Speculation: What do YOU want to DO with #TWO?

[KINGS17]

Do you think Byfield has superior skating speed and change of direction when compared to Stutzle? I think it is arguable that Byfield has a faster top end speed, but I think Stutzle has a clear advantage agilitywise.

I will give the edge to Stutzle regarding agility. It is also a very minor point in my overall evaluation, because Byfield still has very good agility. Byfield's superior shot and size make him the #2 pick overall for me.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm not a guru. Frankly I'm a below average hockey guy. I'm no scout. However, I've never missed a game since 2003 and I'd wager I've seen enough pros and cons clips, plus the big games that he's been involved in live.

I'm just petrified of guys that look like they are thinking out there. Yes, he's 7 months younger than the average draft eligible player but hockey Iq is something that you know from a very early age.

Again, I'm 50/50 here.

If a guy is scoring often on the rush, it doesn't sound like he's overthinking much on the ice. Being offensively gifted is also a part of hockey IQ. Luc wasn't know for his defensive prowess, but he sure as hell knew to be in the right position at the right time quite often.

I think some of the armchair scouts are doing the overthinking in trying to find flaws. I've been trumpeting Stutzle for months, but I also didn't envision to Kings to be in a position to draft Byfield.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

You can't teach what's in the head. The ability to think through pressure and predict pressure is the sole skill that separates good from great players. I don't think he will be GREAT. I want a guy who has the best chance of being elite. I'm 50/50 as to who is number two.

I have a real issue that I cannot find one person who will say on the record that Byfield has low hockey IQ, and I sure don't see it. It's always "some scouts say" while others say it's high and/or his best trait.

If you can find one that'll sign their name to it, I'm all ears. I take real issue with it because yeah, anyone would look sloppy on the team he was on and in his limited team canada minutes.

And even with all those issues--he had a historic production season on a shit team, which is a real accomplishment since just about everyone on that list had a duo or a whole line of people with similar production.

I have no problem with people picking stutzle but like i said i do have a problem with people talking themselves out of byfield while ignoring stutzle has his own set of issues to work on too.

 

[Rusty Batch]

Remember when people are using those critiques, they are comparing him to the elite. They are saying that relative to the other high end prospects he is lacking in these departments. I think there is pretty widespread belief that he is in the 2nd tier of prospects along with Stutzle, I don't think that is a slight at all. Also, since you are talking about production, do you think that Rossi should be in consideration for 2nd overall? His production was even beyond QB last season.

In regards to Rossi. He is another one of these guys that is basically a full year older than Byfield. So if I look at Rossi last season compared to Byfield this season. Which is much more similar in age. Then yes Byfield is better statistically. Also even just comparing this season where Rossi is much older Byfield has more primary points per game than Rossi. Rossi is also on a much more talented team making it easier to score points

But all of that ignores the obvious gap in physical talent between Rossi and Byfield. And that is a big factor for me.

 

[crassbonanza]

I will give the edge to Stutzle regarding agility. It is also a very minor point in my overall evaluation, because Byfield still has very good agility. Byfield's superior shot and size make him the #2 pick overall for me.

See, I can see both sides for number 2. Stutzle has the superior agility, skating and hands. While Byfield has the superior size and shot, as well as being from a traditional development system. Stutzle's weak shot does concern me the most of any aspect from both prospects, but if he puts that together I think he can be an Art Ross guy.

 

[crassbonanza]

In regards to Rossi. He is another one of these guys that is basically a full year older than Byfield. So if I look at Rossi last season compared to Byfield this season. Which is much more similar in age. Then yes Byfield is better statistically. Also even just comparing this season where Rossi is much older Byfield has more primary points per game than Rossi. Rossi is also on a much more talented team making it easier to score points

But all of that ignores the obvious gap in physical talent between Rossi and Byfield. And that is a big factor for me.

I mean, age is a factor, but developmental years are also a factor. You can't compare D-2 seasons to D-1 seasons across the board, which I think a lot of people tend to do when comparing Byfield since he is so young. My point about Rossi though is that he had one of the best CHL seasons of all time, so if production is a reason to overlook any critiques, then we should also be focusing on him.

Again, let me reiterate that I would be happy with either prospect, but I can recognize that there are pros and cons with each prospect and don't think the gap is as big as many people on here imagine. It does seem like I am essentially alone with this thought, so please don't take any of my Stutzle defending as trying to be negative about QB, because I love him as a prospect.

 

[funky]

I take Byfield by a hair. Not sold on Stützle’s shooting ability but love everything else about the German prospect. Byfield’s youth, size, skating and skill is so unique. Can’t pass that up. Can’t ever have enough centers.

