What does Draisaitl need to go down as the greatest ever number 2?

[jigglysquishy]

Draisaitl bested Kucherovs best regular season.

He really didn't.

Sure, they had the same amount of points, but the scoring environments were very different.

Kucherov had 133% the points of 10th. Next closest Lightning were at 98 and 92 points.

Draisaitl had 125% the points of 10th. Next closest Oilers were at 153 and 104 points.

Not only was the scoring itself higher in 2023 than 2019 (slightly), but the help from teammates is a different world.

I think they're close enough that you could argue either ahead.

 

[The Panther]

People here really can’t grasp the concept of sample size, can they?

Draisaitl had one great run. That does not equate with Kucherov putting up numbers that rank him among the legends of the sport over a decade’s worth of postseason performances. And that’s not even getting into the fact that Kucherov is the primary driver of his team’s offense while Draisaitl is the beneficiary of a better player. Again, Drai is a great player and he may well get there someday, but at the moment he is nowhere close to Kucherov’s accomplishments.

Disagree with all points.

 

[Neutrinos]

Jeez man, relax, I was just taking the opportunity to make a joke because you used the Toronto Maple Leafs' word of the week.

 

[Neutrinos]

Don't mind that...he thinks three versions of save percentage is the pinnacle of mathematics. It's not a worthwhile road go down. We all know (see, I can do it too) Cups have some degree of relevance - whether it's a lot or a little is up to the evaluator. As usual, most of the extreme sides of that valuation could be discounted as faulty...

Aww, you remembered!

 

[McFlash97]

People here really can’t grasp the concept of sample size, can they?

Draisaitl had one great run. That does not equate with Kucherov putting up numbers that rank him among the legends of the sport over a decade’s worth of postseason performances. And that’s not even getting into the fact that Kucherov is the primary driver of his team’s offense while Draisaitl is the beneficiary of a better player. Again, Drai is a great player and he may well get there someday, but at the moment he is nowhere close to Kucherov’s accomplishments.

Lol

Wait wait... so what would Kucherov be if McDavid played in Tampa... ? can't wait to see the response...

 

[McFlash97]

He really didn't.

Sure, they had the same amount of points, but the scoring environments were very different.

Kucherov had 133% the points of 10th. Next closest Lightning were at 98 and 92 points.

Draisaitl had 125% the points of 10th. Next closest Oilers were at 153 and 104 points.

Not only was the scoring itself higher in 2023 than 2019 (slightly), but the help from teammates is a different world.

I think they're close enough that you could argue either ahead.

Draisaitl was better. Don't kid yourself, he had more goals, higher ppg, better faceoffs, more physical, better puck protection, bigger, 5 time 50 plus goal scorer, 3 plus times he has had over 50 goals and 50 assists in a season.

Thanks for coming out.

 

[AndreRoy]

Lol

Wait wait... so what would Kucherov be if McDavid played in Tampa... ? can't wait to see the response...

Make a post worthy of response and you might get one. Hint: rudeness and sarcastic laughter don’t qualify; some semblance of intelligence and rational discourse do.

 

[McFlash97]

Make a post worthy of response and you might get one. Hint: rudeness and sarcastic laughter don’t qualify; some semblance of intelligence and rational discourse do.

When posters run out of basic logic, they tend to start calling fellow posters rude, unintelligent and irrational.

I asked a question. Why don't you answer that.

If McDavid was on Kucherovs team, who would be the man on that team. Please go ahead since you were so quick to dismiss a superior talent.

 

[Sentinel]

If McDavid is injured and Draisaitl carries the team like Malkin and Fedorov did.

 

[Michael Farkas]

If McDavid is injured and Draisaitl carries the team like Malkin and Fedorov did.

Not much evidence of that yet...Draisaitl has 56 points and a -17 in 86 games without McDavid I believe...

So that means...
Without McDavid: 0.65 pts/gm, -17
With McDavid: 1.24 pts/gm, +46

Hopefully we don't learn where this one goes because I want uninjured McDavid time as a fan of sport...but as of now, there isn't a good case for the quoted...

