What are the greatest Major Junior Careers of all time?
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buffalowing88
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Lemieux and Lindros are obvious answers. Orr and Lafleur and the guy in my avatar picture were incredible in juniors, too.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Folks will come up with better answers than this because there are better answers, but I always like to insert defenseman Bryan Fogarty into these discussions: Bryan Fogarty - Stats, Contract, Salary & More
Not only did he lead his team in assists and was a First Team OHL All-Star in '87, he came back in '89 and literally Bobby Orr'd the league.
Not only did he lead his team in assists and was a First Team OHL All-Star in '87, he came back in '89 and literally Bobby Orr'd the league.
PurpleMouse
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MadLuke
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In the Q,
Lafleur because of the draft year of the time played a lot of juniors which make him a great candidate, but did lead the league in points a single time.
Lemieux also did lead the league a single time despite playing 3 seasons.
Crosby had big lead the 2 season he played, but never won the memorial cup, second place to a very loaded Corey Perry-Bolland-Methot London Knights
Lafleur because of the draft year of the time played a lot of juniors which make him a great candidate, but did lead the league in points a single time.
Lemieux also did lead the league a single time despite playing 3 seasons.
Crosby had big lead the 2 season he played, but never won the memorial cup, second place to a very loaded Corey Perry-Bolland-Methot London Knights
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JackSlater
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Lafleur was the name that came to mind for me, but I'm open to others. Somewhat uneven playing field once the NHL started drafting players at 18, but that isn't Lafleur's fault. I also remember reading that Lafleur was making hundreds of thousands in 1970 just playing for the Remparts, which doesn't make hm better or worse but it does mean that he was surely having a great time.
David Bruce Banner
Acid Raven Bed Burn
Marcel Dionne hasn't been mentioned yet and some guy named Gretzky had a pretty good age 16 season in the OHL back in the day.
Not the best but Rob Brown was killer in the WHL.
Dale Hawerchuk was dynamite in the Q as a 17 and 18 year old and scored 80 points in 37 playoff games his 2 seasons there.
Not the best but Rob Brown was killer in the WHL.
Dale Hawerchuk was dynamite in the Q as a 17 and 18 year old and scored 80 points in 37 playoff games his 2 seasons there.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
post-79, you're straddling the line between "guys who were so good that they went straight to the NHL after drafting" and "guys who played out their junior eligibility which generally means they weren't that good at 17-18 but at least they put in a good 4 years"
pre-79, lots of good answers, like Bossy, Lafleur and Dionne
pre-79, lots of good answers, like Bossy, Lafleur and Dionne
sr edler
gold is not reality
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Europeans historically haven't had the same junior team structures as in NA, so you can't really compare it that way, but players like Bure, Forsberg, Jagr, et cetera, were all great young players. I think Bure was voted MVP in his first WJC in 1989 despite being younger than all of Mogilny, Fedorov, Modano and Roenick.
Do you think there is a bit of an apples to oranges thing here with comparing newer players and older.
How many of the best Canadians teens went the NCAA route 40 or 50 years ago?
Did the fact that so many NHL calibre players at age 18/19 stayed in the CHL pre-'79 affect the performances of 16/17 year phenom like Lafleur?
Lindros played less than 100 games in the OHL.
JackSlater
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That was my memory too but I don't think they actually did a media vote back then. The IIHF doesn't officially give out an MVP for the WJC but I think it's clear that Bure would have won it, just as Lindros won it as a 17 year old and the immortal Jesse Puljujarvi did as a 17 year old and their obvious heir.
overpass
Registered User
Denis Potvin played his first games with the Ottawa 67s at age 14, when pro scouts were already calling him the next Bobby Orr. He signed with the 67s for home games only in the 1968-69 season, but ended up getting permission to travel and playing the full season in which he turned 15. Potvin went on to play five full seasons with the 67s, was named an OHA first team all star in the last 3 seasons at age 17, 18, and 19, and broke Bobby Orr's OHA record for points by a defenseman in his age 19 season.
The Leader-Post
books.google.ca
overpass
Registered User
In addition to being a great offensive player, Potvin dominated the OHA physically with his hitting. Earl McRae wrote a long article on Potvin at age 19 that focused on his physical play above everything.
Bill Long, Potvin's former 67s coach, said he should have been playing in the NHL. “He could have gone up to pro hockey a year or two ago, no doubt about it. He could have helped any of the expansion clubs and some of the old clubs. He’s got everything. I can’t see how he can miss being the number one NHL draft pick in June.”
Here are a few excerpts from McRae's article about Potvin's physical play as a junior.
“Potvin. That’s all I hear these days. Potvin. What is it about this Potvin?”
