks probably would have ended up with Olli Jokinen in 1997 Draft en lieu of Brad Stuart + Jonathan Cheechoo in 1998. Marleau probably doesn't break the games played record if he had to wait another year to join the NHL.

Patrik Stefan (September 16th) - Born a day earlier and he's in the 1998 Draft. Does his career end up any better if he starts with Nashville or Vancouver instead of Atlanta? Brian Burke later told a story that he wanted to get both Sedins and Stefan in 1999.

Alexander Ovechkin (September 17th) - Comically Florida tried to draft him in 2003 on a technicality that the league denied. Panthers GM Rick Dudley knew he had a snowball's chance in hell, but figured it was worth a shot.

Auston Matthews (September 17th) - Do the stars align and Matthews ends up with the Coyotes if he were eligible in 2015?

Brady Tkachuk (September 16th) - Born a day earlier and he's in the 2017 Draft. Does he get into the conversation for the top pick?

----------

Maybe a slight tangent would be "what if" Rick DiPietro hadn't opted into the 2000 Draft? The Islanders would have proceeded (for at least a year) with Roberto Luongo, Olli Jokinen, and Marian Gaborik instead of DiPietro, Mark Parrish, and Oleg Kvasha.

And my favorite "almost trade" that I learned about in recent years was Quebec offering the rights to an unsigned Peter Forsberg to San Jose for the #2 pick in 1993. Quebec wanted Chris Pronger. Sharks GM Dean Lombardi fumed to the press afterwards implying he would have done the deal contingent on Forsberg signing. But since Quebec waited until the last minute, they had no time to talk to Forsberg's agent. The CBA was different in 1993 and there was no rookie salary cap plus Forsberg was about to get offer sheet rights. So San Jose couldn't risk trading the Pronger pick and having to give Forsberg a contract like Alexandre Daigle was about to sign.

But it's an interesting thought exercise with how things would have changed the next 15-20 years. How does Forsberg do in San Jose? Pronger in Quebec/Colorado? Mats Sundin maybe doesn't get traded and wins a couple Cups?

 

[banks]

What if Tony Hand stuck it out in North America?

The guy was Scottish, and played in British leagues. But he did come over to the Oilers camp during the Gretzky era, and everyone said he was the smartest player on the ice aside from Wayne. But he got homesick, and wasn't willing to play in lesser NA leagues if he made less money than back home. So he kept leaving for Britain.

His numbers in the British Hockey League show that he was absolutely too good to be playing there. Like 200 points in 35 games. Would he have been a star in the NHL? I think so.

Tony Hand - Wikipedia

 

[Michael Farkas]

What if Tony Hand stuck it out in North America?

The guy was Scottish, and played in British leagues. But he did come over to the Oilers camp during the Gretzky era, and everyone said he was the smartest player on the ice aside from Wayne. But he got homesick, and wasn't willing to play in lesser NA leagues if he made less money than back home. So he kept leaving for Britain.

His numbers in the British Hockey League show that he was absolutely too good to be playing there. Like 200 points in 35 games. Would he have been a star in the NHL? I think so.

Tony Hand - Wikipedia

Absolutely not. He didn't appear to be NHL caliber at all, much less a star. Other major junior wash outs put up similar stats in that beer league and no one cares about them. We have video of Hand, it's hard to find one NHL caliber aspect to his game.

If he had the ability to even be a top 9 NHL forward, he would have been...

 

[Soundgarden]

How would David Legwand look coming into an older franchise, he was forced to become a defense minded guy and only got to play with high caliber guys for about a season or two.

 

[gretzkyoilers]

Absolutely not. He didn't appear to be NHL caliber at all, much less a star. Other major junior wash outs put up similar stats in that beer league and no one cares about them. We have video of Hand, it's hard to find one NHL caliber aspect to his game.

If he had the ability to even be a top 9 NHL forward, he would have been...

Yup. In the BHL during the 1986-87 season, he wasn't even the leading scorer on his team: Rick Fera was, who did "OK" in the OHL, never playered in the NHL

Murrayfield Racers 1986-87 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 1986-87 Murrayfield Racers playing in the BHL.

www.hockeydb.com

Gary Unger was then retired from the NHL and got 238 points in 30 games:

Peterborough Pirates 1986-87 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 1986-87 Peterborough Pirates playing in the BHL.

www.hockeydb.com

 

[TheBig08]

what would bobby hulls career totals look like if he stayed in the nhl and never left for the wha? I would like to mainly know his goal totals.

 

[alko]

What if all great players from CSSR and USSR could play in NHL regularly?

 

[daver]

What if Tony Hand stuck it out in North America?

