Those stats don't really reflect his play IMO.
His takeaway/giveaway ratio dropped a bunch and his +/- was way off. The 2 seasons after the 2015 Cup were still very good Hawks teams
What do you think happened with Toews after 2015?
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His takeaway/giveaway ratio dropped a bunch and his +/- was way off. The 2 seasons after the 2015 Cup were still very good Hawks teams
No Fun Shogun
34-38-61-10-13-15
If you want to say he got worse in the years that followed, that’s fine, but the point is that his production remained mostly level and his pretty inarguably best full season was still years after Machu Picchu. That all doesn’t gel with an idea that some unnamed Peruvian thing was the cause, especially when the clearest drop off for him happened after Covid.
He basically had an extra season or two under his belt, had concussion issues, and has been open about his long covid situation. Inventing a mystery thing when multiple far more applicable and identifiable issues were to blame seems more narrative pushing than anything.
Plus, loads of people go to Peru every year, and we aren’t hearing of statistically significant health issues arising from that tourist block. Even if hard to pinpoint, we’d absolutely know if there was a major health issue sapping people after visiting the region.
He basically had an extra season or two under his belt, had concussion issues, and has been open about his long covid situation. Inventing a mystery thing when multiple far more applicable and identifiable issues were to blame seems more narrative pushing than anything.
Plus, loads of people go to Peru every year, and we aren’t hearing of statistically significant health issues arising from that tourist block. Even if hard to pinpoint, we’d absolutely know if there was a major health issue sapping people after visiting the region.
I have another theory.
Evo Ultrafit.
Zach Parise was another hockey player that used this bullshit, and he fell apart right around the same time as Toews.
Evo Ultrafit.
Zach Parise was another hockey player that used this bullshit, and he fell apart right around the same time as Toews.
Guys like Toews and Seabrook played a lot of hard mins going to battle in the dirty areas. Those guys don’t tend to age well after 30. Some concussions for both and a laundry list of other injuries for Seabrook is why both fell off a cliff.
Keith was with age and a ton of miles. We ran him into the ground for years and the old warhorse finally wore down
Keith was with age and a ton of miles. We ran him into the ground for years and the old warhorse finally wore down
Duncan Keith had a longer than normal career in his prime, though. Toews fell apart before 30....
Malaka
you know, **** it, let’s just not think so much
Seabrook got annihilated by terry's hip procedure. He's not specialized in the joint area and uses a very conservative measure that doesn't remove impingement for sake of maintaining femoral head/neck integrity with concerns of fracture, avoiding avascular necrosis, nerve damage, instability relevant to unnatural biomechanics, and more but his approach is really a consideration of defensive doctoring. I'm not Monday quarterbacking him as a surgeon, either, this is reality. While the procedure of FAI repair is not well supported for long term outcomes beyond his half-ass approach, where the results are nominal(~10% increase in satisfaction/functional assessment) compared to people who don't undergo the procedure, at the very least if you are going to do it you want to remove the cam/pincer impingement, otherwise the cartilage even if replaced with an allograft will continue to deteriorate. This sort of negligence led to Seabrook not being able to walk a year post-op.
If he was good at managing the condition of hip impingement, neither Kane or Seabs after the fact would have gone to a guy who specializes in hip resurfacing. Maybe Terry is a good surgeon for knees, shoulders, elbows or other orthopedics etc, maybe he knows the surgery in question is bunk and he tries to keep as much bone possible to prepare for inevitable resurfacing/replacement, I can't exactly speak for him. I just know people personally with similar experiences and they are not an n=1.
https://theathletic.com/4123084/2023/01/25/brent-seabrook-chicago-blackhawks-vancouver-giants/
“I couldn’t walk,” Seabrook said. “I called Dr. Terry and said, ‘I can’t live like this.’”
“It was hard to skate and keep up,” Seabrook said. “Skating for three weeks prior and it was a battle. It just never really gave me anything. It never got better... “I’d wake up in the morning, I’d feel pretty good. I’d skate for five minutes and it would lock up and I couldn’t push or pivot or turn."
Bottom line f*** Terry and the team medical staff. They should have been fired or worse faced a medical review board for allowing Crawford to get hooked on opiates too, and further in letting our stars like toews/kane and even hossa's careers be at jeopardy or face end.
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I agree about their medical staff. I've heard a lot of shit, as well. And we've all seen concussions and injuries mismanaged.
WarriorofTime
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Mostly speculation but I think Toews was playing through concussions and all the long playoff runs took their toll.
Even to this day, the NHL Concussion Protocol is a bit of a joke and it feels like run by dinosaurs. Unless someone has their own people looking at them or the willingness to say "no, I'm not in a condition to play" I think there's still a lot "just get back out there and champ it out" mentality.