“What is it about Potvin? gasps Jonescu. “He’s just the greatest thing to come along on two skates in years, that’s what I mean. He’ll make them forget Orr. Listen, you should see the kid hit. Nobody anywhere hits like Potvin. They crawl off the ice. They crawl. Where have you been?”
***
But it’s Potvin the hitter I want to see. Potvin the hitter who once put a player in the first row of seats with his hip, and seldom completes a game without leaving a legacy of human destruction. They say it’s something to see, Potvin flattening somebody.
The kill comes with two minutes left. Dave Gorman is whooshing down ice, pockets of wind billowing out his jersey. Dave Gorman is 17, a lean and lanky Black Hawk right winger, and when he hits the 67s’ blueline, he suddenly cuts in to the middle. He dips his head to glance at the puck. His head is down for about one second. No more. It is all Denis Potvin needs. Potvin’s shoulder crashes against the upper chest and jaw of Dave Gorman. Dave Gorman is 5-foot-10 and weighs 175 pounds. Denis Potvin is 5-foot-11 and weighs 200 pounds. Dave Gorman’s head is the first part of him to hit the ice.
He's dragged off and second later slumps off to the dressing room. He doesn’t come back. But it’s a clean check.
***
The legend of Potvin the fighter was born one October night in 1969. He was 16 then and in his third season with the 67s, already one of junior hockey’s premier defencemen. Fran McKey was 16 too and a rookie right winger with St. Catharines. McKey was a tall, skinny kid with lots of promise and a sharp needle. He’d been using it on Potvin throughout the game. “Hey Potvin,” he was taunting, “why doncha get the coach to change your diapers?” Potvin ignored him but later in the game it got to him.
“What did you say?”
“I said why doncha get the coach to change your diapers?”
They bumped chests.
“What was that?”
“I said why doncha get the---“
McKey was taken off the ice on a stretcher. He had a fractured skull, broken collarbone and two black eyes. Potvin had sore knuckles.
“It was the worst beating I’ve ever seen a man get in hockey,” recalls Jack Gateliff, sports editor of the St. Catharines Standard. “Potvin hit him first and hit him hard and McKey went down like you wouldn’t believe. He didn’t get a punch in. Potvin never stopped punching. McKey’s teammates just watched. McKey was never the same player after that.”
***
Potvin has seldom been bothered after that fight. The enemy respects his hips and shoulders and they respect his fists. In the game I watched, Black Hawk forwards would pass the puck away before reaching him or turn inside out to avoid colliding with him. Few players tried to outhustle him.
“Denis will put the hitting back in defence,” says his coach Leo Boivin, a former great defenceman with the Boston Bruins. “There’s very little hitting today and what there is doesn’t amount to much. But this kid loves to hit. I’ve never seen anybody, I say anybody, lay them out like Denis does. And all good, clean checks. It’s why he’s so great. That and his abilities. He can score, set up plays, and his passes seldom miss. Oh, they’ll try to rough him up when he hits the pros but they’ll have a time of it. He’s still growing.”
***
“I learned that you had to play hard and tough in hockey or football. That’s the way you play them. Football was really my first love. I played fullback for Rideau High School and, man, I loved going through the line, right through the middle, wham, hitting anybody who got in the way. It’s a great feeling.”
There is no more beautiful sight in hockey, says Potvin, than a good, hard, clean bodycheck.
“I don’t feel right unless I flatten at least one player every game. I mean, really lay them out. It’s very important psychologically. You wouldn’t believe how one hard hit can demoralize the opposition and uplift your team. When a player sees his friend crawling off the ice, he’s hurt too.” He chuckles. “I see them skating around with scared looks on their faces wondering who’s next and it feels good. I’m always aware of the guy with his head down. If he puts his head down near me then it’s my job to lay him out. That’s the game. Maybe I hit harder than others but that’s how it should be.”
Potvin’s body crunches are well prepared in advance. He takes a nap the afternoon of a game and tries to dream of the players on the team he’ll be facing. “I see their numbers and colors and I try to think of things about them I don’t like. I get madder and madder. If I’ve had a fight with Dad the morning of a game or if I’m mad for some other reason I think about it and think about it and when I get on the ice, I’m really angry. I release my frustrations on the other players. But you have to be angry. That way you don’t get hurt.”
***
The focus on blowing up opponents with a big hit is out of date, but it's how I remember junior hockey when watching the Ottawa 67s in the late 90s. That quote "if he puts his head down near me then it's my job to lay him out" is exactly how we all understood hockey. Now? The past is a foreign country.
