What if Doug Favell isn't traded in 1973?

[Canadiens1958]

Not So

In 1972-73 the Philadelphia Flyers finished 2nd in the West Division and had their finest season to date. They eliminated Minnesota in a tough 6 game series and they battled Montreal hard in the semi-finals losing in 5 games.

The Flyers goaltender was Doug Favell who had been with them since their expansion year of 1967-68. Favell was known as a brilliantly talented goalie but one who could be terribly inconsistent. At his best, Favell could rival the elite goalie’s in the NHL. At his worst he appeared unable to make an AHL squad.

Favell played brilliantly in the 1973 playoffs. Philadelphia lost to Montreal not because Favell didn’t play well. He did – Montreal was simply better.

Now here is a “What If.” What if the Flyers don’t trade Doug Favell to Toronto for Bernie Parent in the summer of 1973? How far do the Flyers go in 1973-74 with Favell in net?

Craig Wallace

Extreme revisionist history.

Flyers won game 1 in OT at the Forum. Game 2 went into OT at the Forum, Flyers should have / could have won in regulation or OT, then Favell simply fanned on an unscreened shot from Larry Robinson, 55 footer, just inside the blueline.

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?O19730026

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=KQwyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wKEFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=1544,4883838

Favell's comments about the Robinson shot:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=KQwyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wKEFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=2994,4889108

Games 3 & 4 the Flyers at worst played the Canadiens even but lost both at the Spectrum. Game 5 the Flyers led 3-2 going into the third period.

1973-74 Flyers with Favell go nowhere.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Ya, those 70's Habs werent Choir Boys, No Siree Bob. In Montreal? Forget it. If you werent already corrupt youd soon be corrupted. Lead down the garden path to all kinds of crazy. No question bout that.... no, I was referring more to the "culture" of the Shenanigans. You were dealing with the tale-end of the far more reserved Beliveau era whereas Boston, that was Full Throttle. Beyond what would or could possibly be considered even remotely "decent". Nice group of young men just enjoying themselves. You kiddin me? And I cant see some college boy from Cornell exactly "fitting in" to that kind of insanity.... as for Bowman, yep, not much liked but certainly respected. Sinden not so much but certainly Cherry, a players coach. I think the dynamic between Bowman & Dryden was healthy, better for the latter, more clinical, non-conversant. Really, its hard to say. But from what I know of Dryden, his foibles, predisposition, general make-up & how he both approached the game & played it, I think he was as lucky to have wound up in Montreal when he did as Montreal was lucky enough that he arrived when he did. Im not so sure those talents & skills wouldve blossomed elsewhere had he hit a bad patch out of the gate playing for a weaker team.

a few stories that are out there from the Bowman years in Montreal..

A Players (I forger who it was) came back to the hotel late and after curfew. this was during a time when teams could fine a player for missing bed check. Bowman catches the player and says he is fined X amount. THe player hands over double the fine and tells Bowman that is for tomorrow night as well.

When Bowman left the Canadians, the stories came out of him going though garbage bags trying to find receipts of where the players where going so he and his staff could keep an eye on them.

There is a difference between being liked and respected. A few players on the Canadians out right hated Bowman and later said they had no respect for him. Others said they could not stand him, but respected him because he did put in the time in and there is a reason, even players who hated him, used many of the coaching techniques they learned while playing for him. Then you have Larry Robinson, he suggested that as a coach he did the opposite of what Bowman did--LR is considered a players coach and was too nice to the players and that is one reason he made a better assistant then head coach. People are looking at what went wrong with the Devils this year? Robinson left to go to San Jose this year

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

a few stories that are out there from the Bowman years in Montreal..

A Players (I forger who it was) came back to the hotel late and after curfew. this was during a time when teams could fine a player for missing bed check. Bowman catches the player and says he is fined X amount. THe player hands over double the fine and tells Bowman that is for tomorrow night as well.

When Bowman left the Canadians, the stories came out of him going though garbage bags trying to find receipts of where the players where going so he and his staff could keep an eye on them.

There is a difference between being liked and respected. A few players on the Canadians out right hated Bowman and later said they had no respect for him. Others said they could not stand him, but respected him because he did put in the time in and there is a reason, even players who hated him, used many of the coaching techniques they learned while playing for him. Then you have Larry Robinson, he suggested that as a coach he did the opposite of what Bowman did--LR is considered a players coach and was too nice to the players and that is one reason he made a better assistant then head coach. People are looking at what went wrong with the Devils this year? Robinson left to go to San Jose this year

Steve Shutt said it best. They hated him 364 days of the year, but loved him on the 365th when they collected their rings.

 

[Killion]

a few stories that are out there from the Bowman years in Montreal.. A Players (I forget who it was) came back to the hotel late and after curfew. this was during a time when teams could fine a player for missing bed check. Bowman catches the player and says he is fined X amount. THe player hands over double the fine and tells Bowman that is for tomorrow night as well.

... thats a good one. No fear. Montreal's always been a favourite stop for visiting teams, so playing there, ah, ya, you'd kinda have the city at your feet. Story of Bobby Hull, who couldnt keep it in his pants to save his life apparently, staggers outside of a bar one night in Montreal with a woman in tow, spots Gump Worsley getting into his car, yells at him where you going Gump?, lets go get laid. Gumps wife's sitting right next to him in the passenger seat unseen by the Golden Jet. Talk about shrivelling up into a little round ball...

