What are the greatest Major Junior Careers of all time?

[JackSlater]

Perhaps I am the first to ask this but is anyone else wondering why Mike Richards was mentioned? I am okay with Brad Richards just because of his insane 2000 season but all three of his years in the QMJHL he was dominant. His draft year he has 115 points. Then 130, then 186. Richards was not a goal scorer, but he cracked 71 goals in 2000. Wow. There are others that were better of course but he did have an impressive run.

Okay, but back to Mike. Why Mike? He did win a Memorial Cup and a WJC. But so did Corey Perry, and to be honest Perry had a better junior career than Richards.

How about Ray Ferraro getting a bit of love here? A 108 goal and 192 point season in the WHL in his last year of junior. Correct me if this is inaccurate, but is Ferraro the only player in the juniors in Canada to score over 100 goals in a season outside of the QMJHL?

Let's not forget Bobby Orr here. 4 years in the OHL and his final season, when he's 17, he gets 94 points in 47 games. Two points per game for a defenseman and he's playing against 19 year olds.

A darkhorse is Daniel Briere.

But the answer here is Mario. Come on, how can it not be? 96, 184 and 282 points each year? The all-time CHL record in points in a single season. The all-time record in goals in a single season. The all-time record in assists in a single season (that is correct isn't it?). Anyway, wake me up if there is another player who gets 200 points in a single season in his draft year and we'll talk. And even then he'll still need 82 more. Sorry, but 4 points per game is unheard of.

Lastly, Patrice Lefebvre has some eye popping stats. He was 5'6" and I am guessing that was what hurt him, but how could he not even get drafted? He put up some huge numbers in the minors too. I also looked at his penalty minutes and he certainly was involved. Maybe he wasn't scrappy like Theo Fleury or anything but was it just his size that held him back? Because other guys who were 5'6" made the NHL.

This is overrating Lemieux. Lafontaine scored over 200 points in his draft year the season before, when as a 17 year old he outscored a 17 year old Lemieux. Had Lafontaine played in junior as an 18 year old, as Lemieux did, he very likely is at least right up there in scoring with him. Lemieux didn't lead the league in scoring as a 16 year old or as a 17 year old, and really he wasn't all that close. Won the QMJHL as an 18 year old, didn't win the Memorial Cup. Didn't win the WJC as a 17 year old but has a very good, though not great, tournament. Skipped the WJC as an 18 year old.

Lemieux gets credit for actually doing things that others might have done, but his case isn't exactly overwhelming outside of his gaudy scoring as an 18 year old in the 1980s Q of all leagues and eras. Great junior career, probably not the best. Lemieux has 0 case at all for best 16 or 17 year old seasons, and it isn't even close, and his 18 year old season is sort of an outlier given that only the draft cutoff kept him in junior.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think I’ve heard or read Mats Sundin mentioning Fogarty as one of the most talented players he’s come across.

Did you ever ‘scout’ him, how good was he and what do you think he could have been if not for the off-ice issues?

I think I gave a quick look to see if any junior footage existed, but I don't think he ever played in the Memorial Cup, so it's a long shot...if it existed, I'd definitely take a look.

 

[JMCx4]

I keep peeking in on this thread to see a self-nomination from Terry Ryan.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

This is overrating Lemieux. Lafontaine scored over 200 points in his draft year the season before, when as a 17 year old he outscored a 17 year old Lemieux. Had Lafontaine played in junior as an 18 year old, as Lemieux did, he very likely is at least right up there in scoring with him. Lemieux didn't lead the league in scoring as a 16 year old or as a 17 year old, and really he wasn't all that close. Won the QMJHL as an 18 year old, didn't win the Memorial Cup. Didn't win the WJC as a 17 year old but has a very good, though not great, tournament. Skipped the WJC as an 18 year old.