Next year I predict we get another top 10 pick. It will be a better year but I think we are a year away from looking dangerous again.

this year was garbage. Highlights are now our lottery win, the emergence of Roy and the health of Vilardi.

low lights are our vets cashing it in, Kupari blowing a knee in a crucial year and Turcotte having a rough D2.

I mention this as two of the low lights are 2 of our Center prospects. I expect a bounce back from Turcotte but Kupari’s greatest asset is his speed.

I say take the true center. Take the guy that some compare to Kopitar/ Malkin. Solidify the center position. If Vilardi can’t handle center can you imagine that super skilled bull on the wings with Kopitar or Byfield. That would be a nightmare.

 

[cyclones22]

I take Byfield by a hair. Not sold on Stützle’s shooting ability but love everything else about the German prospect. Byfield’s youth, size, skating and skill is so unique. Can’t pass that up. Can’t ever have enough centers.

Next year I predict we get another top 10 pick. It will be a better year but I think we are a year away from looking dangerous again.

this year was garbage. Highlights are now our lottery win, the emergence of Roy and the health of Vilardi.

low lights are our vets cashing it in, Kupari blowing a knee in a crucial year and Turcotte having a rough D2.

I mention this as two of the low lights are 2 of our Center prospects. I expect a bounce back from Turcotte but Kupari’s greatest asset is his speed.

I say take the true center. Take the guy that some compare to Kopitar/ Malkin. Solidify the center position. If Vilardi can’t handle center can you imagine that super skilled bull on the wings with Kopitar or Byfield. That would be a nightmare.

Agree with everything here for the most part. I think what people have a tendency to do re: Byfield and Stutlze is compare their skillsets against each other, which is understandable. But it's apples and oranges to an extent. What people need to do more is compare Byfield to other 17 year old big centers historically. Then get back and form your opinions. What he's doing on the ice for a player of his physical profile is ridiculously RARE. Find me a player in the past of that size and age who skated like he does. Who was as agile as he is. Had the hands he does. His athleticism is unique for his size. You can't discount his measurables as it's part of the package. I'm tired of reading (not necessarily on this board) that well, if Byfield weren't 6'4 he'd be top 10 at best! If Shaq were 6'5 he would've been a journeyman NBA player instead of the HOF. It's a silly hypothetical. Anyway, next week I'll likely be writing some dissertation about how Stutzle is the Next Peter Forsberg so we shouldn't discount him because we've got way too much time to dare to dream before draft day.

Quick thing about Turcotte, I'm not worried about him at all. Through the lens of of looking at the season ending stats, he had a pretty good season for a freshman, but you would expect more from a Top 5 pick. That being said, upon further inspection, he had a shitty 10 game run in the middle of the season where he scored 1 point. Whether it can be attributed to illness, injury, team discord, loss of confidence, whatever it was a bad 10 game stretch. Let's just agree on that. But that was sandwiched between 15 freaking points in his first 10 games and 10 points in his last 7 before Wisconsin laid down vs Ohio State in the B1G 10 Tournament. Snippet from The Athletic after Turcotte signed:

--Mark Yannetti, the Kings’ director of amateur scouting, was reassured by the way Turcotte finished the regular season.
“He looked really good the last three weeks of the season,” Yannetti said. “His game started to approach what it was the first quarter of the season. We break the season into quarters. The first quarter (of) Turcotte’s season was dynamic. His first quarter was better than any drafted college player, any player his age in college.
“It wasn’t close for me.”

So I'm not looking for a bounce back from Turcotte. I'm looking for a continuation of where he left off. He returned to form in the same season.

 

[crassbonanza]

Find me a player in the past of that size and age who skated like he does.

Jesse Puljujarvi is about the same size and could absolutely fly when he got up to speed. I think he was 6'4" and 200 pounds coming into his draft year, for reference I believe Byfield is 6'4" and 210.

Not saying they are the same player at all, but he is the last prospect I can remember with the same combo of size and skill.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Alright, here, let me piss you guys off about Stutzle.

His shot is barely better than Derek Forbort's. He has 7 goals in a league where Jeff Zatkoff is among the best goaltenders and the defensemen may as well be OHL players.

He goes down upon contact that's a little stronger than a sneeze. NHL d-men aren't just going to abdicate the middle.

He has all sorts of time on the big ice, so his taking laps with the puck is easier to pull off. NHL d-men aren't going to just let him cycle indefinitely.

WJC doesn't matter.

He makes a lot of soft turnovers as a result of stickhandling and forcing passes. If anyone even gets a stick on his, the puck is gone.


