What if Doug Favell isn't traded in 1973?

[cam042686]

In 1972-73 the Philadelphia Flyers finished 2nd in the West Division and had their finest season to date. They eliminated Minnesota in a tough 6 game series and they battled Montreal hard in the semi-finals losing in 5 games.

The Flyers goaltender was Doug Favell who had been with them since their expansion year of 1967-68. Favell was known as a brilliantly talented goalie but one who could be terribly inconsistent. At his best, Favell could rival the elite goalie’s in the NHL. At his worst he appeared unable to make an AHL squad.

Favell played brilliantly in the 1973 playoffs. Philadelphia lost to Montreal not because Favell didn’t play well. He did – Montreal was simply better.

Now here is a “What If.†What if the Flyers don’t trade Doug Favell to Toronto for Bernie Parent in the summer of 1973? How far do the Flyers go in 1973-74 with Favell in net?

Craig Wallace

 

[Trottier]

Before this thread rapidly becomes a statfest, I'll simply say that the most dominating display of goaltending I ever saw was Bernie Parent circa 1973-76. And that includes Hasek in his prime.

As such, as solid a defensive team as those Flyers teams were, I can't imagine Favell matching his play. How that nets out with regard to them achieving two Cups and three Finals over those three seasons with Favell in net is anyone's guess.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Flyers don't win either of their Cups.

Lose to the Rangers in the 74 semi's. Isles or Sabres in 75 and to the Habs in 76.

 

[Big Phil]

Who knows? Lots could happen. The Flyers would still be waiting for their first Cup. Barber probably never makes the HHOF. Clarke is viewed differently. Even the Bruins or the French Connection line are probably more revered.

Parent was the central figure in those wins. He beat two great teams in the final and both times these were 6 game series. He was the best goalie in the world at that time. He couldn't be replaced.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

The Flyers did make the finals with Wayne Stephonson in net in 75-76, so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that they can make the finals in the two years they won the cup with Favell as the starter, but I don't think they beat the Bruins in 74, but might have a shot against the Sabres in 75. That Semi final in 75 against the Isles becomes questionable though.

 

[cam042686]

The Flyers did make the finals with Wayne Stephonson in net in 75-76, so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that they can make the finals in the two years they won the cup with Favell as the starter, but I don't think they beat the Bruins in 74, but might have a shot against the Sabres in 75. That Semi final in 75 against the Isles becomes questionable though.

Just a quick question. What happened to the Flyers in the 1975 semi-finals against the Islanders? With Parent playing so well how did New York take 3 in a row from them and almost win the series?

Craig

 

[hockeypuck2012]

Just a quick question. What happened to the Flyers in the 1975 semi-finals against the Islanders? With Parent playing so well how did New York take 3 in a row from them and almost win the series?

Craig

A few factors....

The '72 Islanders SUCKED, but Bill Torrey learned from the mistakes of Oakland & kept his draft picks.
Those draft picks paid off.
The '75 Islanders formed the nucleus of their dynasty team. They eliminated the Penguins after being down 0-3 & were on a high.


http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/NYI/1975.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/NYI/1980.html

 

[Michael Farkas]

I would have assumed Favell would have some strikes against him going into this, does he not give up crippling and terrible goals to close out the 1970 and 1972 regular season that cost the Flyers a playoff spot? Or is Parent responsible for one of them (1972?)?

 

[Quatre Vingt Treize]

In 1972-73 the Philadelphia Flyers finished 2nd in the West Division and had their finest season to date. They eliminated Minnesota in a tough 6 game series and they battled Montreal hard in the semi-finals losing in 5 games.

The Flyers goaltender was Doug Favell who had been with them since their expansion year of 1967-68. Favell was known as a brilliantly talented goalie but one who could be terribly inconsistent. At his best, Favell could rival the elite goalie’s in the NHL. At his worst he appeared unable to make an AHL squad.

Favell played brilliantly in the 1973 playoffs. Philadelphia lost to Montreal not because Favell didn’t play well. He did – Montreal was simply better.

Now here is a “What If.†What if the Flyers don’t trade Doug Favell to Toronto for Bernie Parent in the summer of 1973? How far do the Flyers go in 1973-74 with Favell in net?

Craig Wallace

Favell didn't do much after he left Philly. Parent trade was great trade for Philly...won them a couple of Cups.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Parent stays with the Philadelphia Blazers. He leads the Blazers to an Avco Cup or two in the following seasons. The Blazers franchise thrives and is included in the 1979 merger with the NHL giving Philly two NHL teams. A statue of Bernie Parent is erected outside of the Spectrum.

