What are examples of historical revisionism that you hate the most?

[Hockey Outsider]

I agree Crosby wasn't anything special defensively during the first five years of his career, but he was already getting recognition for his two-way play starting around 2010 (not 2015). Here are a few sources:

"The fact of the matter is that while there are plenty of other candidates trying to steal Crosby's spot atop the NHL throne -- Steven Stamkos, Alex Ovechkin, to name a few -- none of them can boast the resume that Crosby can. None of them can boast the same two-way game he plays." (November 2011 - link)

"Crosby is probably the most complete player in the NHL" (September 2013 - link)

"Crosby’s defensive game has come so far that Dan Bylsma now matches Crosby against the opposition’s top line on a regular basis. Crosby has already learned the lessons of playing both ways that it took many of the game's greats, such as Steve Yzerman and Joe Sakic, so many years to realize they had to learn, which has substantially contributed to his winning pedigree." (December 2010 - link)

"Crosby leads the league with 32 goals and 65 points, and his defensive play has also excelled" (January 2011 - link - behind a paywall)

"Crosby took a cue from Pavel Datsyuk as he rounded out his game to a robust form this season. Crosby finished just ahead of Datsyuk at 11th in faceoff win percentage, a feat magnified by the fact that Crosby led the league in faceoffs taken as well as faceoffs won by a 137-win margin... There was no more complete star in the Eastern Conference and maybe not the entire league than Crosby". (April 2010 - link)

"He is an offensive juggernaut with great vision, but he is also a very solid defensive player who is a threat whenever he is on the ice." (August 2012 - link)

"Not only was Sid the only guy to score 100 points this year, he is also a good defensive player too." (May 2014 - link - this article criticizes Crosby for a "controller disconnected" moment, but it's in the context of it being surprising because he's generally good defensively)

"[Stamkos] has taken great strides over the last few seasons to get better defensively, but there's still plenty of room for improvement in this area of his game... He certainly has a lot to work on before he's a complete player like Crosby, but the gap between the two of them isn't a gigantic one, and it will get smaller as Stamkos continues to improve in all areas of his game." (March 2013 - link)

"...Crosby is a great two-way player as well; he's one of the greatest players in the world... He's an amazing two-way player and can also play defense" (June 2012 - link - the author argues that the Pens should trade Crosby away)

"Kings Coach Darryl Sutter theorized Crosby’s production has declined because “he’s playing a more complete game” as part of the Penguins’ improved defensive effort under Coach Mike Johnston." (December 2015 - link) - then later from the same article: "Our team has asked him to be really good on faceoffs in the defensive zone. He goes out there for almost all of those faceoffs. That’s something that’s new for him, but I think he’s always been that complete player".

The idea that hockey writers suddenly thought that Crosby was a good two-way player after he stopped contending for the Art Ross (ie after the 2014-15 season) is counter-factual.

 

[nowhereman]

Yeah that's history revision.

Crosby never had a defensive reputation at all until his offense fell off around 2015. Then magically the Canadian media started saying he was great defensively and contributing a lot defensively even though his penalty killing time started running down near zero and his offensive zone starts increased.

The thing is, no matter how many times you say it, no matter how many times you wish it to be true, no matter how many times you complain about media bias or "narratives" – Crosby was never a substandard defensive player. Even if he was never a top Selke contender, he has still been heralded for his all-around game for almost his entire career (especially in the playoffs).

Me thinks that if OV hadn't been criticized for his defensive play so often, I doubt this would even be a sticking point for you.

Crosby used to be a contender for the Art Ross. After 2015 he wasn't. This isn't remotely controversial.

He literally finished 2nd in scoring in 2017 and most likely would have won or been within a point or two, had he not missed the beginning of the season.

Revisionism, you say?

 

[MasterofGrond]

Leading the Conference/League in scoring doesn't negate the fact that the Devils style and trap were boring.

The purpose of the trap was to slow down the other team and force turnovers, leading to odd man rushes and chances.

When it is executed properly, as the Devils did, you will realistically produce a lot of scoring chances resulting in inflated goal totals.