....and if all of the above sounds like bullshit and like I'm going in too hard on him realize that's exactly how people are going in hard on Byfield. It's satire. I don't understand why risers are so immune from criticism. No one wants to say bad words about Stutzle, Jarvis, Sanderson because they're too busy being excited about the good qualities while guys like Byfield and Drysdale are absolute shit magnets.

Both players have warts, yet both are elite prospects with minor things to work on.

 

[crassbonanza]

Alright, here, let me piss you guys off about Stutzle.

His shot is barely better than Derek Forbort's. He has 7 goals in a league where Jeff Zatkoff is among the best goaltenders and the defensemen may as well be OHL players.

He goes down upon contact that's a little stronger than a sneeze. NHL d-men aren't just going to abdicate the middle.

He has all sorts of time on the big ice, so his taking laps with the puck is easier to pull off. NHL d-men aren't going to just let him cycle indefinitely.

WJC doesn't matter.

He makes a lot of soft turnovers as a result of stickhandling and forcing passes. If anyone even gets a stick on his, the puck is gone.


....and if all of the above sounds like bullshit and like I'm going in too hard on him realize that's exactly how people are going in hard on Byfield. It's satire. I don't understand why risers are so immune from criticism. No one wants to say bad words about Stutzle, Jarvis, Sanderson because they're too busy being excited about the good qualities while guys like Byfield and Drysdale are absolute shit magnets.

Both players have warts, yet both are elite prospects with minor things to work on.

Dude, absolutely no one is going hard on Byfield in this or any other Kings board thread. What are you on about? It is damn near unanimous support for Byfield with every one in here ripping Stutzle a new one. Your "satire" is basically what every one in here is saying about Stutzle. Like, seriously go read all of the threads. Find me one piece of hard criticism where people are throwing around hyperboles with regards to Byfield. I don't understand where you are seeing this Stutzle support and people ripping Byfield.

I have been defending Stutzle because it has been so one sided here and I don't think Stutzle deserves the shit he has been getting.

 

[King'sPawn]

I have a real issue that I cannot find one person who will say on the record that Byfield has low hockey IQ, and I sure don't see it. It's always "some scouts say" while others say it's high and/or his best trait.

If you can find one that'll sign their name to it, I'm all ears. I take real issue with it because yeah, anyone would look sloppy on the team he was on and in his limited team canada minutes.

And even with all those issues--he had a historic production season on a shit team, which is a real accomplishment since just about everyone on that list had a duo or a whole line of people with similar production.

I have no problem with people picking stutzle but like i said i do have a problem with people talking themselves out of byfield while ignoring stutzle has his own set of issues to work on too.

Hockey Prospect's Black Book breaks down Byfield's hockey sense extensively. They gave him a 6 on a scale of 3-9. I'm using my phone, so I'll give the details later.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Dude, absolutely no one is going hard on Byfield in this or any other Kings board thread. What are you on about? It is damn near unanimous support for Byfield with every one in here ripping Stutzle a nerw f***ing asshole. Your "satire" is basically what every one in here is saying about Stutzle. Like, seriously go read all of the f***ing threads. Find me one piece of hard criticism where people are throwing around hyperboles with regards to Byfield. I don't understand where you are seeing this Stutzle support and people ripping Byfield.

I have been defending Stutzle because it has been so one sided here and I don't think Stutzle deserves the shit he has been getting.

Like you said there are at least 3 strong threads going re: the subject and in just the last 100 posts in here you can read that Byfield is an unfixable prospect because of low IQ and he's only a productive transition player that's a high risk.

We're talking about the 2 pretty consensus best players outside of Laf in the draft and pretty much the only reason Laf is above them is he's pretty complete, both of these guys have flaws (I wouldn't even so much call them flaws as development opportunities) and insanely high ceilings.

You're only seeing Stutzle criticism because you're only defending against Stutzle critcism.

 

[crassbonanza]

and in just the last 100 posts in here you can read that Byfield is an unfixable prospect because of low IQ

I read through this whole thread and didn't see that at all. I read one person say that they were concerned with regards to his hockey IQ, not accusing him of being unfixable, just mentioning that he had concerns. I read the entire rest of the thread talking about how Byfield is the superior prospect and I see a poll that only has 10% of the posters choosing Stutzle. I mean, go read some other threads and you will see people say that the only reason that Stutzle is being ranked second is because it is a conspiracy by the Canadian media to get him to fall to Ottawa. Other people have said it is prospect fatigue for Byfield. I mean, you yourself have been all over HF saying Byfield no matter what and accusing others of talking themselves out of Byfield. The Byfield support is so hard that people can't even acknowledge that Stutzle actually might be a good player who is a better player in certain areas.