 

[cam042686]

I would have assumed Favell would have some strikes against him going into this, does he not give up crippling and terrible goals to close out the 1970 and 1972 regular season that cost the Flyers a playoff spot? Or is Parent responsible for one of them (1972?)?

Parent gave up a goal to Barry Gibbs to cost Philly a playoff spot at the end of the 1969-70 season. Favell gave up a goal to Gerry Meehan with 4 seconds left in the last game of the 1971-72 season, to cost Philly a playoff spot.

Favell played very well in the 1973 playoffs for Philly. The Flyers didn't lose to Montreal in 73 due to bad goaltending.

Craig

 

[Killion]

Parent gave up a goal to Barry Gibbs to cost Philly a playoff spot at the end of the 1969-70 season. Favell gave up a goal to Gerry Meehan with 4 seconds left in the last game of the 1971-72 season, to cost Philly a playoff spot.

Favell played very well in the 1973 playoffs for Philly. The Flyers didn't lose to Montreal in 73 due to bad goaltending.

Craig

... well, had Parent not been afforded the luxury of playing understudy to his childhood hero Jacques Plante in Toronto before returning to Philly, he wouldnt have been the incredible goaltender he turned out to be. Favell was indeed a brilliant goaltender, though somewhat quixotic, a hair inconsistent. It mightve had to do with being shipped around a lot. I think he was happy in Philadelphia, not "unhappy" when he wound up in Toronto but still. Goaltending is like 90% mental. Its quite possible had he stuck in Philly he'd have matured into the complete package, because frankly, the guy had all the tools. Quick feet, hands, great with his stick, played the angles to a 'T', aggressive. Always on the cusp of greatness but never quite reaching it. Unlike others here, I wouldnt write off the Flyers Cups if by chance he rather than Parent was in goal.

 

[cam042686]

... well, had Parent not been afforded the luxury of playing understudy to his childhood hero Jacques Plante in Toronto before returning to Philly, he wouldnt have been the incredible goaltender he turned out to be. Favell was indeed a brilliant goaltender, though somewhat quixotic, a hair inconsistent. It mightve had to do with being shipped around a lot. I think he was happy in Philadelphia, not "unhappy" when he wound up in Toronto but still. Goaltending is like 90% mental. Its quite possible had he stuck in Philly he'd have matured into the complete package, because frankly, the guy had all the tools. Quick feet, hands, great with his stick, played the angles to a 'T', aggressive. Always on the cusp of greatness but never quite reaching it. Unlike others here, I wouldnt write off the Flyers Cups if by chance he rather than Parent was in goal.

Good points! I just finished re-reading Gerry Cheevers' 1971 book "Goaltender." In it he said the Flyers had the best two young goalies in hockey in Favell and Parent. (This was before the trade with Toronto.) However he also said that Parent while being exceptionally talented lacked motivation and he felt if Parent could ever match Favell's "fire" he would be unbeatable. Well I guess Plante did show Parent some tips on getting and remaining motivated.

The knock on Doug Favell was his lack of consistency. In one game (such as Game 1 of the 1974 Quarterfinals versus Boston) he could play at a "superhuman" level. In the before mentioned game against Boston the Leafs lost 1-0 while Favell had the Bruins talking to themselves. Some have called that among the best goaltending performances ever seen in Boston Garden. But then Doug would turn around look like he couldn't make a CIS squad. He had the talent that's for sure. My belief is with Favell the Flyers would have not been that far off a Cup. They made a great run with him in 1973 - they had the misfortune of running into a much better Montreal team.

Craig

 

[Killion]

Good points! I just finished re-reading Gerry Cheevers' 1971 book "Goaltender." In it he said the Flyers had the best two young goalies in hockey in Favell and Parent. (This was before the trade with Toronto.) However he also said that Parent while being exceptionally talented lacked motivation and he felt if Parent could ever match Favell's "fire" he would be unbeatable. Well I guess Plante did show Parent some tips on getting and remaining motivated.

Craig

... yes, its an interesting comparison, thought. As you know, Parent & Favell were Star-Crossed from an early age, both having shared the crease in Junior with Niagara Falls, both being drafted by Boston, both winding up in Philly, Parent being traded to Toronto, then the Flyers reversing their decision & sending Favell to the Leafs in exchange for Parent. I remember Favell quite well, as Im originally from Toronto & was a goalie myself so I paid attention to him, and ya, he was impressive.

Unfortunately at that time, Harold Ballard was in full-on egomaniacal mode, heading to prison, the Leafs a mess. Eventually Favell injured his elbow requiring surgery & that was pretty much it for Toronto. Shame really, because had the Leafs had astute management, hung on to Keon etc, they had the makings of being a really good club with Favell as the starter.

