What a Difference Two Years Makes

[yubbers]

You just named one guy who is obviously a very special player. Yes please do go on

Gardiner's entering his prime as a PMD. All the star PMD players in the league have already established themselves at his age. Subban, Letang, Karlsson, Doughty, Shattenkirk, etc

He still makes the same mistakes he did in his rookie year which by now he should have corrected. His value has clearly dropped by a significant amount and he's starting to come to the point of settling as an average player. His lack of development in his own zone and hockey IQ is worrying to say the least, that's for sure.

He's deteriorated significantly this season. My faith in him has been waivering for a while. I still can't help bit think carlyle is playing a pay in that but that's another conversation.You nailed it on the head. He's just not learning from his mistakes. Therfore not developing. And if this is where he plateaus, no thanks

 

[Banic]

He's deteriorated significantly this season. My faith in him has been waivering for a while. I still can't help bit think carlyle is playing a pay in that but that's another conversation.You nailed it on the head. He's just not learning from his mistakes. Therfore not developing. And if this is where he plateaus, no thanks

I agree with you. You put people in positions in achieve success, not failure. Carlyle's stubbornness has players questioning everything they know about hockey / their instincts. Same as Wilson, just a different group and he's not as boorish. We need a coach able to adapt.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Leaf fan realists have been saying this for almost 5 years.
We were called "trolls" and other such nonsense for having the audacity to voice our opinions (which have been proven to have been correct).

When Burke first got here and attempted his "re-tool" as opposed to a legitimate rebuild, we pointed out that it would be a drastic mistake.
That we would be a future "mediocre slip into the playoffs" team, as opposed to a future elite team.

It's pretty much outrageous to claim at this point that we have a young core that will be a future elite team. Outrageous.
And that's all as the richest team in the league, who have made the playoffs ONCE in the past 10 years.
A team that has during that time finished in the position to have drafted 13th, 5th, 7th, 2nd, 9th, 5th overall in that time.
All with the highest paid scouting department and front office.

You can't blame ownership... they're throwing out the bucks and doing ANYTHING they can to make this team competent.
But our management has made legendary blunder after blunder... the vast majority of which have been shamefully defended by the majority of this fanbase.

Look how ridiculous this is...
Our team is CLEARLY not an elite team. We've made the playoffs ONCE in 10 years, and the future isn't looking much brighter... all as the richest team in the league.
And the majority of fans are/were STILL supportive of management through it all.
It's stranger than fiction.
I can say with a 100% straight face that it may be one of the most illogical acceptances of futility that the human race has ever encountered.

 

[seanlinden]

The great thing about the NHL is -- whether you get embarassed 7-1 on home ice on Hockey Night in Canada, or lose a close 3-2 game where you are a bounce or two away from winning, the result is the same -- you get 0 points, the other team gets 2.

The idea that we're all of a sudden going to question the progress we've been making because of 1 game (nevermind the fact that we're a very young team, coming off the high of the winter classic) is ludicrous.

The team sits 6th in the conference. We are 1 point behind the Red Wings for 5th. The team has solid goaltending for the first time in years. There are some obvious deficiencies, but that's the case for every team. Part of building is finding and addressing those deficiencies.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

The great thing about the NHL is -- whether you get embarassed 7-1 on home ice on Hockey Night in Canada, or lose a close 3-2 game where you are a bounce or two away from winning, the result is the same -- you get 0 points, the other team gets 2.

The idea that we're all of a sudden going to question the progress we've been making because of 1 game (nevermind the fact that we're a very young team, coming off the high of the winter classic) is ludicrous.

The team sits 6th in the conference. We are 1 point behind the Red Wings for 5th. The team has solid goaltending for the first time in years. There are some obvious deficiencies, but that's the case for every team. Part of building is finding and addressing those deficiencies.

Is this a joke post or a real post?
The OP was not judging this team off of one bad loss.
It's the OPPOSITE of that.
He's judging this team on a comparison after 42 games from 2 years ago.
You get that? Not ONE game that he's judging. But a total of EIGHTY FOUR games.

I'm ASTOUNDED that I had to point that out to you,

 

[seanlinden]

Is this a joke post or a real post?
The OP was not judging this team off of one bad loss.
It's the OPPOSITE of that.
He's judging this team on a comparison after 42 games from 2 years ago.
You get that? Not ONE game that he's judging. But a total of EIGHTY FOUR games.

I'm ASTOUNDED that I had to point that out to you,

Yet, this thread comes out the night of an embarassing loss.

Fact is, we're presently in a playoff spot. Teams don't go from making the playoffs to the top of the league instantly. That isn't something I should need to point out to you.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Yet, this thread comes out the night of an embarassing loss.

Fact is, we're presently in a playoff spot. Teams don't go from making the playoffs to the top of the league instantly. That isn't something I should need to point out to you.