The guy was Scottish, and played in British leagues. But he did come over to the Oilers camp during the Gretzky era, and everyone said he was the smartest player on the ice aside from Wayne. But he got homesick, and wasn't willing to play in lesser NA leagues if he made less money than back home. So he kept leaving for Britain.

His numbers in the British Hockey League show that he was absolutely too good to be playing there. Like 200 points in 35 games. Would he have been a star in the NHL? I think so.

Tony Hand - Wikipedia

I see his nickname was Two Point Tony but I think there is a better one to be crafted.

The Scottish Rocket?

The Golden Haggis?

Tony the (Great) Hands?

 

[banks]

Absolutely not. He didn't appear to be NHL caliber at all, much less a star. Other major junior wash outs put up similar stats in that beer league and no one cares about them. We have video of Hand, it's hard to find one NHL caliber aspect to his game.

If he had the ability to even be a top 9 NHL forward, he would have been...

"At the training camp I could see that he had a great ability to read the ice and he was the smartest player there other than Wayne Gretzky. He skated well: his intelligence on the ice stood out. He was a real prospect."

- Oilers' Coach, Glen Sather. Oilers Training Camp, 1987

 

[Gorskyontario]

What if Dale Hawerchuk had at least 1 competent winger.

 

[jigglysquishy]

"At the training camp I could see that he had a great ability to read the ice and he was the smartest player there other than Wayne Gretzky. He skated well: his intelligence on the ice stood out. He was a real prospect."

- Oilers' Coach, Glen Sather. Oilers Training Camp, 1987

It's a nice platitude, but we saw Hand wasn't NHL calibre.

People wow at his stats, but he played in a very weak league and didn't dominate.

His highest career total, 1993-94, he put up 222 points in 44 games.

League leader, Patrick Scott, put up 319 points in 56 games. Scott wasn't good enough to make the WHL.

Or you can look at his 212 points in 35 games in 1988-89. He only finished third, behind Luc Chabot's 221 points in 24 games. Luc Chabot dominated Junior A hockey in Ontario, but wasn't good enough to make the OHL.

The common thread is that he gets outplayed by guys who weren't good enough to make the NHL. Not only not make the NHL, but not make the CHL.

 

[Michael Farkas]

"At the training camp I could see that he had a great ability to read the ice and he was the smartest player there other than Wayne Gretzky. He skated well: his intelligence on the ice stood out. He was a real prospect."

- Oilers' Coach, Glen Sather. Oilers Training Camp, 1987

I know, I read the quote too. We've all seen it. File it with "Yachmenev will be a 40 goal scorer" in this league. The video is extremely clear on this. The stats are extremely clear on this.

 

[Crosby2010]

I would say Orr is the biggest "what if" in NHL history. It isn't all bad because we know the career he had as it was with 8 Norrises in a row and really only stopping because his career was over. I do wonder how and when he slows down. Does he still play at that all out level by 1980? In the early 1980s is he still rushing the puck end to end? What happens without his knees getting damaged?

I think there is a ton of butterfly effect situations if Orr is healthy and doesn't have his bad knees. Take the 1972 Summit Series for example. I have no doubt there would be this respect among the NHL regardless at how the Soviets played the game. It would be noticeable how good they were and their skill and fundamentals and such. But we BARELY won in 1972. And in a way that was a victory for hockey and Canada and Russia as well. However, what if Orr is healthy? This is a prime Orr, playing as good as he perhaps ever did in his career. He tilts that serious big time. Canada doesn't go 4-3-1 in the series. They lose a game, especially one in Canada somewhere. Maybe even the first game in Montreal. But after that I think Canada sobers up and Orr just takes the series over. I think the series ends up 6-1-1 or something like that. We notice that the Soviets play the game darn well, but the presence of Orr sort of gives us a pass. He makes that entire roster look better from top to bottom.

If the Soviets are beaten like that they might wait a while before the Canada Cups start. Maybe there is one in 1976, I don't know, but even with Orr on the 1979 Challenge Cup the result is different I think. It might change the scope of international hockey. Or at least delays the Canada Cup tournaments. That and somewhere else the Bruins have got to win at least another Cup. It changes the outcome of at least one of the Habs or Isles dynasty. Imagine a healthy Orr and Park on the same team!

 

[JackSlater]

Since the draft cut off is around my birthday, I wonder about "what if" certain players had been born a day or two earlier/later.

Patrick Marleau (September 15th) - If he were born one day later, he would have been in the 1998 Draft. Coincidentally he might have still been drafted by San Jose, but then the Sharks probably would have ended up with Olli Jokinen in 1997 Draft en lieu of Brad Stuart + Jonathan Cheechoo in 1998. Marleau probably doesn't break the games played record if he had to wait another year to join the NHL.

Patrik Stefan (September 16th) - Born a day earlier and he's in the 1998 Draft. Does his career end up any better if he starts with Nashville or Vancouver instead of Atlanta? Brian Burke later told a story that he wanted to get both Sedins and Stefan in 1999.