Lemieux gets credit for actually doing things that others might have done, but his case isn't exactly overwhelming outside of his gaudy scoring as an 18 year old in the 1980s Q of all leagues and eras. Great junior career, probably not the best. Lemieux has 0 case at all for best 16 or 17 year old seasons, and it isn't even close, and his 18 year old season is sort of an outlier given that only the draft cutoff kept him in junior.

Nobody has sniffed 282 points in CHL history. Theres no overating it. He is 30 points clear of anyone else

 

[MadLuke]

Nobody has sniffed 282 points in CHL history. Theres no overating it. He is 30 points clear of anyone else

People that would have did not play a third season in the highest scoring era of the Q too, like the message you quoted say, credit to have done it, but Crosby led the whole CHL draft-1 and draft year, is that inferior career to Mario doing it once in a third season because of the birth cut-off ? Lafontaine do what that season if he play again in the Q like Mario did ?

Was it greater than Lafleur 4 season career or Beliveau... Scoring changed a lot in 75 years.

Being 6 foot 5 while doing it made him a better prospect with more upside than already trained like a pro for a long time Crosby, but that a bit of a different question.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Crosby is better than Lemieux in terms of their Q careers. Not necessarily prospects (can't teach height), but in terms of actual pre-draft accomplishments.

Vs	Lemieux 1983-84	Crosby 2004-05
PPG	4.03	2.71
2	1.47	1.60
5	2.05	1.76
10	2.10	2.07
25	2.67	2.47

Considering season-on-season, Lemieux is 10 months older than Crosby.

Scoring was stupid high in the Q in the 80s. All the credit to Lemieux for putting up 280, but you need some context. In the season before, during, and after his draft 160 points was hit 9 times. There were 12 players in Lemieux's draft year over 1.9 PPG.

Pre 19th birthday, Crosby is at the very top of hockey players. Like, maybe only behind Gretzky. Hell, you could argue him ahead of Gretzky if you're using 19th birthday as a cut off.

 

[seventieslord]

Yes, Lemieux's QMJHL career is overrated if you look at raw points.

On an adjusted basis (compared to league average scoring), Crosby's D season was actually better. Especially when you consider he was 10 months younger than Lemieux was during his D season.

That said, Lemieux's D season (83-84) is still the 2nd best in major junior history.

I've seen tables that demonstrate the difference in performance in major junior based on age accurate to the month. early and late birthdays 100% make a difference. In the Bedard thread in this section I did a table of the best adjusted D seasons in major junior going back to 1980, but it's not adjusted for birthday. It really should be.

 

[MeHateHe]

I mean, Rob Brown, sure, and the mullet should stand on its own.

But you have to have Dan Hodgson in there somewhere. Nearly 400 points in three seasons in Prince Albert, including 180 goals.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

I think I gave a quick look to see if any junior footage existed, but I don't think he ever played in the Memorial Cup, so it's a long shot...if it existed, I'd definitely take a look.

No, his Niagara Falls team lost to Peterborough Petes in the OHL finals… I reckon his issues kept him off the Nordiques roster, but when he actually did play his numbers look good.

But how about his actual NHL tenure? He at least seems to have posted pretty good numbers the games he did play.

I keep peeking in on this thread to see a self-nomination from Terry Ryan.

I seem to remember he himself admitting to having been boosted up the draft charts by playing second fiddle to Langkow in an interview

 

[JackSlater]

Nobody has sniffed 282 points in CHL history. Theres no overating it. He is 30 points clear of anyone else

CHL scoring records aren't the be all and end all. Pierre Larouche has the second highest scoring QMJHL season, and with some distance between him and Lafontaine at 3. Michel Deziel and Real Cloutier round out the top five. It's a great season for Lemieux but it doesn't automatically elevate him above guys who actually have better junior "careers".

I'd also be more impressed if Lemieux gave up some QMJHL games and points and torched the WJC to a notable degree.

Also funny to me, Taylor Hall is sort of the Rocket Richard of junior careers. Playoff legend, twice Memorial Cup MVP.