You act like this team had a "year or two" of trouble.
We've made the playoffs ONCE over the past 10 years!!!!

Two years ago we were "the youngest team in the league" and were sitting in a similar spot after 42 games.
You aren't concerned with the lack of improvement?

Is there EVER a time where leaf fans will expect some sort of ****ing improvement?
"One bad game" he says.
NO!!!! IT'S TEN BAD ****ING YEARS!!!!!
Always lame excuses. Just endless LAME ****ING EXCUSES!!!!

 

[seanlinden]

You act like this team had a "year or two" of trouble.
We've made the playoffs ONCE over the past 10 years!!!!

Two years ago we were "the youngest team in the league" and were sitting in a similar spot after 42 games.
You aren't concerned with the lack of improvement?

Is there EVER a time where leaf fans will expect some sort of ****ing improvement?
"One bad game" he says.
NO!!!! IT'S TEN BAD ****ING YEARS!!!!!
Always lame excuses. Just endless LAME ****ING EXCUSES!!!!

Not at all. I act as though the past is just that, something we cannot change. All we can do, is figure out how to win more games tomorrow.

Am I concerned that we're not taking the next step? absolutely. We need to be better and there's no questioning that.

But, that doesn't mean we need to re-evaluate the whole philosophy of what we're trying to build, and it certainly doesn't mean you hit the panic button and intentionally start losing, under the guise of "rebuilding", when all you're doing is perpetuating the culture of losing that has infected this team for the last 10 years. It means we need to execute better, simple as that.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Not at all. I act as though the past is just that, something we cannot change. All we can do, is figure out how to win more games tomorrow.

Am I concerned that we're not taking the next step? absolutely. We need to be better and there's no questioning that.

But, that doesn't mean we need to re-evaluate the whole philosophy of what we're trying to build, and it certainly doesn't mean you hit the panic button and intentionally start losing, under the guise of "rebuilding", when all you're doing is perpetuating the culture of losing that has infected this team for the last 10 years. It means we need to execute better, simple as that.

Longest cup drought and least playoff games than any other team over the past 10 years.
Response?
"We don't need to re-evaluate our philosophy... I'm perfectly happy with those spectacular results. More of the same please".
Yeah, that's genius.

 

[seanlinden]

Longest cup drought and least playoff games than any other team over the past 10 years.
Response?
"We don't need to re-evaluate our philosophy... I'm perfectly happy with those spectacular results. More of the same please".
Yeah, that's genius.

We re-did our philosophy 2 years ago when we brought in Carlyle. You could make the case that we did the same when we fired Burke.

If you're going to re-strategize every two years, you will never move forward. As ownership, you have the responsibility to give a GM the full autonomy to run his team the way he sees fit, and let his philosophy play out. As a GM, you have the responsibility to put a cohesive group on the ice and behind the bench. That takes time, and is impossible to execute if you're going to change approaches every 2 years.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

We re-did our philosophy 2 years ago when we brought in Carlyle. You could make the case that we did the same when we fired Burke.

If you're going to re-strategize every two years, you will never move forward. As ownership, you have the responsibility to give a GM the full autonomy to run his team the way he sees fit, and let his philosophy play out. As a GM, you have the responsibility to put a cohesive group on the ice and behind the bench. That takes time, and is impossible to execute if you're going to change approaches every 2 years.

You look at the past and say "who cares, the past is the past".
I look at the past and say "we're making the same god damn mistakes all over again that have kept us as the pathetic punch line of the league for ages".

That's the difference.

I think that our philosophy HAS NOT changed. We simply fired one gm, and replaced him with another. But same crappy philosophy.
We are not a future elite team.
The longer we wait to FINALLY begin a legitimate rebuild, the longer we'll wait to finally be a bona fide elite nhl hockey team.
Overpaying people like Clarkson and Bozak is a step backwards, not forwards.

 

[hullsy47]

our rebuild has definitely plateaued a bit that's for sure.

regardless we are still a low-end playoff team.

Badly need a top 4 D though for example as one of the wholes to fill here.

plateaued ? never was a rebuild it was a BURKE retool ....this team will not make the playoffs as we stand right now .......fire carlyle ,or make some moves ......this is terrible ....500 hockey the rest of the way wil get us a lottery pick.......dam id build my team around ekblad and phaneuf on defense ....

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

Yeah we already know the leafs are terrible. Absolutely embarrassing

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

It's just so embarrassing!!!!!

 

[deleteme24]

Great post Stephen, thanks for sharing!

 

[pucky]

They are not a playoff team. The D is garbage. 40 and on occasion, 50 shots against does not make a playoff team. Kadri as your 2nd line C and as good as Bozak has been recently, he's still not a #1C. The team is not going to make the playoffs and you guys are delusional if you think it's playoff calibre.

It just took the late stretches of the season for reality to strike.