"their style of play created turnovers, rushes, and odd man chances, sure, but when the Devils created those exciting things they were BORING"

 

[mouser]

Worst historical revisionism?

Has to be Greedo shot first.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I agree Crosby wasn't anything special defensively during the first five years of his career, but he was already getting recognition for his two-way play starting around 2010 (not 2015). Here are a few sources:

"The fact of the matter is that while there are plenty of other candidates trying to steal Crosby's spot atop the NHL throne -- Steven Stamkos, Alex Ovechkin, to name a few -- none of them can boast the resume that Crosby can. None of them can boast the same two-way game he plays." (November 2011 - link)

"Crosby is probably the most complete player in the NHL" (September 2013 - link)

"Crosby’s defensive game has come so far that Dan Bylsma now matches Crosby against the opposition’s top line on a regular basis. Crosby has already learned the lessons of playing both ways that it took many of the game's greats, such as Steve Yzerman and Joe Sakic, so many years to realize they had to learn, which has substantially contributed to his winning pedigree." (December 2010 - link)

"Crosby leads the league with 32 goals and 65 points, and his defensive play has also excelled" (January 2011 - link - behind a paywall)

"Crosby took a cue from Pavel Datsyuk as he rounded out his game to a robust form this season. Crosby finished just ahead of Datsyuk at 11th in faceoff win percentage, a feat magnified by the fact that Crosby led the league in faceoffs taken as well as faceoffs won by a 137-win margin... There was no more complete star in the Eastern Conference and maybe not the entire league than Crosby". (April 2010 - link)

"He is an offensive juggernaut with great vision, but he is also a very solid defensive player who is a threat whenever he is on the ice." (August 2012 - link)

"Not only was Sid the only guy to score 100 points this year, he is also a good defensive player too." (May 2014 - link - this article criticizes Crosby for a "controller disconnected" moment, but it's in the context of it being surprising because he's generally good defensively)

"[Stamkos] has taken great strides over the last few seasons to get better defensively, but there's still plenty of room for improvement in this area of his game... He certainly has a lot to work on before he's a complete player like Crosby, but the gap between the two of them isn't a gigantic one, and it will get smaller as Stamkos continues to improve in all areas of his game." (March 2013 - link)

"...Crosby is a great two-way player as well; he's one of the greatest players in the world... He's an amazing two-way player and can also play defense" (June 2012 - link - the author argues that the Pens should trade Crosby away)

"Kings Coach Darryl Sutter theorized Crosby’s production has declined because “he’s playing a more complete game” as part of the Penguins’ improved defensive effort under Coach Mike Johnston." (December 2015 - link) - then later from the same article: "Our team has asked him to be really good on faceoffs in the defensive zone. He goes out there for almost all of those faceoffs. That’s something that’s new for him, but I think he’s always been that complete player".

The idea that hockey writers suddenly thought that Crosby was a good two-way player after he stopped contending for the Art Ross (ie after the 2014-15 season) is counter-factual.

I wonder how many of these same writers or media outlets had Crosby and Toews being equal(or Toews better) during the Hawks Stanley cup runs.

 

[Coffee]

that New Jersey only won because of the trap and boring defense first style play.

in 1994 which team scored the most goals in the eastern conference? Devils

in 2000 which team scored the most goals in the entire league? Devils

Karma for playing a dominant trap game that was smart and other teams always shitting on you, and now you guys got an abundance of high flying young guns.

Well deserved

 

[hangman005]

A distinction that's important to be made is whether the infractable offense would be "trolling" or "ethnic/gender slurs".

Probably not worth me derailing this thread additionally, so I won't, other than to add that the staff does our best to be fair and with that said, we are humans and aren't perfect.

Does this count as revisionist history? We all know I'm several ducks in a trench coat, and am indeed perfect.

 

[sr edler]

Bure cherry picking a majority of his goals.

Forsberg not being elite in the 90s.

Toews being a passenger on Chicago's three recent Cup teams.

Kovalev being an all-time great talent.

Tim Thomas single-handedly carrying a bunch of nobodies to the Cup.


