What does Draisaitl need to go down as the greatest ever number 2?

[Thenameless]

Perreault might've been the most beautiful player I saw across all the retro games I watched for the goalie project. I'm definitely a big fan, though I can't get as far with some of the names BenchBrawl listed, apart from Mikita.

Talentwise, Perreault and Frank Mahovlich stood out the most as players underrated by their raw numbers and award voting.

Perreault was so naturally talented. Every year around the mid to late 90s he'd come play with the Legends against the Vancouver Police, at the old Pacific Coliseum where the Canucks used to play. He had that great hockey sense of always being in the right place, and he looked to be gliding around effortlessly. Beautiful player to watch even well into retirement.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The only name I really hesitated was Clarke; Clarke was insanely good in the games I watched. Never seen anything like it in terms of defensive presence.

 

[MadLuke]

Put another way Leon has 7 elite season to LaFleur's 6 and that's likely to increase next year and perhaps beyond.

That has to count for something all time.

Yes for sure, put just say resume love big bullet point and winning 3 art ross, pearson and stanley cup in a row look better on a resume than one extra elite season.

Resume gap is getting thinner and thinner, but seem still there. I do not think beyond was something to be considered in the original phrasing : Heck Draisaitl's individual resume is better than Lafleur's right now right?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Lafleur was a bigger star than Draisaitl has ever been. The difference is not small, it is an enormous gap between their respective aura around the league.

Count resumes as much as you'd like, this is also a reality on the ground.

Go on any Lafleur article or video and read the comments from fans from every city, still mesmerized by the Flower 50 years later.

 

[wetcoast]

Yes for sure, put just say resume love big bullet point and winning 3 art ross, pearson and stanley cup in a row look better on a resume than one extra elite season.

Sure I get the
SC counting but objectively the context of the league and their actual individual resumes both regular season and playoffs point to Draisaitl having a higher and longer impact already, at least in terms of prime play.

Resume gap is getting thinner and thinner, but seem still there. I do not think beyond was something to be considered in the original phrasing : Heck Draisaitl's individual resume is better than Lafleur's right now right?

Okay that's fair but that extra year of elite play and Draisaitl scoring more points in less games in the playoffs in probably a harder era........seems a lot like not separating team effects on SC never mind the disparity of the league in the 70s.

Then again this board in the top players of all time sure goes out of their way to rate Lafleur extremely high IMO and others get subjectively nitpicked and Guy really doesn't to the same degree.

Leon is case in point or maybe it's hard to rank current guys?

 

[jigglysquishy]

Ya there's still a pretty significant gap between Lafleur and Draisaitl. Lafleur was the defacto best player in the world between Orr and Gretzky. Both media and players are all over him in praise.

The equivalent for Draisaitl would be fourth best forward of his era. Both Kucherov and MacKinnon get more contemporary praise from both players and media.

Vsx won't ever be the right tool for Draisaitl when his two highest VsX years come with his teammate at the game breaking 1 spot. I'm not saying Draisaitl is Francis, but I don't think he ever had the game to game domination we saw from Malkin or Forsberg or Kucherov. Even if the numbers indicate he did.

Now, Kucherov over Lafleur seems inevitable if he's not already there.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Now, Kucherov over Lafleur seems inevitable if he's not already there.

I disagree, for the same reason.

Kucherov has a comparable resume as Flower; not a comparable legend.

Maybe it is because he played in Tampa Bay, well then you get less pressure to play under you pay the price one way or another. No free lunch.

 

[Thenameless]

Yes for sure, put just say resume love big bullet point and winning 3 art ross, pearson and stanley cup in a row look better on a resume than one extra elite season.

Resume gap is getting thinner and thinner, but seem still there. I do not think beyond was something to be considered in the original phrasing : Heck Draisaitl's individual resume is better than Lafleur's right now right?

I also suspect that Lafleur will remain well ahead if Draisaitl can't ever close the deal with a Stanley Cup. More good regular seasons makes a player more of a longevity compiler who is unable to step up his game when it counts. Fair or unfair, it permeates all sports. Just look at guys like Marino and Barkley. Going deeper, maybe even just one Cup might not be enough with his own teammate hurting him. An argument might go "well, Lafleur never skated with anyone as good as McDavid, and he still managed four in a row..."