 

[seventieslord]

Not much evidence of that yet...Draisaitl has 56 points and a -17 in 86 games without McDavid I believe...

So that means...
Without McDavid: 0.65 pts/gm, -17
With McDavid: 1.24 pts/gm, +46

Hopefully we don't learn where this one goes because I want uninjured McDavid time as a fan of sport...but as of now, there isn't a good case for the quoted...

That's primarily from 2015-16 though, isn't it? When Draisaitl was just a 50 point player and Edmonton was bad.

What are the numbers from the seven seasons since?

(I'm not suggesting that these numbers would disprove the point you're making, but we should at least be fair)

 

[Staniowski]

Not much evidence of that yet...Draisaitl has 56 points and a -17 in 86 games without McDavid I believe...

So that means...
Without McDavid: 0.65 pts/gm, -17
With McDavid: 1.24 pts/gm, +46

Hopefully we don't learn where this one goes because I want uninjured McDavid time as a fan of sport...but as of now, there isn't a good case for the quoted...

Yeah, your numbers are wacky....Draisaitl has scored very significantly better in games without McDavid than he has with McDavid.

Of course, obviously, that doesn't mean the Oilers would be carried to better results if McDavid wasn't playing...we can assume the team would be worse.
------------------------
Similar with Esposito....he usually scored the same whether Orr was playing or not.

And same with Malkin....he generally scored more when Crosby wasn't playing.

 

[jigglysquishy]

McDavid has only missed 13 games since 2016. It's an incredibly small sample size.

 

[sr edler]

Draisaitl passes the eye-test with me. He's aesthetically pleasing and visibly cranks it up in the post-season. Yeah, he's a bit suspect defensively but so is Stamkos and Kane and Kucherov and Ovi and McDavid and Pastrnak and many others, so not sure why he should be singled out.

By the way, does anyone from back in the days remember if Jagr was ever labeled (or perceived) as a "product" of Lemieux when the two played together in Pittsburgh?

 

[JackSlater]

Draisaitl passes the eye-test with me. He's aesthetically pleasing and visibly cranks it up in the post-season. Yeah, he's a bit suspect defensively but so is Stamkos and Kane and Kucherov and Ovi and McDavid and Pastrnak and many others, so not sure why he should be singled out.

By the way, does anyone from back in the days remember if Jagr was ever labeled (or perceived) as a "product" of Lemieux when the two played together in Pittsburgh?

Not really, Lemieux missed so much time that Jagr had ample time to demonstrate his ability apart from Lemieux. Much more of a protege to Lemieux than a product of Lemieux in the eyes of the public. Sometimes Lemieux's protege in a negative way as well.

I don't think I've ever pondered the possibility that Draisaitl is aesthetically pleasing. He's so boring but effective, though his hands are easy to appreciate. He's also going to get ripped more for defence because people associate defence with size to some degree and Draisaitl is bigger than the guys you mentioned outside of Ovechkin.

 

[sr edler]

I don't think I've ever pondered the possibility that Draisaitl is aesthetically pleasing. He's so boring but effective, though his hands are easy to appreciate

Yeah, I mean his hands and his playmaking, not that he skates like Fedorov or something.

He's also going to get ripped more for defence because people associate defence with size to some degree and Draisaitl is bigger than the guys you mentioned outside of Ovechkin.

I'm not sure this makes any sense, but okay. It would make more sense if they ripped him for it for being a C, but from what I understand the biggest issue defensively is when he's a winger on McDavid's line and they kinda float around together.

 

[buffalowing88]

The Kucherov fan boy-ing here is reminiscent of posts around this forum a decade ago about Jamie Benn. I don't know how well Kuch and that narrative is going to hold up in the long-term but I do know that Draisaitl isn't going anywhere.

 

[quietbruinfan]

There are several guys. I would rate above Drai. Harvey, Espo, Jagr, yes he was a strong 2 for a short period; Trottier, Robison, Messier. I very much prefer Makita and his one cup. Heck Drai does not have a cup so that opens it for tons of others like Martin, Barber number three but a very good one, Middelton etc etc etc etc. I am not a big Drai fan. His numbers are impressive, but his d is lacking. I suppose you could call him the Espo of wingers, but I would not go that far.