^ These are some of the most annoying ones off the top of my head.

 

[TheStatican]

Worst historical revisionism?

Has to be Greedo shot first.

Except that's not just historical revisionism, that's literal revisionism or worst yet, historical falsification. We all know who shot first, but for some reason George decided that time travel is actually possible in-universe and pointlessly changed events from the past in the storyline.

 

[Fatass]

What the heck is “historical revisionism”? Isn’t looking at history through today’s lens always going to skew our view, and that view will change even more as time passes?

 

[banks]

Toews did, indeed, get overrated in his prime.

But the general consensus about him being overrated has now reached an insane level, to the point that I would say it qualifies for the thread. It's hard not to get overrated when you captain a team to a Cup at 22, and in the process win a Conn Smythe and become a triple gold member. But that's what he did. At this point he's underrated.

 

[blundluntman]

Yeah, I agree that Crosby's defensive play in his 20s gets overblown on here. Tbh though, it's more of a retort toward the claim that McDavid has to sacrifice defense in order to produce at the rate he does. The fact of the matter is that they're both decent in their own end; they're definitely not liabilities.

I do think it's revisionist history to say great players voluntarily traded in their offense for 2 way play in their older age. What actually happens is that their offensive production drops off due to age, and they have to round out their game to remain a net positive.

Also, the most irritable form of revisionism for me is the idea that athletes in the past were uncoordinated plumbers and chain smokers. Equipment is the clear-cut reason why players didn't look as impressive.

 

[Felidae]

I actually watched him play and you're wrong.

Did it occur to you that the user you were talking to might have also watched him play?

People can get different assessments over watching the same player.. just because you watched him doesn't make you automatically correct in your assessment.

 

[Machinehead]

Any time the Rangers sign somebody over the age of 25 or spend more than $10, it's "oh back to the Dark Ages."

Most of the veterans the Rangers had from 98-04 were still quality players. They sucked because they were the worst drafting team in sports before and during that run.

They still have some hiccups but the Rangers at least started getting NHL players at draft with some consistency after the lockout, which led to mostly going to the playoffs since then.

That's not to say that buying a bunch of players is a good strategy, or even feasible, but it's exhausting that it's brought up every time the Rangers acquire a good player.

Even with the current roster, people say "bunch of high priced stars." Artemi Panarin and who else?

 

[Midnight Judges]

The thing is, no matter how many times you say it, no matter how many times you wish it to be true, no matter how many times you complain about media bias or "narratives" – Crosby was never a substandard defensive player. Even if he was never a top Selke contender, he has still been heralded for his all-around game for almost his entire career (especially in the playoffs).

Me thinks that if OV hadn't been criticized for his defensive play so often, I doubt this would even be a sticking point for you.

The primary difference between Ovechkin and Crosby defensively is Sid has an entire national media willing to lie for him. Neither player is deployed for defense. Both players are 'last guy back' / 'first guy out' type of players, and always have been (and rightfully so). Whereas the 3rd and 4th line centers on the Pens have defensive responsibilities, Sid's line puts much of that on his wingers - like Dupuis, Kunitz, etc.

Sid is a bit better finesse-wise with his stick, and Ovie is exponentially more physical. Sid is also a better possession player, but that's primarily an offense thing.

 

[LemonSauceD]

Bure cherry picking a majority of his goals.

Forsberg not being elite in the 90s.

Toews being a passenger on Chicago's three recent Cup teams.

Kovalev being an all-time great talent.

Tim Thomas single-handedly carrying a bunch of nobodies to the Cup.


^ These are some of the most annoying ones off the top of my head.

Kovalev was hugely underrated.

 

[Midnight Judges]

He literally finished 2nd in scoring in 2017 and most likely would have won or been within a point or two, had he not missed the beginning of the season.

Revisionism, you say?

Sid was 11 points back and was coming off a year where he was blown out of the water by Patrick Kane. Crosby simply wasn't getting the result that the Canadian media predicted or desired for him, and so they compensated.