 

[wetcoast]

I also suspect that Lafleur will remain well ahead if Draisaitl can't ever close the deal with a Stanley Cup. More good regular seasons makes a player more of a longevity compiler who is unable to step up his game when it counts. Fair or unfair, it permeates all sports. Just look at guys like Marino and Barkley. Going deeper, maybe even just one Cup might not be enough with his own teammate hurting him. An argument might go "well, Lafleur never skated with anyone as good as McDavid, and he still managed four in a row..."

Well Im going to agree to disagree given that Lafleur simply had the fortune to be drafted by the Habs in the very top heavy 18 team 70s NHL and Draisaitl plays in a 30-32 salary cap era.

Had Dionne been drafted by Montreal we'd be talking about him here maybe.

At some point his resume is going to surpass Lafleur, assuming good health.

Leon isn't some guy with a Marcel Dionne playoff resume here.

That being said some people are going to have your POV I'm sure.

Lafleur skated in a much better team environment bringing up McDavid is a lazy main boards type of argument and I say this respectfully, those Habs teams were loaded and they would have won multiple SC's even with a replacement level NHLer in place of Lafleur.

 

[MadLuke]

Well Im going to agree to disagree given that Lafleur simply had the fortune to be drafted by the Habs in the very top heavy 18 team 70s NHL and Draisaitl plays in a 30-32 salary cap era.

All true, but it is someone else that brought the resume talk (which of course will be incredibly era-situation dependants, Lafleur has no Art Ross or a status of having been considered best player in the league by many for a while if he peak a bit later during Gretzky 200 pts seasons or cups on certains team, but he did and he has a great resume)

 

[Thenameless]

Well Im going to agree to disagree given that Lafleur simply had the fortune to be drafted by the Habs in the very top heavy 18 team 70s NHL and Draisaitl plays in a 30-32 salary cap era.

Had Dionne been drafted by Montreal we'd be talking about him here maybe.

At some point his resume is going to surpass Lafleur, assuming good health.

Leon isn't some guy with a Marcel Dionne playoff resume here.

That being said some people are going to have your POV I'm sure.

Lafleur skated in a much better team environment bringing up McDavid is a lazy main boards type of argument and I say this respectfully, those Habs teams were loaded and they would have won multiple SC's even with a replacement level NHLer in place of Lafleur.

And I respectfully disagree. Switch them and there's no guarantee that Montreal wins four in a row with Draisaitl having to carry the load. On the other hand, Edmonton's ability to push Florida to seven games and six games in the Finals leads me to believe that Lafleur could easily be the difference in either or both of those series. The Oilers would gain a gamebreaker that can easily carry his own line either as a playmaker or a goal scorer, proven not to disappear in the most pressure-packed situations. Lafleur would reduce the need for McDavid to play 30 minute nights, and this would actually raise McDavid's threat level every shift. Florida played with a lead a lot. I doubt that happens with Lafleur on the Oilers.

 

[wetcoast]

All true, but it is someone else that brought the resume talk (which of course will be incredibly era-situation dependants, Lafleur has no Art Ross or a status of having been considered best player in the league by many for a while if he peak a bit later during Gretzky 200 pts seasons or cups on certains team, but he did and he has a great resume)

Lafleur does have a great and unique resume with his 6 year peak lapping over his 6 year playoff peak on a dynasty team but I honestly think that Potvin was pretty terms in terms of best player during the 70s and one can argue that the Russians who weren't in the league had some candidates as well.

I'd also argue that Dionne was his regular season equal but played on extremely poorly constructed teams but this section really likes the SC winner aspect and rates every single top player form those Hab dynasties with the same "they were so important to the dynasty" in all time ratings but if that's really true it's amazing they even lost any games in the playoffs or regular season level exaggeration or oversight (I'm exaggerating but my point is clear here).

The 70s NHL was extremely top heavy and that adds to the Lafleur advantage but maybe it will take time for people to appreciate a 32 team salary cap league in comparison?

I guess we will wait to see what Draisaitl does the rest of his career but my guess is that we will be revisiting this thread again with more elite seasons and playoff performances by him.

 

[MadLuke]

Dionne could be seen as a regular season equal for sure, but that because of what happened later on, during Lafleur prime he was clearly (if not a lot) ahead.