The Montreal Gazette
books.google.ca
Bill Long, Potvin's former 67s coach, said he should have been playing in the NHL. “He could have gone up to pro hockey a year or two ago, no doubt about it. He could have helped any of the expansion clubs and some of the old clubs. He’s got everything. I can’t see how he can miss being the number one NHL draft pick in June.”
Here are a few excerpts from McRae's article about Potvin's physical play as a junior.
“Potvin. That’s all I hear these days. Potvin. What is it about this Potvin?”
“What is it about Potvin? gasps Jonescu. “He’s just the greatest thing to come along on two skates in years, that’s what I mean. He’ll make them forget Orr. Listen, you should see the kid hit. Nobody anywhere hits like Potvin. They crawl off the ice. They crawl. Where have you been?”
***
But it’s Potvin the hitter I want to see. Potvin the hitter who once put a player in the first row of seats with his hip, and seldom completes a game without leaving a legacy of human destruction. They say it’s something to see, Potvin flattening somebody.
The kill comes with two minutes left. Dave Gorman is whooshing down ice, pockets of wind billowing out his jersey. Dave Gorman is 17, a lean and lanky Black Hawk right winger, and when he hits the 67s’ blueline, he suddenly cuts in to the middle. He dips his head to glance at the puck. His head is down for about one second. No more. It is all Denis Potvin needs. Potvin’s shoulder crashes against the upper chest and jaw of Dave Gorman. Dave Gorman is 5-foot-10 and weighs 175 pounds. Denis Potvin is 5-foot-11 and weighs 200 pounds. Dave Gorman’s head is the first part of him to hit the ice.
He's dragged off and second later slumps off to the dressing room. He doesn’t come back. But it’s a clean check.
***
The legend of Potvin the fighter was born one October night in 1969. He was 16 then and in his third season with the 67s, already one of junior hockey’s premier defencemen. Fran McKey was 16 too and a rookie right winger with St. Catharines. McKey was a tall, skinny kid with lots of promise and a sharp needle. He’d been using it on Potvin throughout the game. “Hey Potvin,” he was taunting, “why doncha get the coach to change your diapers?” Potvin ignored him but later in the game it got to him.
“What did you say?”
“I said why doncha get the coach to change your diapers?”
They bumped chests.
“What was that?”
“I said why doncha get the---“
McKey was taken off the ice on a stretcher. He had a fractured skull, broken collarbone and two black eyes. Potvin had sore knuckles.
“It was the worst beating I’ve ever seen a man get in hockey,” recalls Jack Gateliff, sports editor of the St. Catharines Standard. “Potvin hit him first and hit him hard and McKey went down like you wouldn’t believe. He didn’t get a punch in. Potvin never stopped punching. McKey’s teammates just watched. McKey was never the same player after that.”
***
Potvin has seldom been bothered after that fight. The enemy respects his hips and shoulders and they respect his fists. In the game I watched, Black Hawk forwards would pass the puck away before reaching him or turn inside out to avoid colliding with him. Few players tried to outhustle him.
“Denis will put the hitting back in defence,” says his coach Leo Boivin, a former great defenceman with the Boston Bruins. “There’s very little hitting today and what there is doesn’t amount to much. But this kid loves to hit. I’ve never seen anybody, I say anybody, lay them out like Denis does. And all good, clean checks. It’s why he’s so great. That and his abilities. He can score, set up plays, and his passes seldom miss. Oh, they’ll try to rough him up when he hits the pros but they’ll have a time of it. He’s still growing.”
***
“I learned that you had to play hard and tough in hockey or football. That’s the way you play them. Football was really my first love. I played fullback for Rideau High School and, man, I loved going through the line, right through the middle, wham, hitting anybody who got in the way. It’s a great feeling.”
There is no more beautiful sight in hockey, says Potvin, than a good, hard, clean bodycheck.
“I don’t feel right unless I flatten at least one player every game. I mean, really lay them out. It’s very important psychologically. You wouldn’t believe how one hard hit can demoralize the opposition and uplift your team. When a player sees his friend crawling off the ice, he’s hurt too.” He chuckles. “I see them skating around with scared looks on their faces wondering who’s next and it feels good. I’m always aware of the guy with his head down. If he puts his head down near me then it’s my job to lay him out. That’s the game. Maybe I hit harder than others but that’s how it should be.”
Potvin’s body crunches are well prepared in advance. He takes a nap the afternoon of a game and tries to dream of the players on the team he’ll be facing. “I see their numbers and colors and I try to think of things about them I don’t like. I get madder and madder. If I’ve had a fight with Dad the morning of a game or if I’m mad for some other reason I think about it and think about it and when I get on the ice, I’m really angry. I release my frustrations on the other players. But you have to be angry. That way you don’t get hurt.”