 

[pucky]

You look at the past and say "who cares, the past is the past".
I look at the past and say "we're making the same god damn mistakes all over again that have kept us as the pathetic punch line of the league for ages".

That's the difference.

I think that our philosophy HAS NOT changed. We simply fired one gm, and replaced him with another. But same crappy philosophy.
We are not a future elite team.
The longer we wait to FINALLY begin a legitimate rebuild, the longer we'll wait to finally be a bona fide elite nhl hockey team.
Overpaying people like Clarkson and Bozak is a step backwards, not forwards.

Good post. But, there are still delirious fans who praise Burke and use silly words like 'retool.' Burke et al. spoon fed a lot of kool-ade to the 'Leaf nation' fanatics who just want to believe any fairytale they're told.

Now, the team is owned by yet another indifferent corporation who will make money hand over fist with TV deals and increase prices on everything. Have fun supporting a mediocre product, Leaf fans. Inept management continues in Leaf land. Same old, same old. But, the $$ will flow right in.

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

They are not a playoff team. The D is garbage. 40 and on occasion, 50 shots against does not make a playoff team. Kadri as your 2nd line C and as good as Bozak has been recently, he's still not a #1C. The team is not going to make the playoffs and you guys are delusional if you think it's playoff calibre.

It just took the late stretches of the season for reality to strike.

Right on.

 

[TheProspector]

I'm not an alarmist, and I'm confident that the Leafs will make the playoffs this year. I don't care about regulation wins -- I care about points, and this team has been grinding it out and finding ways to get them.

That said, I think it's now clear that Carlyle's systems are inadequate.

This would be a 100pt team with hella exciting hockey if we had a guy like Paul Maurice. GA and GF would both go up.

But this team is being managed like plough horses, when the personnel we've got are thoroughbreds.

 

[Faltorvo]

And Kadri is 23 now.

The "young team" excuse is almost past the best before date.

Core of the team is not young, they are prime age players.

I'm not defending the team or the players but your statement is inaccurate.

 

[Faltorvo]

Yes, how many core players are younger than Kessel?

Kadri,Gard,Berny,Reim,Reil,,,,IIRC

 

[Pi]

Kadri,Gard,Berny,Reim,Reil,,,,IIRC

Kadri is a #2C that sucks defensively. He will likely top out as another Grabovski.

This team needs a franchise centre. If this team keeps playing like this, we are well on our way to use this draft as a prep for our real tank next year.

Why?

A) One of our goalies will be traded and this team cannot win a single game with a back up goalie if they are continually outshot 2:1.

B) Our defence likely won't have improved at all besides Rielly getting accustomed to the NHL.

C) There is no guarantee that the goalie we keep can sustain playing at a .925 clip despite the team getting outplayed on a nightly basis.

Look at Ottawa...Anderson goes from elite to garbage in a year in front of a bad D.

We have one hell of a chance to grab Mcdavid if we play our cards right.

 

[CarknerCountry]

Kadri,Gard,Berny,Reim,Reil,,,,IIRC

i feel better as a sen fan Karlsson,Lehner,Ceci,Zibby,Turris,Cowen

 

[Mess]

Wilson and Carlyle are equals. There is nothing improved about Randy Carlyle. I said this when we hired him.

We have all the right pieces. We just need a coach who knows how to use them.

What if we don't have the right pieces, and who decides that ?

Don't the results of the team reflect on the players that play the game? Maybe self reflection will show the players have flaws in their games that prevent a team from being successful consistently.

 

[Billy6]

Is this really surprising to anyone? Really?

This team didn't rebuild ever. After the Quinn years they desperately hung onto the decent team they had had under Quinn, a team BTW that was still never good enough to compete for a Cup, despite the overwhelming and obvious evidence that their best chance to win had clearly passed them by and the core pieces were gettng older and should have been traded for young players and draft picks.

When finally those players moved on, in most cases wth nothing coming back in return, the team was forced to go another route, but instead of doing the smart thing and doing a proper rebuild they tried to half ass a quick turnaround to make the team what it was under Quinn, a decent team that really had no shot at winning anything significant to attempt to justify the outrageous ticket prices that our corporate ownership charges us to watch this annual mess.

I've come to the conclusion that making the playoffs last year was the worst thing that could have ever happened to this franchise because it gave people false hope. Hope that this team was anything more than what they are which is a bubble playoff team with no chance of competing for a Cup and worse yet not bad enough to get into the top five in the draft.

Still though people come on here and defend the players on this team by saying stuff like " we have all the pieces" like I read on the first page of this thread or pretending like we are one player away from becoming a legitimate contender, while in reality it is not like that. Not even close.

When people, especially Leaf management and ownership, finally figure out that they cannot half ass a rebuild and try to build a team through free agency then, and only then, will this team possibly get to where we all want them to be.