75-80

PPG:
Lafleur.: 1.66
Dionne..: 1.45
Trottier: 1.36

Goal per games
Lafleur.: .71
Dionne..: .61
Trottier: .51

Playoff
Lafleur.: 1.53 ppg
Sittler.: 1.23
Linseman: 1.20
Dionne..: 0.96

His offensive output was a clean step above everyone else in the league, absolute and per game during his peak, Soviets not there, Orr injured, great puck moving defenseman on his team for sure, but he did it and no MTL Canadians were any close in that regard:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Either quite old by then (Cournoyer-Mahovlich) or not that special offensively for forward. Really good, all around more than that (Lemaire), but not special offensively raking numbers type.

Maybe one day we will adjust 2020s resume even more that we already do (maybe it will take time for people to appreciate a 32), we already adjust a lot, or it would not even be a conversation.

 

[wetcoast]

Dionne could be seen as a regular season equal for sure, but that because of what happened later on, during Lafleur prime he was clearly (if not a lot) ahead.

75-80

PPG:
Lafleur.: 1.66
Dionne..: 1.45
Trottier: 1.36

Goal per games
Lafleur.: .71
Dionne..: .61
Trottier: .51

Playoff
Lafleur.: 1.53 ppg
Sittler.: 1.23
Linseman: 1.20
Dionne..: 0.96

Is offensive output was a clean step above everyone else in the league, absolute and per game during his peak, Soviet not there, Orr injured, great puck moving defenseman on his team for sure, but he did it and no MTL Canadians were any close in that regard:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Either quite old by then (Cournoyer-Mahovlich) or not that special offensively for forward. Really good, all around more than that (Lemaire), but not special offensively raking numbers type.

Maybe one day we will adjust 2020s resume even more that we already do (maybe it will take time for people to appreciate a 32), we already adjust a lot or it would not even be a conversation.

Fair points but Lafleur was in the sweet spot in between Orr and Gretzky and the linemates and Dmen that Dionne had can account for some of the difference in scoring IMO.

As for your last line Draisaitl has 7 elite seasons compared to Guy's 6 that's why it's a conversation and Leon also arguably has as good if not better playoff resume as an individual player, SC's aside right?

 

[MadLuke]

As for your last line Draisaitl has 7 elite seasons compared to Guy's 6 that's why it's a conversation and Leon also arguably has as good if not better playoff resume as an individual player, SC's aside right?

Yes for who was the best player, not for who had the best resume (or maybe we have a different word for what resume mean here ?, which I take to be a list of accomplishment... which teammate can help you doing them, for some accomplishment you need them to)

Draisaitl > Lafleur argument one would build right now, could not be made by claiming that he has a better resume at the moment, it would rely around saying he is an better hockey player and explaining why without using Top 10 finish/Art Ross/Cups/junior-Intl career/ppg dominance over respective peers accomplishment type of things.

 

[wetcoast]

Yes for who was the best player, not for who had the best resume (or maybe we have a different word for what resume mean here ?, which I take to be a list of accomplishment... which teammate can help you doing them, for some accomplishment you need them to)

Well maybe we have been arguing direct things here as best player for me is all time rankings but if one is arguing best consecutive 6 year peak...it's still close IMO.

Also team accomplishments then muddies the waters, is Jacques Lemaire a better player than Draisaitl as well now?

I ask this as someone who probably ranks Lemaire higher than some here.

Draisaitl > Lafleur argument one would build right now, could not be made by claiming that he has a better resume at the moment, it would rely around saying he is an better hockey player and explaining why without using Top 10 finish/Art Ross/Cups/junior-Intl career/ppg dominance over respective peers accomplishment type of things.

Why not?

One could use the elite seasons and context and playoff resume straight up for prime argument and sure Draisaitl has to round out his career but the majority of the case for Lafleur is in those 6 years, he comparatively adds very little towards his ultimate ranking with the outside stuff.

Even if one thinks Lafleur is ahead right now at some point the current 7 will be 8, 9, 10 or maybe more and too much one would think.

Also it's really hard to argue that Lafleur has any edge in the playoffs here as an induvial player right?

 

[MadLuke]

Why not?

Because Drai does not have a better list of accomplishment ?

Also it's really hard to argue that Lafleur has any edge in the playoffs here as an induvial player right?

not in playoff resume too, here I am not the one that want to use their respective resume.... lafleur led the playoff in scoring 3 years in row, while winnig the cup (that is an extremely impressive playoff resume, not many non Gretzky/non Mtl Canadian player has a clearly better one than Lafleur).