The Canadian media desired a way to claim Sid was still somehow better than the American who out-pointed and out-goaled Sid. And so they claimed his defense had improved despite there being little to no statistical evidence for that.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

I mean, the rules allowed them to draft a team of 2nd/3rd liners, and second pairing (3/4) defenseman.

Never has the expansion draft allowed teams to protect so few players. The expansion fees were ridiculous compared to the last round of expansion, so bettman loosened the rules to allow vegas and Seattle to be more competitive out of the gate.

That's only a good thing. The previous expansion rules were brutal for new teams.

 

[Toby91ca]

The primary difference between Ovechkin and Crosby defensively is Sid has an entire national media willing to lie for him. Neither player is deployed for defense. Both players are 'last guy back' / 'first guy out' type of players, and always have been (and rightfully so).

I'm sorry, but this is complete BS, there is no other way to describe it. Biggest difference in Crosby and Ovechkin's defensive play is the media? Seriously? I'll admit, I don't watch as many late night Western conference games, but I do see plenty of WSH games and PIT games. There is no doubt, Crosby is not deployed as a defensive specialist because he's too skilled for that. By the way, purely defensive specialists doesn't mean they are better defensively either. Anyway....suggesting Crosby is last guy back and first guy out is completely false, nowhere near accurate. He's more often than not the opposite of that. Of course, it's impossible to always be the first guy back and last guy out, but more often than not, he is.

Now.....the main reason for that is that he plays centre and Ovechkin plays wing....so you'd expect that.

 

[Video Nasty]

He literally finished 2nd in scoring in 2017 and most likely would have won or been within a point or two, had he not missed the beginning of the season.

Revisionism, you say?

It’s most likely that he would have scored the 11 points needed to win the Art Ross with the goals tiebreaker or 12 to win outright in the opening 6 games he missed and then had everything unfold in the exact same way that it did in reality?

A season after Kane tore him apart in the scoring race and he finished behind Benn again? A season before he never sniffed a win in the scoring race again?

No, it’s not most likely at all.

This is why people on this forum have a problem with the myth of Crosby. It’s not about him. It’s about the extremes and assumptions some make.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I agree Crosby wasn't anything special defensively during the first five years of his career, but he was already getting recognition for his two-way play starting around 2010 (not 2015). Here are a few sources:

"The fact of the matter is that while there are plenty of other candidates trying to steal Crosby's spot atop the NHL throne -- Steven Stamkos, Alex Ovechkin, to name a few -- none of them can boast the resume that Crosby can. None of them can boast the same two-way game he plays." (November 2011 - link)

"Crosby is probably the most complete player in the NHL" (September 2013 - link)

"Crosby’s defensive game has come so far that Dan Bylsma now matches Crosby against the opposition’s top line on a regular basis. Crosby has already learned the lessons of playing both ways that it took many of the game's greats, such as Steve Yzerman and Joe Sakic, so many years to realize they had to learn, which has substantially contributed to his winning pedigree." (December 2010 - link)

"Crosby leads the league with 32 goals and 65 points, and his defensive play has also excelled" (January 2011 - link - behind a paywall)

"Crosby took a cue from Pavel Datsyuk as he rounded out his game to a robust form this season. Crosby finished just ahead of Datsyuk at 11th in faceoff win percentage, a feat magnified by the fact that Crosby led the league in faceoffs taken as well as faceoffs won by a 137-win margin... There was no more complete star in the Eastern Conference and maybe not the entire league than Crosby". (April 2010 - link)

"He is an offensive juggernaut with great vision, but he is also a very solid defensive player who is a threat whenever he is on the ice." (August 2012 - link)

"Not only was Sid the only guy to score 100 points this year, he is also a good defensive player too." (May 2014 - link - this article criticizes Crosby for a "controller disconnected" moment, but it's in the context of it being surprising because he's generally good defensively)

"[Stamkos] has taken great strides over the last few seasons to get better defensively, but there's still plenty of room for improvement in this area of his game... He certainly has a lot to work on before he's a complete player like Crosby, but the gap between the two of them isn't a gigantic one, and it will get smaller as Stamkos continues to improve in all areas of his game." (March 2013 - link)