Even to this day, the NHL Concussion Protocol is a bit of a joke and it feels like run by dinosaurs. Unless someone has their own people looking at them or the willingness to say "no, I'm not in a condition to play" I think there's still a lot "just get back out there and champ it out" mentality.
Players at all levels intentionally do poorly on their baseline concussion tests, so they don't miss time. It's been happening forever. The concussion protocol is absolutely a joke, and that applies to most sports.
No Fun Shogun
34-38-61-10-13-15
Not all people are wired or recover the same. Keith’s example was atypical.
A simple, transparent presser at that time would have headed off any speculation but they chose not to go that route.
featherhawk
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- Dec 13, 2006
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Agreed and I can empathize as I also have a damaged brain. Many diagnosed and undiagnosed concussions, most prior to Doctors being able to give the diagnosis of what is now CTE.
Captain had a few that we know of.
Add in the way he played the game and the playoff and team canada mileage added to his NHL career.
Add in the immune diagnosis/long covid.
Add in 3 cups and accolades galore.
Add in financial security.
I am sure that I am missing some.
It's easy to see why Captain had a difficult time being able to practice/play.
As @No Fun Shogun indicates with the stats above, Captain was productive.
He is a legend, Captain peeked early in his career and guess what, his career ended early.
Remember it's a job just like most of us have. If I reached the peak of my profession, accomplished a great deal of what I could, had made millions for my family to never have to worry about money again...I would retire if I had the opportunity to do so...
What I do find odd is that Captain has not yet announced his retirement but that really does matter in the end.
Enjoy post hockey life Captain!
GIADF
Not A Mod
- Aug 17, 2024
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It's his health and life and none of our business.
clydesdale line
Connor BeJesus
- Jan 10, 2012
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Keith had bionic lungs. Dude was always at the top of the charts in overall fitness testing but especially VO2 testing. There's a reason why people called him a robot. He is the outlier.
hockeydoug
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- May 26, 2012
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Age, mileage, whole team was slower. Not many humans can play any sport for as many hours a month from a young age as Toews did. Still freaky to play 800-900pro games at a near elite level.
Have to agree with OP that as much as he has given the franchise, he did get the respect he deserved and no further is warranted. You can win 3 cups yet when you make that kind of money, more is expected of you. Same with Keith, Seabrook, anyone. Any managers on this thread? Do you expect more out of your 125K employee than your 88K employee? I sure hope so. Kane of equal contract wasn't perfect, but he did produce more. The "leadership" tag helps Toews, but can only go so far. And to not name a Captain to last year's team "out of respect" to Toews was not Toews' fault, but sure was odd at best and just plain un-necessary. Since when do teams take a year off in naming a Captain when their predecessor is not there?
I asked my doctor more than once, the diagnosis he was given was B.S. and is controversial at best among physicians. Long covid makes more sense but if it was that, he should have had doctors say so. And as far as contracting some virus in Peru or Chicago or the local Winnipeg grocery store, that's all speculation with absolutely not an ounce of proof. If we allowed causality to be proven simply based on timing, half the population would be in jail. No idea if he lost heart, drive, or was truly ill. One thing for sure is he was great, which I thank him for, and he disappointed the last few years of his contract with an enormously painful cap hit.
I asked my doctor more than once, the diagnosis he was given was B.S. and is controversial at best among physicians. Long covid makes more sense but if it was that, he should have had doctors say so. And as far as contracting some virus in Peru or Chicago or the local Winnipeg grocery store, that's all speculation with absolutely not an ounce of proof. If we allowed causality to be proven simply based on timing, half the population would be in jail. No idea if he lost heart, drive, or was truly ill. One thing for sure is he was great, which I thank him for, and he disappointed the last few years of his contract with an enormously painful cap hit.
- Aug 24, 2011
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That's not what I'm saying whatsoever. Yeah it would've been nice had he stayed healthy and kicked ass for another 3-4 years but for whatever reason that's not how it worked out. I don't begrudge the guy at all.
"no further is warranted" to me implies he could/should be under scrutiny for his dropoff in play which would be a disrespectful mistake IMO. He gave the Hawks his best and we got a dynasty out of it.
I made this thread because I was arguing in another thread about if Toews or Giroux was the better player. The poster was arguing for Giroux and one of his arguments was that Giroux has maintained good production much longer than Toews had. I'm not sure myself why Toews dropped off so hard so early but if I had to guess it's like I said in the OP, it's probably 90% his body was a wreck and 10% he lost the killer drive to play at that level when he'd already accomplished so much. It's unfortunate but I don't resent the guy whatsoever.
BobbyJet
The accountability era?
Sidney Crosby did it right. There was a lot of doubt he would ever return after taking so much time off from the game but he did it his way and when he felt well enough to return he came back as good as ever. There was a time when it seemed possible that Toews could do the same but that dream is over. It seems long covid took care of that possibility. In a way sad, but JT was smart enough to look at the big picture when it comes to his livelihood.