 

[cam042686]

Extreme revisionist history.

Flyers won game 1 in OT at the Forum. Game 2 went into OT at the Forum, Flyers should have / could have won in regulation or OT, then Favell simply fanned on an unscreened shot from Larry Robinson, 55 footer, just inside the blueline.

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?O19730026

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=KQwyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wKEFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=1544,4883838

Favell's comments about the Robinson shot:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=KQwyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wKEFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=2994,4889108

Games 3 & 4 the Flyers at worst played the Canadiens even but lost both at the Spectrum. Game 5 the Flyers led 3-2 going into the third period.

1973-74 Flyers with Favell go nowhere.

I don't think that is really fair. Favell could be hot and cold. But I watched the 74 and 75 playoffs and have many games on tape. Bernie did blow some shots as well.

Craig

 

[Killion]

Favell could be hot and cold.

Yes he certainly could rise to the occasion. In his rookie season with Philly sharing the crease with Parent I believe his numbers were actually slightly better however Parent did receive the lions share of starts before being traded to Toronto. Thereafter however, Doug Favell became the workhorse and if not spectacular certainly "very good". When he was traded to the Leafs for Parent, I remember watching him, being impressed with his poise & positional play, and despite playing behind a ragamuffin team, performed extremely well. In his second year however he suffered an injury, got seriously shell shocked (Leafs were pathetic, full-on meltdown), down-hill from there. By his 3rd year, I believe it was a knee injury that limited him to just a handful of games, his rights then sold to KC Scouts who became the Rockies, where he did, despite playing behind a horrific team display some flashes of brilliance in sometimes facing 45-50+ shots every game.

He played in Parents shadow from Jr through the minors with Boston, in Philly, swapped for Bernie winding up in Toronto, getting injured, and from there, wound down through Colorado, stint in the minors. He certainly had all the tools to go from being "good" to "great", thing is, he wasnt going to get that chance with the Leafs nor Colorado. Perhaps under different circumstances, had he been traded to Toronto & not Parent, tutored under Plante, then been traded back to Philadelphia, well, its hard to say.... and Bernie Parent? He was brilliant, and a special talent. Would he have achieved such heights without Plante putting the finishing touches on his game? I dont believe so. He'd be just "very good", like Doug Favell, and that I dont believe wouldve been good enough to have backstopped the Flyers to Stanley Cups' in 74 or 75.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Year-by-year Flyers' totals here (for a Favell/Parent comparison):

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/nhl/philadelphia.html

In the four years they played together (regular season), Favell was better for two years and Parent was better for two years. (It's also nice to see goaltenders with odd numbers in the penalty minutes column ).

Parent's first year back, however, may have been the greatest goaltending season in NHL history. He was 108 goals better than a replacement-level netminder in the regular season, and an additional 23 goals better in the playoffs.

In his regular season, he was 5.6 standard deviations above average, meaning that the odds of an average goaltender doing what he did that year were 1 in 93.3 million.

 

[Quatre Vingt Treize]

Year-by-year Flyers' totals here (for a Favell/Parent comparison):

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/nhl/philadelphia.html

In the four years they played together (regular season), Favell was better for two years and Parent was better for two years. (It's also nice to see goaltenders with odd numbers in the penalty minutes column ).

Parent's first year back, however, may have been the greatest goaltending season in NHL history. He was 108 goals better than a replacement-level netminder in the regular season, and an additional 23 goals better in the playoffs.

In his regular season, he was 5.6 standard deviations above average, meaning that the odds of an average goaltender doing what he did that year were 1 in 93.3 million.

Can you get replacement-level netminder stats for today's goalies?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Can you get replacement-level netminder stats for today's goalies?

My estimates suggest that replacement-level goaltenders are about 0.015 worse (save percentage) than league average. I'd like to do something more rigorous, once I figure out a clever way to do it that doesn't involve circular logic.

More to the point, they're all on http://hockeygoalies.org - under Biographies, find the goaltender you're interested in, then click on "REGULAR SEASON STATISTICS" (or "POSTSEASON STATISTICS").

For instance:
http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/mclean.html

 

[Quatre Vingt Treize]

My estimates suggest that replacement-level goaltenders are about 0.015 worse (save percentage) than league average. I'd like to do something more rigorous, once I figure out a clever way to do it that doesn't involve circular logic.

More to the point, they're all on http://hockeygoalies.org - under Biographies, find the goaltender you're interested in, then click on "REGULAR SEASON STATISTICS" (or "POSTSEASON STATISTICS").

For instance:
http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/mclean.html

Yup, I don't fully understand the value of it yet but like stats like this. Something like WAR in baseball

 

[Mad Habber]

Flyers don't win either of their Cups.

Lose to the Rangers in the 74 semi's. Isles or Sabres in 75 and to the Habs in 76.

Another what if thread. So I'll add along those lines.

Flyers lose to the Rangers. Boston plays NY in the finals in a rematch from 2 years earlier. So who wins.

If Rangers win, do they trade Ratelle and Park for Esposito and Vadnais 2 years later and subsequently Middleton for Hodge to reunite him with Espo.

If Boston wins, do they make that trade.

That one What if has repercussions that affect the hockey world for a long time.

My opinion, whoever wins, that trade doesn't happen as one of those teams is still too fresh off their championship win. The other team might still trade, but with someone else.