How you can see all of that and act like anyone is going too hard on Byfield is beyond me. Like, do you want Stutzle to have 0% in the poll? Is 10% too much for you? Do you need unanimous support for Byfield?

I haven't voted because I don't know who I want more, I think they are both fantastic, but your victim complex is just beyond me.

 

[No Name The Nameless]

Dude, absolutely no one is going hard on Byfield in this or any other Kings board thread. What are you on about? It is damn near unanimous support for Byfield with every one in here ripping Stutzle a new one. Your "satire" is basically what every one in here is saying about Stutzle. Like, seriously go read all of the threads. Find me one piece of hard criticism where people are throwing around hyperboles with regards to Byfield. I don't understand where you are seeing this Stutzle support and people ripping Byfield.

I have been defending Stutzle because it has been so one sided here and I don't think Stutzle deserves the shit he has been getting.

I've been hard on him. I'm always wary of large guys who are a head larger than their competition during their early years in development. It's my own science

 

[Stimpythecat]

What does Hockey Prospects rate Stutzle?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I read through this whole thread and didn't see that at all. I read one person say that they were concerned with regards to his hockey IQ, not accusing him of being unfixable, just mentioning that he had concerns. I read the entire rest of the thread talking about how Byfield is the superior prospect and I see a poll that only has 10% of the posters choosing Stutzle. I mean, go read some other threads and you will see people say that the only reason that Stutzle is being ranked second is because it is a conspiracy by the Canadian media to get him to fall to Ottawa. Other people have said it is prospect fatigue for Byfield. I mean, you yourself have been all over HF saying Byfield no matter what and accusing others of talking themselves out of Byfield. The Byfield support is so hard that people can't even acknowledge that Stutzle actually might be a good player who is a better player in certain areas.

How you can see all of that and act like anyone is going too hard on Byfield is beyond me. Like, do you want Stutzle to have 0% in the poll? Is 10% too much for you? Do you need unanimous support for Byfield?

I haven't voted because I don't know who I want more, I think they are both fantastic, but your victim complex is just beyond me.

Not in the slightest, and I don't know how many times I have to point out that it's a tough decision and that these are guys in the same tier that at least for a long time I couldn't choose between on a minute-to-minute basis.

I just think it's hard to have discussion when people aren't willing as a group to acknowledge that both guys have things to work on and that what I've seen a lot of on the Kings board, HF in general, and certainly in the media is hard digs into Byfield and shallow digs on Stutzle. That's it. And I even used other prospects to illustrate that's not exclusively a Byfield-Stutzle thing, and that it's often a yearly draft ritual period. We're just in the unique position for once to take either guy and it's foolhardy to gloss over things.

 

[kilowatt]

Here’s a crazy idea: draft Byfield at 2, then trade Turcotte + Grundstrom + Clague to Ottawa for 3 and pick Stützle. Then we don’t even have to debate!

 

[crassbonanza]

I just think it's hard to have discussion when people aren't willing as a group to acknowledge that both guys have things to work on and that what I've seen a lot of on the Kings board, HF in general, and certainly in the media is hard digs into Byfield and shallow digs on Stutzle.

You know, I feel the same way, except in regards to Stutzle and I believe that is backed up by the overwhelming consensus. Anyone questioning anything regarding Byfield's game is met with a quick rebuke, while Stutzle is treated as a tier 3 prospect who would only be picked because Marco Sturm is the assistant coach. Pointing out flaws in someone's game when compared to other high end prospects is not taking digs. Saying that a guy is only in the conversation because of his nationality or because of a mass conspiracy is a dig.

 

[King'sPawn]

What does Hockey Prospects rate Stutzle?

In Hockey Sense, I think 8.

They rank Stutzle 2nd overall and Byfield 3rd

 

[KINGS17]

You know, I feel the same way, except in regards to Stutzle and I believe that is backed up by the overwhelming consensus. Anyone questioning anything regarding Byfield's game is met with a quick rebuke, while Stutzle is treated as a tier 3 prospect who would only be picked because Marco Sturm is the assistant coach. Pointing out flaws in someone's game when compared to other high end prospects is not taking digs. Saying that a guy is only in the conversation because of his nationality or because of a mass conspiracy is a dig.

Third tier? I don't think he is third tier, but in my estimation Stutzle is #3OA.

 

[johnjm22]

It's Byfield for me.

If you want to legitimately contend for a SC in this league you need a foundational center (or centers) anchoring your team. They're nearly impossible to acquire unless you draft them yourself.