 

[Hockeyholic]

I'd put Draisaitl on the same "#2" list as Bill Barber (Behind B Clark).

 

[Overrated]

odds of him passing jagr are low maybe 10 percent

more like 0%

Although I don't consider Jagr as a clear #2. It's pretty obvious that in the last two Lemieux's years before retiring Jagr was already viewed as the next big thing and not just a sidekick to a superior player.

He might have a shot being ranked above Messier, Mikita and Malkin though.

 

[GoldenKnight]

Draisaitl is playing with a special (read: big 5) talent, and was often on the same line at both PP and ES (unlike Crosby/Malkin). He is also playing relatively poorly in his own zone, while producing good numbers in a very high scoring era.

He has a lot more to do before ranking up there with the likes of Malkin and Esposito. Another Art Ross or two would be a good start, along with continued solid playoff performances well into his 30s.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i ran the draisaitl without mcdavid numbers a year and a half ago —

small samples are small, but i was curious how it played out so here are the all the games drai has played with mcdavid out of the lineup since he broke out as a star scorer in 2017 —

12/03/18 - 1 assist (garbage time assist in a 4-1 loss)
2/19/19 - 2 assists (both assists in a 3-2 OTL, including a primary on RNH's tying goal with 11 seconds left)
2/23/19 - 1 assist (primary on gagner's eventual GWG in a 2-1 win)
2/25/19 - 2 goals (both goals in a 3-2 shootout loss)

six games, 2/11/20 – 2/21/20 - 4 goals, 8 assists (3-2-1 record, 4 points in a 5-3 win, primary assist on RNH's GWG; lone assist in a 3-1 loss; 2 points including the eventual GWG in a 4-1 win; 3 points in a 4-3 win including the primary assist on josh archibald's OT winner; shutout in a 2-1 loss; 2 points in a 5-3 loss that included a late EN)
3/9/20 - 0 points (3-2 OTL)

so in total that's 11 games, 6 goals, 12 assists, 18 points (45 goal, 89 assist, 134 point/82 pace)

extrapolate that points/game ratio over a full season in those two years and it's a clear art ross win in both years, topping kuch by six points in 2020 (actual drai finished fourth) and besting his own MVP self by two points in 2021.

i think more importantly, you can see how central he is to edmonton's chances at winning in those games. in 18-19, they go .500 with mcd out of the lineup and draisaitl accounts for 5 out of their 6 goals in the three games they picked up points. in 19-20, they're slightly above .500 with mcd out, 12 out of his team's 20 points and was in on 9 out of 12 goals in the three wins).

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

If I recall correctly, in order to be the greatest number 2 (as per South Park), Draisatl will have to crunch out a poop that is over 100 courics in size.

 

[The Panther]

Not much evidence of that yet...Draisaitl has 56 points and a -17 in 86 games without McDavid I believe...

So that means...
Without McDavid: 0.65 pts/gm, -17
With McDavid: 1.24 pts/gm, +46

Hopefully we don't learn where this one goes because I want uninjured McDavid time as a fan of sport...but as of now, there isn't a good case for the quoted...

This is a silly post. More than 75% of Draisaitl's games without McDavid are in Drai's rookie year, when the Oilers were the worst team in the League and Drai was 18-19 years old, and in Draisaitl's second year, when the Oilers were again last in the Pacific.

What matters is that there have been significant and multiple stretches where Drai has out-performed McDavid. These include the 2017 playoffs, the entire 2019-20 season, the first quarter of the 2021-22 season, and the past six weeks, including the 2023 playoffs so far.

Jagr didn't beat Lemieux in scoring and for Hart trophies when they were playing together. Draisaitl has 'beaten' McDavid for a scoring title and Hart trophy while they played together.

 

[Boxscore]

I don't see him approaching Espo unless the Oil win a Cup and he continues this miracle run. Also, if we're factoring intangibles, he doesn't touch Messier. Even Malkin is tough.