Alexander Ovechkin (September 17th) - Comically Florida tried to draft him in 2003 on a technicality that the league denied. Panthers GM Rick Dudley knew he had a snowball's chance in hell, but figured it was worth a shot.

Auston Matthews (September 17th) - Do the stars align and Matthews ends up with the Coyotes if he were eligible in 2015?

Brady Tkachuk (September 16th) - Born a day earlier and he's in the 2017 Draft. Does he get into the conversation for the top pick?

----------

Maybe a slight tangent would be "what if" Rick DiPietro hadn't opted into the 2000 Draft? The Islanders would have proceeded (for at least a year) with Roberto Luongo, Olli Jokinen, and Marian Gaborik instead of DiPietro, Mark Parrish, and Oleg Kvasha.

And my favorite "almost trade" that I learned about in recent years was Quebec offering the rights to an unsigned Peter Forsberg to San Jose for the #2 pick in 1993. Quebec wanted Chris Pronger. Sharks GM Dean Lombardi fumed to the press afterwards implying he would have done the deal contingent on Forsberg signing. But since Quebec waited until the last minute, they had no time to talk to Forsberg's agent. The CBA was different in 1993 and there was no rookie salary cap plus Forsberg was about to get offer sheet rights. So San Jose couldn't risk trading the Pronger pick and having to give Forsberg a contract like Alexandre Daigle was about to sign.

But it's an interesting thought exercise with how things would have changed the next 15-20 years. How does Forsberg do in San Jose? Pronger in Quebec/Colorado? Mats Sundin maybe doesn't get traded and wins a couple Cups?

I never heard that about Pronger/Forsberg. Changes a lot of things in Colorado. Could easily see Sundin staying put if Forsberg isn't there as a high end prospect. Sundin and Pronger is obviously better than just Forsberg, but it's hard to see how it would impact Colorado's further moves, the Sakic signing, etc.

I wonder how Barry Pederson could have turned out if he had a long, healthy career and if he could have changed Boston's fortunes during the Bourque era. Somewhat related, what does Vancouver look like with Neely and the third overall pick from 1987? Maybe Neely never really breaks out and maybe Vancouver picks someone like Chris Joseph, but if Neely does break out and Vancouver takes Wesley maybe things look different as late as the 1994 Finals.

 

[NyQuil]

My favourite what-if trade was the Yashin for Yzerman trade that might have brought Steve back to his hometown (since he was 10) when he was briefly in the doghouse in Detroit.

Spezza and Chara were obviously great compensation in the end, but would have been interesting.

Via A2Y: Recalling the Yashin-for-Yzerman trade rumors

Via Paul Kukla of Abel to Yzerman comes this from the Hockey News’s Steve Warne, who recalls the trade rumors surrounding Alexei Yashin and Steve Yzerman in 1995-1996: Alexei Yashin remains t…

themalikreport.com

 

[Brodeur]

I never heard that about Pronger/Forsberg. Changes a lot of things in Colorado. Could easily see Sundin staying put if Forsberg isn't there as a high end prospect. Sundin and Pronger is obviously better than just Forsberg, but it's hard to see how it would impact Colorado's further moves, the Sakic signing, etc.

I stumbled on it a few years back, definitely an interesting retroactive read since the urban legend from that draft was Quebec offering a bunch for Daigle when they actually were targeting Pronger. Apparently the Nords brass no showed a meeting with the Sharks the night before the draft. Even before that point, Lombardi was annoyed with their negotiating tactics. It was only a year since Quebec traded Lindros twice, so I can only imagine they didn't have the best reputation.

 

[TheBig08]

I would say Orr is the biggest "what if" in NHL history. It isn't all bad because we know the career he had as it was with 8 Norrises in a row and really only stopping because his career was over. I do wonder how and when he slows down. Does he still play at that all out level by 1980? In the early 1980s is he still rushing the puck end to end? What happens without his knees getting damaged?

I think there is a ton of butterfly effect situations if Orr is healthy and doesn't have his bad knees. Take the 1972 Summit Series for example. I have no doubt there would be this respect among the NHL regardless at how the Soviets played the game. It would be noticeable how good they were and their skill and fundamentals and such. But we BARELY won in 1972. And in a way that was a victory for hockey and Canada and Russia as well. However, what if Orr is healthy? This is a prime Orr, playing as good as he perhaps ever did in his career. He tilts that serious big time. Canada doesn't go 4-3-1 in the series. They lose a game, especially one in Canada somewhere. Maybe even the first game in Montreal. But after that I think Canada sobers up and Orr just takes the series over. I think the series ends up 6-1-1 or something like that. We notice that the Soviets play the game darn well, but the presence of Orr sort of gives us a pass. He makes that entire roster look better from top to bottom.