I really appreciated his fire, aggressiveness, and I think it unfair to assume that he couldnt have risen to the occassion with the Flyers in 74/75. He was the first guy to curve his waffle blocker, an interesting & effective method to deflect high shots high straight out or into the corners, well off the ice; and also the first to paint his mask. Additionally, he also played professional Lacrosse, inducted into the Ontario Lacrosse Hall of Fame.

 

[cam042686]

... yes, its an interesting comparison, thought. As you know, Parent & Favell were Star-Crossed from an early age, both having shared the crease in Junior with Niagara Falls, both being drafted by Boston, both winding up in Philly, Parent being traded to Toronto, then the Flyers reversing their decision & sending Favell to the Leafs in exchange for Parent. I remember Favell quite well, as Im originally from Toronto & was a goalie myself so I paid attention to him, and ya, he was impressive.

Unfortunately at that time, Harold Ballard was in full-on egomaniacal mode, heading to prison, the Leafs a mess. Eventually Favell injured his elbow requiring surgery & that was pretty much it for Toronto. Shame really, because had the Leafs had astute management, hung on to Keon etc, they had the makings of being a really good club with Favell as the starter.

I really appreciated his fire, aggressiveness, and I think it unfair to assume that he couldnt have risen to the occassion with the Flyers in 74/75. He was the first guy to curve his waffle blocker, an interesting & effective method to deflect high shots high straight out or into the corners, well off the ice; and also the first to paint his mask. Additionally, he also played professional Lacrosse, inducted into the Ontario Lacrosse Hall of Fame.

Are you sure it was his elbow? I thought he hurt his knee.

I know Favell and Red Kelly didn't get along. Kelly benched Favell for the 1975 playoffs deciding to use Gordon McRae which I always thought was a strange move. I think Favell would have been super pumped to take on Philly that year in the playoffs. Not saying Toronto wins that series if he plays (and to be honest he didn't have a great 74-75 season.) But a hot Favell may have allowed the Leafs to steal a game or so.

Craig

 

[Killion]

Are you sure it was his elbow? I thought he hurt his knee.... I know Favell and Red Kelly didn't get along.

I checked a couple of sources to be sure; appears to be elbow. Memory not all gone apparently.... I wasnt aware that he didnt get along with Kelly. Maybe because he tended to be temperamental? Kelly was old school. All 4 door sedan & roast beef Sundays. Marty Robbins & Bonanza. I understand he did have some problems with Favells' generation, the younger Leafs.

 

[cam042686]

I checked a couple of sources to be sure; appears to be elbow. Memory not all gone apparently.... I wasnt aware that he didnt get along with Kelly. Maybe because he tended to be temperamental? Kelly was old school. All 4 door sedan & roast beef Sundays. Marty Robbins & Bonanza. I understand he did have some problems with Favells' generation, the younger Leafs.

That was interesting - thanks for the info.

Here is another question. How do we think Bernie Parent would have done if he returned to Toronto in 1973-74 as opposed to Philly?

Craig

 

[Killion]

How do we think Bernie Parent would have done if he returned to Toronto in 1973-74 as opposed to Philly?

... poorly IMO. With Ballard in full-on Destructo-Mode with the taste of jail still in his mouth he'd have probably traded him or demanded he sit if he had a bad game, period. Just another in a revolving door of some actually pretty good goaltenders who came & went before Palmateer pretty much secured the starting role. Had he managed to survive & not jumped to the WHA or whatever in order to escape the Zoo that was Harolds Gardens, hard to say. Do they take out the Islanders & move on? Mike Palmateer was pretty spectacular at his height back then & its debatable whether Parent wouldve been that much better that late in his career barring injury.

 

[cam042686]

... poorly IMO. With Ballard in full-on Destructo-Mode with the taste of jail still in his mouth he'd have probably traded him or demanded he sit if he had a bad game, period. Just another in a revolving door of some actually pretty good goaltenders who came & went before Palmateer pretty much secured the starting role. Had he managed to survive & not jumped to the WHA or whatever in order to escape the Zoo that was Harolds Gardens, hard to say. Do they take out the Islanders & move on? Mike Palmateer was pretty spectacular at his height back then & its debatable whether Parent wouldve been that much better that late in his career barring injury.

That would have been interesting. How does Bernie look in 1973-74 with the Leafs in front of him as opposed to the Flyers? And where does Philly end up with Favell?

Craig

 

[Killion]

That would have been interesting. How does Bernie look in 1973-74 with the Leafs in front of him as opposed to the Flyers? And where does Philly end up with Favell?

Craig

I think the Leafs still get smoked by Boston in the first round, and Philly doesnt win its Cups with Favell replacing Parent (all due respect to Doug Favell). Bernie Parent was IMO the best goalie in the game at that time (and yes, superior to Dryden).