"...Crosby is a great two-way player as well; he's one of the greatest players in the world... He's an amazing two-way player and can also play defense" (June 2012 - link - the author argues that the Pens should trade Crosby away)

"Kings Coach Darryl Sutter theorized Crosby’s production has declined because “he’s playing a more complete game” as part of the Penguins’ improved defensive effort under Coach Mike Johnston." (December 2015 - link) - then later from the same article: "Our team has asked him to be really good on faceoffs in the defensive zone. He goes out there for almost all of those faceoffs. That’s something that’s new for him, but I think he’s always been that complete player".

The idea that hockey writers suddenly thought that Crosby was a good two-way player after he stopped contending for the Art Ross (ie after the 2014-15 season) is counter-factual.

No doubt you can find a relative few inaccurate homer quotes for Crosby throughout his career. There have always been people willing to do that.

I can quote a Canadian Conn Smythe voter who claims Sid arguably deserved the 2016 Conn Smythe over Kessel in part because of Sid's penalty killing responsibilities. Sid PK'd a practically non-existent 10 seconds per game that year (which is actually mostly Sid hopping over the boards after the final clear).

^^^I would never quote this falsehood to try and back something up.

Sid never got any significant Selke support until his offense fell off - which is precisely the point. When he was arguably the best offensive player in the NHL, he never appeared on more than 5 or 6 ballots.

Then Crosby starts losing Art Ross races and there's no injury excuse anymore. He's just plain getting beat.

His deployment actually starts getting geared MORE for offense. His offensive zone starts INCREASE (from averaging roughly 62% in his first half to roughly 68% in the alleged Selke years). His defensive zone starts commensurately DECREASE. His penalty killing per game decreases (37 seconds per game in the first half of his career to 16 seconds in the second half of his career). His non-power play goals against increase or stay the same. And somehow he starts appearing on more ballots (9-13 ballots). Then he finishes 10th in scoring in 2018 despite playing 82 games and after that is when the "Crosby must be working on his defense" explosion happens and suddenly 100+ voters are willing to say Sid is comparable to Patrice Bergeron despite Sid being on the ice for a career-worst 78 non-power play goals against in the 2019 season (which is a whopping 80% more than what Bergeron is typically on ice for in a full season).

Sid somehow got 34 1st place votes for the Selke in 2019. It is nearly a statistical falsehood to say he was the absolute best defensive forward in the NHL that season. It was massively misaligned with what was actually happening on the ice IMO.

I'm sorry, but this is complete BS, there is no other way to describe it. Biggest difference in Crosby and Ovechkin's defensive play is the media? Seriously? I'll admit, I don't watch as many late night Western conference games, but I do see plenty of WSH games and PIT games. There is no doubt, Crosby is not deployed as a defensive specialist because he's too skilled for that. By the way, purely defensive specialists doesn't mean they are better defensively either. Anyway....suggesting Crosby is last guy back and first guy out is completely false, nowhere near accurate. He's more often than not the opposite of that. Of course, it's impossible to always be the first guy back and last guy out, but more often than not, he is.

Now.....the main reason for that is that he plays centre and Ovechkin plays wing....so you'd expect that.

Yeah you're flat out wrong. I don't know how else to say it.

Crosby is a last guy back type of player. Always has been. He's often behind the other team's goal.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Bure cherry picking a majority of his goals.

Forsberg not being elite in the 90s.

Toews being a passenger on Chicago's three recent Cup teams.

Kovalev being an all-time great talent.

Tim Thomas single-handedly carrying a bunch of nobodies to the Cup.


^ These are some of the most annoying ones off the top of my head.

Don't know about "majority of his goals" but Bure was a terrible cherry picker. I remember watching shifts of him outside his zone while the other team has the puck in his zone and his teammates are defending and he was floating around for the breakout.

Also while the Thomas thing is an exaggeration, he set the playoff record for save percentage while to that point in time, his team had one of the worst ever post lockout shots against per game (which no doubt helped hi save percentage). He played a big, big role.