We don't know if Vilardi or Turcotte can be that for us. Might as well add another prospect that has that potential. In doing so we increase the probabilities of ending up with that type of player.

Even if Byfield becomes Martin Hanzal, and Stuzle turns out to be Patrick Kane, I'd still defend the pick of Byfield because it's a swing for the fences.

A franchise gets extremely few opportunities to draft a player with the potential of Byfield. You have to take it when it falls into your lap.

 

[BigKing]

@crassbonanza

I generally see little criticism of Stutzle on HF. I feel like I see more reasons to not draft Byfield than to draft Stutzle based on Byfield being a higher ceiling pick while Stutzle seems safer.

 

[King'sPawn]

I have a real issue that I cannot find one person who will say on the record that Byfield has low hockey IQ, and I sure don't see it. It's always "some scouts say" while others say it's high and/or his best trait.

If you can find one that'll sign their name to it, I'm all ears. I take real issue with it because yeah, anyone would look sloppy on the team he was on and in his limited team canada minutes.

And even with all those issues--he had a historic production season on a shit team, which is a real accomplishment since just about everyone on that list had a duo or a whole line of people with similar production.

I have no problem with people picking stutzle but like i said i do have a problem with people talking themselves out of byfield while ignoring stutzle has his own set of issues to work on too.

Okay, so I'm going to summarize Hockey Prospect a little bit. I'm a big fan of their work, even when I don't 100% agree with their analysis.

First of all, they break the prospects down into 5 categories: Hockey Sense, Compete, Skill, Skating, Misc. And each of those categories are subdivided as below.
Hockey Sense is Decision making, anticipation, playmaking/vision, deception, processing speed, spatial awareness, creativity, tempo
Compete is Work Ethic, Attack the Net, Consistency, First on Pucks, Backcheck, Shot Blocking, Playing Inside, Toughness
Skill is Shot Power, Shot Release, Shot Accuracy, Puck Protection, Passing, Stickhandling, Scoring Ability
Skating is Quickness, Balance, Speed, Mobility, Mechanics, Backwards
Misc. is Height, Weight, Strength, Endurance, Athleticism

Each prospect is graded on a scale of 3-9. This is a system done by an NHL team; so this is all presented as if they were an NHL franchise.

With that said, here's how Byfield/Stutzle are broken down:
Hockey Sense: Byfield 6, Stuzle 8
Compete: Byfield 8, Stutzle 8
Skill: Byfield 8, Stutzle 9
Skating: Byfield 8, Stutzle 9
Misc: Byfield 9, Stutzle 7

Regarding Byfield's hockey sense, I'll highlight the key points (the PDF download is 758 pages, and Byfield has 13 paragraphs on him, and I'm not going to write it all out.
- His vision is his strongest asset for his hockey sense. They say he sees the ice at a very good level, which allows him to be threatening in stand still or transitional play.
- His anticipation is another impressive asset for his hockey sense and vision.
- Finally, his spatial awareness is another strong aspect. Basically, his vision, anticipation, and spatial awareness have really good cohesion which makes him a consistent threat.
- They feel his ability to process a developing play is not a strength. They don't even say it's bad, but for every few he processes correctly, he processes the next one incorrectly. It's this inconsistency where they question his upside of driving lines.
- They question his decision making. It's very inconsistent. They tried to factor in he's playing big minutes (the shift-by-shift videos I've watched have him between 20-28 minutes).
- They feel his inability to adapt to the faster speed of playing against international competition affected his production. The faster the pace, the worst the decisions became.
- They had mixed feelings on his ability to control the pace of a game.
- He's very inconsistent with his deception (head fakes, shifts in edge work, etc).

These are pointed criticisms about Byfield's hockey sense from an independent scouting service. A "6" rating is considered "good." Some of their criticisms of it can be tied to inconsistency (which is normal for a prospect) as well as fatigue.

With Stutzle, here are a few things they said about him:
- They think he's a line driver who can take over the game and process developing plays very quickly
- He has game breaking instincts
- He controls the tempo.

There's quite a bit more, but they mix it in with various other toolsets.

They don't hide how much they like Stutzle. The only criticism they have of his game isn't that he has a bad shot, but that he doesn't use it enough. And that he was bad in previous seasons.

I only bring this up because while I am a fan of their work, I don't think they are exempt of criticism of perhaps over evaluating a player or not providing specific criticisms. They don't even say why his Misc. score is "only" a 7, and the only remark they had about his physical stature is "as he continues to develop physically".

 

[kilowatt]

Guys I keep flipping back and forth. I’m leaning towards Stützle at the moment.