 

[yave1964]

Parent was amazing in the postseason, no way no how could Favell or anyone else put up his numbers, which would have meant the Bruins won the cup. The Flyers might have, even likely won the following year against the Sabres, but Only God saves more than Parent was the mantra for a reason

 

[Jumptheshark]

here is the question for the next thread

What if Boston does not trade Dryden in 64 to the Canadians and instead wait him out to do his university

 

[Killion]

here is the question for the next thread

What if Boston does not trade Dryden in 64 to the Canadians and instead wait him out to do his university

In the exact same time period?... I'd say that might be a problem Dryden. In 70/71 & 71/72 the Bruins had the terrific tandem of Cheevers & Johnston so Im not sure he breaks in, however, interestingly, due to the enormous success of the NHL team Boston moved its top prospects to the Garden and operated an AHL franchise called the Braves from 71-74.

Their top goalie was Dan Bouchard, back up a journeyman minor leaguer, so it wouldve been a battle for Dryden to get beyond the Braves I should think as early as he did in Montreal from the Voyageurs. However, from 72-73 onward after Cheevers had defected to the WHA, Id hazard to guess he gets a tonne of starts, Boston beyond solid & reliable in the crease through the 70's, Montreal in a heap of trouble.

A word of caution though.... Dryden as we know is extremely esoteric, reflective, quiet, contemplative & reserved, an aesthetic. How he would have fit into the far more raucous & rowdy lunch pail gang in Boston Im not sure. He was given his space in Montreal, entirely different dynamic, type of game almost that was being played in front of him by the likes of Gainey, Shutt, Lafleur & all the rest of them. Coaching as well. Sinden/Cherry vs Bowman. Huge difference in styles right there. Early or bad goal, quickly yanked, pulled. Honestly, Im not sure Dryden wouldve handled it well.

 

[Jumptheshark]

In the exact same time period?... I'd say that might be a problem Dryden. In 70/71 & 71/72 the Bruins had the terrific tandem of Cheevers & Johnston so Im not sure he breaks in, however, interestingly, due to the enormous success of the NHL team Boston moved its top prospects to the Garden and operated an AHL franchise called the Braves from 71-74.

Their top goalie was Dan Bouchard, back up a journeyman minor leaguer, so it wouldve been a battle for Dryden to get beyond the Braves I should think as early as he did in Montreal from the Voyageurs. However, from 72-73 onward after Cheevers had defected to the WHA, Id hazard to guess he gets a tonne of starts, Boston beyond solid & reliable in the crease through the 70's, Montreal in a heap of trouble.

A word of caution though.... Dryden as we know is extremely esoteric, reflective, quiet, contemplative & reserved, an aesthetic. How he would have fit into the far more raucous & rowdy lunch pail gang in Boston Im not sure. He was given his space in Montreal, entirely different dynamic, type of game almost that was being played in front of him by the likes of Gainey, Shutt, Lafleur & all the rest of them. Coaching as well. Sinden/Cherry vs Bowman. Huge difference in styles right there. Early or bad goal, quickly yanked, pulled. Honestly, Im not sure Dryden wouldve handled it well.

HAving read several books on the Canadians during the time Dryden was there and from what I heard via the hockey grapevine during my junior days and what not-- The 1970's Canadians were not monks and tended to raise their bit of hell. Difference between the bruins and canadiens was winning. Bruins did not win and were as you described, Canadians won and party hard--they were called characters.

As for coaching-- Bowman was not liked by the players in montreal

 

[Killion]

As for coaching-- Bowman was not liked by the players in montreal

Ya, those 70's Habs werent Choir Boys, No Siree Bob. In Montreal? Forget it. If you werent already corrupt youd soon be corrupted. Lead down the garden path to all kinds of crazy. No question bout that.... no, I was referring more to the "culture" of the Shenanigans. You were dealing with the tale-end of the far more reserved Beliveau era whereas Boston, that was Full Throttle. Beyond what would or could possibly be considered even remotely "decent". Nice group of young men just enjoying themselves. You kiddin me? And I cant see some college boy from Cornell exactly "fitting in" to that kind of insanity.... as for Bowman, yep, not much liked but certainly respected. Sinden not so much but certainly Cherry, a players coach. I think the dynamic between Bowman & Dryden was healthy, better for the latter, more clinical, non-conversant. Really, its hard to say. But from what I know of Dryden, his foibles, predisposition, general make-up & how he both approached the game & played it, I think he was as lucky to have wound up in Montreal when he did as Montreal was lucky enough that he arrived when he did. Im not so sure those talents & skills wouldve blossomed elsewhere had he hit a bad patch out of the gate playing for a weaker team.