If the Soviets are beaten like that they might wait a while before the Canada Cups start. Maybe there is one in 1976, I don't know, but even with Orr on the 1979 Challenge Cup the result is different I think. It might change the scope of international hockey. Or at least delays the Canada Cup tournaments. That and somewhere else the Bruins have got to win at least another Cup. It changes the outcome of at least one of the Habs or Isles dynasty. Imagine a healthy Orr and Park on the same team!

I got a few main ones i would like to know how their career would have turned out, I mainly want to know what their stats would have been. Mario Lemuiex if he never got injured, Bobby Orr if he never got injured, Mike Bossy if he never go injured, Bobby hull he never left the NHL for the WHA, Eric Lindros never gets injured, Peter Forsberg never gets injured, Sidney Crosby if he never got injured, Pavel Bure if he never got injured, Steven Stamkos if he never got injured, Danny Heatly never has the car accident, Iyla Kolvachuck stays in the NHL and doesn't leave for the KHL, Gordie Howe never leaves the NHL for the WHA, Jaromir Jagr doesnt leave the NHL for the KHL. If anybody could figure that stuff out and share the information that would be great.

Just a question if Ovi plays all his games during his career and has not lockout or covid shortened season does he get 1000 or more goals?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

my biggest one has always been what if mattias ohlund hadn’t gotten sticked in the eye in the pre-season of his third year and lost half his vision in one eye.

as it was, he was excellent. a huge, physical A+ defender with B puck moving. one of my favourite players ever. but man, if you could have added, say, jovo-level offence to his game...

 

[Crosby2010]

I got a few main ones i would like to know how their career would have turned out, I mainly want to know what their stats would have been. Mario Lemuiex if he never got injured, Bobby Orr if he never got injured, Mike Bossy if he never go injured, Bobby hull he never left the NHL for the WHA, Eric Lindros never gets injured, Peter Forsberg never gets injured, Sidney Crosby if he never got injured, Pavel Bure if he never got injured, Steven Stamkos if he never got injured, Danny Heatly never has the car accident, Iyla Kolvachuck stays in the NHL and doesn't leave for the KHL, Gordie Howe never leaves the NHL for the WHA, Jaromir Jagr doesnt leave the NHL for the KHL. If anybody could figure that stuff out and share the information that would be great.

Just a question if Ovi plays all his games during his career and has not lockout or covid shortened season does he get 1000 or more goals?

A lot of what ifs. I don't think much changes with Stamkos as he was still a very good goal scorer after 2014. Still had quite easily a HHOF career.

Heatley still had two 50 goal 100+ point seasons after the accident. So he still put up the big numbers. I would say that in 2003 he looked like a guy who drove the play a lot more, while in Ottawa he was more of a sniper and a trigger man and not the guy carrying the puck up the ice as much as Spezza or Alfredsson. Bobby Hull and Mario are the two guys with the best bets to challenge Gretzky's 894 goals if they hadn't had either injuries (Mario) or had their NHL career interrupted (both).

 

[Hobnobs]

Patrik Stefan (September 16th) - Born a day earlier and he's in the 1998 Draft. Does his career end up any better if he starts with Nashville or Vancouver instead of Atlanta? Brian Burke later told a story that he wanted to get both Sedins and Stefan in 1999.

The problem for Stefan wasn't that he was a bust but that he was injured to hell before getting to the NHL. Even if he was drafted in 1998 he would most likely have ended up being a mid-6 two-way center with average to below average offensive stats.

He was never really an offensively gifted player. So no, he would still end up an injured disappointment because of lofty expectations that he never should've had to begin with.

 

[TheBig08]

A lot of what ifs. I don't think much changes with Stamkos as he was still a very good goal scorer after 2014. Still had quite easily a HHOF career.

Heatley still had two 50 goal 100+ point seasons after the accident. So he still put up the big numbers. I would say that in 2003 he looked like a guy who drove the play a lot more, while in Ottawa he was more of a sniper and a trigger man and not the guy carrying the puck up the ice as much as Spezza or Alfredsson. Bobby Hull and Mario are the two guys with the best bets to challenge Gretzky's 894 goals if they hadn't had either injuries (Mario) or had their NHL career interrupted (both).

yes Stamkos was still a good goal scorer after the injury but could he have been a better one and put up more goals? same with Heatly?, lmk what you think about that.

If gretzky, bossy, lemuiex, bure, bobby hull never got injured they all would have got probably over 1,000 goals, and wayne gets over 3,000 points, lmk what you think about that.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I know Bure was hurt a lot...but 2300-points hurt? That's a bundle...

EDIT: Oh, I see...Bure doesn't get 3000. Bure was only 600-goals hurt. All right then.