75-79 playoff era

Lafleur: 48 goals -106 pts
Lemaire: 32 goals - 74 pts
Shutt..: 29 goals - 68 pts
Ratelle: 24 goals - 62 pts

Goal per games
Lafleur : 0.7
Leach...: 0.6
MacLeish: 0.48

PPG
Lafleur.: 1.54
sittler.: 1.24
Ratelle.: 1.13
Shutt...: 1.10
MacLeish: 1.09

You can say it was boosted by the era/teams and we should not use their resume too much to compare them, for sure, but one had to play with McDavid here.. I would not feel bad for his teammate situation too much.

I think it is ok to say that players like Sakic-Lafleur-Messier-Bossy were put in incredible situation to shine and win (at somepoint), build resume, etc... but once they do it (4 cup in a row type) to not diminish it too much either, specially when they had to win against the Bruins of the Flyers and never not do it a single time.

 

[Staniowski]

When comparing Draisaitl, or Kucherov, or MacKinnon to Lafleur....the key question to ask is how many players in their primes right now are better than Lafleur was - better hockey players, not better resume.

When comparing across eras, that's what you need to do. There's a lot more talent in the NHL currently than there was in the '70s. Saying Lafleur is a bigger legend (in his time)is not really relevant.

That's why many of the Original Six guys get overrated, some of them vastly overrated; many people aren't able to identify the comparative levels of talent in different eras.

 

[MadLuke]

When comparing Draisaitl, or Kucherov, or MacKinnon to Lafleur....the key question to ask is how many players in their primes right now are better than Lafleur was - better hockey players, not better resume.

Exactly.. I am not sure why the focus on resume here (but I am not sure the poster is using the word like we tend to do either....)
If Orr stay healthy and playing with Kharlamov-Espo does it change, Lafleur resume or if Dionne/Lafleur switch place, of course it could.

Same goes if Makar somewhat ended up in Edmonton.,...

 

[Michael Farkas]

better hockey players, not better resume.

This is the key.

 

[wetcoast]

This is the key.

So better in absolute play and for how long?

I think different people are talking about slightly different things here sometimes and maybe that's the difference.

 

[Michael Farkas]

So better in absolute play and for how long?

I think different people are talking about slightly different things here sometimes and maybe that's the difference.

Yeah, my point needed more context, my apologies.

Your second point, first. Yes, I agree. I think folks are well within their right to have a different target. BUT, if you're going to have some bright lines about what's good and what's not, it has to have logical consistency. You can't just use it to try to "defeat" an adjacent player.

To the original question, divide and conquer to be reasonable: I think goalies are more misunderstood than the most, so the correlation between stats/awards and actual play is not as high as it is for skaters. But what I did for the goalie project was go through and watch anyone with X number of seasons in which they could reasonably be considered relevant. That way you're singing out of the same choir book as everyone else because everyone has some sort of "resume"...you eliminate guys that only had 1 or 2 seasons...and you're not sitting around watching Pekka Rautakallio Atlanta Flames games going, "ya know, what if he was in Housley's place..." haha

Way tougher for skaters than goalies because of the numbers, of course. But it would definitely be worth it in my opinion.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I don't think it's an all or nothing. I don't see the value in tossing away stats. They're records of what happened, but they have major limitations.

You need stats. You need video. You need the contemporary reports. Obviously you can't have all three for all eras, but if you rely too strongly on one segment you miss information.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Right, it's not all or nothing. No one has to go watch a defenseman with 3 points in 789 career games when making a list for the best 50 of all time or whatever...well, actually, you probably should because that's incredible longevity for so little productivity haha but yes, I don't disagree. Information is not bad.

 

[JackSlater]

Yeah, I think this board has collectively maxed out (or close to it) on the legs of the equation that it knows about...the newspapers, the award voting, any which way you can slice a stat, etc. And it's all a terrific amount of work. Now, I think it's time for the toughest part, it's time to check it...

Very true, and there is too much certainty, partly because a lot of the player comparisons are actually just resume comparisons.

As this pertains to Draisaitl, he never really blows me away when I watch him. It's quite possible that I am missing something but I am sometimes very surprised to see his totals based on what I saw myself. Also worth noting, for a resume comparison, is that it was clear that Drasaitl was going to get the Hart this year based on the media talk leading up to the last month of the season. He then missed some time and they scrambled into the kind of odd Hellebuyck decision, but a handful of games cost him the trophy. Which doesn't make Draisaitl better or worse, but is a big resume bullet point.