***
The focus on blowing up opponents with a big hit is out of date, but it's how I remember junior hockey when watching the Ottawa 67s in the late 90s. That quote "if he puts his head down near me then it's my job to lay him out" is exactly how we all understood hockey. Now? The past is a foreign country.
Stephen
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Crosby2010
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Perhaps I am the first to ask this but is anyone else wondering why Mike Richards was mentioned? I am okay with Brad Richards just because of his insane 2000 season but all three of his years in the QMJHL he was dominant. His draft year he has 115 points. Then 130, then 186. Richards was not a goal scorer, but he cracked 71 goals in 2000. Wow. There are others that were better of course but he did have an impressive run.
Okay, but back to Mike. Why Mike? He did win a Memorial Cup and a WJC. But so did Corey Perry, and to be honest Perry had a better junior career than Richards.
How about Ray Ferraro getting a bit of love here? A 108 goal and 192 point season in the WHL in his last year of junior. Correct me if this is inaccurate, but is Ferraro the only player in the juniors in Canada to score over 100 goals in a season outside of the QMJHL?
Let's not forget Bobby Orr here. 4 years in the OHL and his final season, when he's 17, he gets 94 points in 47 games. Two points per game for a defenseman and he's playing against 19 year olds.
A darkhorse is Daniel Briere.
But the answer here is Mario. Come on, how can it not be? 96, 184 and 282 points each year? The all-time CHL record in points in a single season. The all-time record in goals in a single season. The all-time record in assists in a single season (that is correct isn't it?). Anyway, wake me up if there is another player who gets 200 points in a single season in his draft year and we'll talk. And even then he'll still need 82 more. Sorry, but 4 points per game is unheard of.
Lastly, Patrice Lefebvre has some eye popping stats. He was 5'6" and I am guessing that was what hurt him, but how could he not even get drafted? He put up some huge numbers in the minors too. I also looked at his penalty minutes and he certainly was involved. Maybe he wasn't scrappy like Theo Fleury or anything but was it just his size that held him back? Because other guys who were 5'6" made the NHL.
Nathaniel Skywalker
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282p in 70gp is a particular stat I like to look at from time to time to remember how insane lemieux was.
The Panther
Registered User
Mario is obviously up there, but to contextualize his Q seasons:
1983
-- 20 goals and 30 points behind Pat Lafontaine
-- Third in scoring behind Lafontaine and Claude Verret... who managed 14 career NHL games.
1984
-- 5 players on his club scored 113 or more points. (Jacques Goyette -- whose hockey career ended in spring '84 -- scored 76 goals in 62 games. Apparently, Goyette had a chance to play in the AHL but decided to become a police officer instead...)
-- Team scored 7.53 goals per game.
Fixed to Ruin
Come wit it now!
Gregor Samsa
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- Sep 5, 2020
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MarkusKetterer
Shoulda got one game in
Let’s put it this way: Patrick Roy never had a single shutout in his QMJHL career and his lowest GAA in a year was 4.44
Somebody has to mention Brian Cullen - the young fellow wearing the C. Played 169 regular season games with the Tee Pees: scored 139 goals, and added 152 assists for 291 points, Brought home the Memorial Cup his last season.
Staniowski
Registered User
As others have alluded to, age is an important factor here. Many of the best prospects, and talents, have left after their 17-year-old seasons. Some of these guys actually were all-time greats as juniors; others, not really.
You can see the age differences in the WJC also. Some countries, like Soviet Union and Sweden, had periods where they were reluctant to take 17-year-olds.
Also, when I followed major junior fairly closely, a really big factor was overagers (i.e. 20 year olds). They obviously were almost never big NHL prospects, but they were big difference makers in junior.
And, of course, the late-birthday guys like Mario Lemieux, which bumps him up on any greatest junior list. And the draft age, as already mentioned.
So...guys like Sakic too. He went back to junior. Kucherov played as a 19 year old.
So, these are all factors.
You can see the age differences in the WJC also. Some countries, like Soviet Union and Sweden, had periods where they were reluctant to take 17-year-olds.
Also, when I followed major junior fairly closely, a really big factor was overagers (i.e. 20 year olds). They obviously were almost never big NHL prospects, but they were big difference makers in junior.
And, of course, the late-birthday guys like Mario Lemieux, which bumps him up on any greatest junior list. And the draft age, as already mentioned.
So...guys like Sakic too. He went back to junior. Kucherov played as a 19 year old.
So, these are all factors.
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Yozhik v tumane
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- Jan 2, 2019
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I think I’ve heard or read Mats Sundin mentioning Fogarty as one of the most talented players he’s come across.
Did you ever ‘scout’ him, how good was he and what do you think he could have been if not for the off-ice issues?
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