 

[mobilus]

I think I’ve heard or read Mats Sundin mentioning Fogarty as one of the most talented players he’s come across.

Did you ever ‘scout’ him, how good was he and what do you think he could have been if not for the off-ice issues?

Mats Sundin: "Bryan Fogarty could skate faster, shoot harder and pass crisper drunk than the rest of us could sober."

 

[MadLuke]

Also funny to me, Taylor swift is sort of the Rocket Richard of junior careers. Playoff legend, twice Memorial Cup MVP.

Seem like a phone (or brain) changed Hall for Swift, for a second I was trying to understand some metaphor I could not get.....

 

[JackSlater]

Seem like a phone (or brain) changed Hall for Swift, for a second I was trying to understand some metaphor I could not get.....

Very true, that was a rare auto correct that I don't recall ever noticing on my own end before. Perhaps I have just been talking to people about Taylor swift's lack of durability and over reliance on athleticism for years now and never realized.

 

[MeHateHe]

Seem like a phone (or brain) changed Hall for Swift, for a second I was trying to understand some metaphor I could not get.....

Player gonna play play play play.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

It is really lemieuxs last 3 games that puts his numbers in 83-84 into a whole other level than has ever been seen.
Larouche had 251 in 67 games in 73-74. After 67 games mario had 262 points. He then scored 20 in his last 3 (18 in his past 2!) To vault himself to a godly 282 points. As is if larouche played 70 games he was on pace for 262 points. Still 20 off marios 282

 

[Michael Farkas]

But how about his actual NHL tenure? He at least seems to have posted pretty good numbers the games he did play.

I guess not in any serious manner. Probably wouldn't be a bad thing to do one weekend morning...

 

[Davenport]

How about Michel Briere? He played two seasons in the Quebec Junior A Hockey League (QJAHL). His first season - 1967-68 - he led the league in goals with 54 (Rick Martin was second with 38), in assists with 105 (Jean Fradette was second with 45) and in points with 159 (Fradette was second with 78). In 1968-69, Briere again led the QJAHL in goals with 75 (Guy Lafleur was second with 50), in assists with 86 (teammate Mike Morton was second with 84; Rich Leduc was third with 74) and in points with 161 (Morton was second with 125; Leduc was third with 122).

 

[carjackmalone]

Brett Hull in Penticton

 

[seventieslord]

It is really lemieuxs last 3 games that puts his numbers in 83-84 into a whole other level than has ever been seen.
Larouche had 251 in 67 games in 73-74. After 67 games mario had 262 points. He then scored 20 in his last 3 (18 in his past 2!) To vault himself to a godly 282 points. As is if larouche played 70 games he was on pace for 262 points. Still 20 off marios 282

Interesting. Did those games mean anything to Laval or their opponents?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Interesting. Did those games mean anything to Laval or their opponents?

Im not sure. Lemieux was actively gunning for the goals record though.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Lemieux’s last game was an 11 point game in a 16-5 win over Longueuil. The game didn't impact the standings one way or another. Laval had the league title locked up a month earlier.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Mats Sundin: "Bryan Fogarty could skate faster, shoot harder and pass crisper drunk than the rest of us could sober."

Yeah, this was probably the quote I read.

I was actually reminded of an interview with a former Luleå player that I listened to a couple of years back or so, where they talked briefly about him playing in Germany for a season… it’s been a while, and I don’t remember if Fogarty’s name was mentioned or if I had a look at the roster and just noticed it, but anyway: I realized the guy had been teammates with Fogarty for a season late in the latter’s career. Late as in, I believed he died only a couple of years later. I think the guy might have mentioned that there were a rowdy bunch on the German team or something, and I remember wishing they’d delved deeper into it.

Anyhoo, I just realized I could send an email to the guy and ask what he remembers about Fogarty at that stage in his career. Probably after finding and listening to the interview once more…

 

[MeHateHe]

Brett Hull in Penticton

That was Junior A, not major junior.