Kovalev was hugely underrated.

Had the skill but basically zero drive. He's the epitome of the expression "hard work beats talent that doesn't work hard".

 

[Peat]

It’s most likely that he would have scored the 11 points needed to win the Art Ross with the goals tiebreaker or 12 to win outright in the opening 6 games he missed and then had everything unfold in the exact same way that it did in reality?

A season after Kane tore him apart in the scoring race and he finished behind Benn again? A season before he never sniffed a win in the scoring race again?

No, it’s not most likely at all.

This is why people on this forum have a problem with the myth of Crosby. It’s not about him. It’s about the extremes and assumptions some make.

You're quoting a post giving the most likely possibility as "won or been within a point or two" as saying only "he'd have won". That's a big difference.

No wonder you see extreme assumptions when you don't read what people write.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I agree Crosby wasn't anything special defensively during the first five years of his career, but he was already getting recognition for his two-way play starting around 2010 (not 2015). Here are a few sources:

"The fact of the matter is that while there are plenty of other candidates trying to steal Crosby's spot atop the NHL throne -- Steven Stamkos, Alex Ovechkin, to name a few -- none of them can boast the resume that Crosby can. None of them can boast the same two-way game he plays." (November 2011 - link)

"Crosby is probably the most complete player in the NHL" (September 2013 - link)

"Crosby’s defensive game has come so far that Dan Bylsma now matches Crosby against the opposition’s top line on a regular basis. Crosby has already learned the lessons of playing both ways that it took many of the game's greats, such as Steve Yzerman and Joe Sakic, so many years to realize they had to learn, which has substantially contributed to his winning pedigree." (December 2010 - link)

"Crosby leads the league with 32 goals and 65 points, and his defensive play has also excelled" (January 2011 - link - behind a paywall)

"Crosby took a cue from Pavel Datsyuk as he rounded out his game to a robust form this season. Crosby finished just ahead of Datsyuk at 11th in faceoff win percentage, a feat magnified by the fact that Crosby led the league in faceoffs taken as well as faceoffs won by a 137-win margin... There was no more complete star in the Eastern Conference and maybe not the entire league than Crosby". (April 2010 - link)

"He is an offensive juggernaut with great vision, but he is also a very solid defensive player who is a threat whenever he is on the ice." (August 2012 - link)

"Not only was Sid the only guy to score 100 points this year, he is also a good defensive player too." (May 2014 - link - this article criticizes Crosby for a "controller disconnected" moment, but it's in the context of it being surprising because he's generally good defensively)

"[Stamkos] has taken great strides over the last few seasons to get better defensively, but there's still plenty of room for improvement in this area of his game... He certainly has a lot to work on before he's a complete player like Crosby, but the gap between the two of them isn't a gigantic one, and it will get smaller as Stamkos continues to improve in all areas of his game." (March 2013 - link)

"...Crosby is a great two-way player as well; he's one of the greatest players in the world... He's an amazing two-way player and can also play defense" (June 2012 - link - the author argues that the Pens should trade Crosby away)

"Kings Coach Darryl Sutter theorized Crosby’s production has declined because “he’s playing a more complete game” as part of the Penguins’ improved defensive effort under Coach Mike Johnston." (December 2015 - link) - then later from the same article: "Our team has asked him to be really good on faceoffs in the defensive zone. He goes out there for almost all of those faceoffs. That’s something that’s new for him, but I think he’s always been that complete player".

The idea that hockey writers suddenly thought that Crosby was a good two-way player after he stopped contending for the Art Ross (ie after the 2014-15 season) is counter-factual.

For all the claims about it being Canadian media boosting Crosby's defense reputation, this list is exclusively Americans writing for American publications.

So if any national media is boosting Crosby it's American

 

[Hockey Outsider]

For all the claims about it being Canadian media boosting Crosby's defense reputation, this list is exclusively Americans writing for American publications.

So if any national media is boosting Crosby it's American

Yes, there were plenty more quotes from Canadian newspapers, magazines and blogs, but I excluded those just to avoid any suggestion of bias.