What a Difference Two Years Makes

[Suntouchable13]

Burke would have been a better GM as not only would we not have Clarkson but we no Kessel or Phaneuf either

So we would never have any good players under Burke? Who would he replace Kessel and Phaneuf with? Burke is a joke!

 

[wulfio*]

I'd replace Phaneuf with a big pylon to stick in front of our net. Will have the same effect in our zone. And with the money we save, I would fix all our holes up front and with the rest of the D.

 

[Mess]

I think we need more veteran leadership like an injection of a Dan Cleary, Mattias Ohlund, people like that. I remember reading about how Victor Hedman was really crediting his development with a lot of tutelage from Ohlund, that's a veteran voice I think would supplement Carlyle's barking all day long, so the group knows how to be a pro, learn savvy tricks, keep an even keel during down turns. I also wouldn't mind Jaromir Jagr in here as a teacher who can contribute.

I suggested the Leafs sign former Dallas captain Brendan Morrow as a UFA this past summer to fill out their 3rd line and add that veteran presence that you speak of. A real character player that plays hard and showed great leadership.

He eventually signed late for $1.5 mil with the Blues.

 

[blueberrie]

21.6m to ink 10 guys.

Bolo 4
Kuli 3
McClem 2
Holy 1.5
DAmi 1
Ranger 1
Frans 3.25
Gards 2
Reims 3

20.5m for 9 contracts there.

Ray Fraser ,smith let walk.

Next year looks a lot like this year, roster wise.

I really hope not.

It's a bubble playoff team who gets outplayed and outchanced almost every game, no idea why we'd be so willing to lock down our top 9 and D core for the next couple years.

Where's the improvement going to come from?

 

[blueberrie]

This is the topic of the thread. The problem isn't Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul and the young guys getting older and more expensive. Burkes retool was successful. The Leafs have a developed core. The problem and we've been through it before is that Nonis has started to ruin what Burke built with horrible asset management making mistakes with Bosak, Grabo, Lilies, Komi, Clarkson, buyouts, cap space, second rounders, Bolland (injury hindsight not Nonis' fault), MacArthur (hindsight). The Leafs have the same record for 2 years and Nonis has been in charge for those two years. It's on him.

The retool was successful. The post retool has been a disaster so far.

Successful by what standards? We're going into year 6 and we've barely made more progress then teams that have just outright tanked the whole time.

We still need upgrades on our franchise forward and defencemen to contend and frankly the players we're looking for are the hardest to acquire.

We don't have any prospects in the pipeline who look to fill those holes, and those types of players are going to cripple other areas of the team to trade for.


As Mess has been pointing out all this retool has done is is increase the age of our core therefore opening our cup window sooner, while skipping the years of development where we can count on on-ice improvement, at the cost of skipping the cheap RFA deals and bringing our core to UFA sooner.

 

[rdawg1234]

Successful by what standards? We're going into year 6 and we've barely made more progress then teams that have just outright tanked the whole time.

We still need upgrades on our franchise forward and defencemen to contend and frankly the players we're looking for are the hardest to acquire.

We don't have any prospects in the pipeline who look to fill those holes, and those types of players are going to cripple other areas of the team to trade for.


As Mess has been pointing out all this retool has done is is increase the age of our core therefore opening our cup window sooner, while skipping the years of development where we can count on on-ice improvement, at the cost of skipping the cheap RFA deals and bringing our core to UFA sooner.

Pretty negative view of the situation.

Our defense has a very bright future with 3 legitimate NHL prospects(Percy, Grannberg and Finn) how good they will be will take time to discover, but the cupboards arent EMPTY.

Our forward prospects are piss poor, but we can get to a point where we only need to acquire one piece, so we can build expendable assets to do so(franson+Reimer for example are expendable).

teams that have outright tanked havent proven anything, Edmonton is not one year from being in the palyoffs, they have ALOT of moves to make(most of their top forwards are very poor defensively, the team is all offense)

I also wouldn't call this year 6 of the build, maybe since burke got here, but really we've been a competitive team since the 2012-2013 season, before that we had too many holes.

 

[wulfio*]

Pretty negative view of the situation.

Our defense has a very bright future with 3 legitimate NHL prospects(Percy, Grannberg and Finn) how good they will be will take time to discover, but the cupboards arent EMPTY.

Our forward prospects are piss poor, but we can get to a point where we only need to acquire one piece, so we can build expendable assets to do so(franson+Reimer for example are expendable).

teams that have outright tanked havent proven anything, Edmonton is not one year from being in the palyoffs, they have ALOT of moves to make(most of their top forwards are very poor defensively, the team is all offense)

I also wouldn't call this year 6 of the build, maybe since burke got here, but really we've been a competitive team since the 2012-2013 season, before that we had too many holes.

Colorado, Montreal, Tampa

 

[The Legend]

I hope not! Been there, done that, it failed!

Let the youth age and develop together! Substitute more youth where we need to as we go!

No more veterans coming to Toronto to fade into retirement!

I know, you said getting a little bit older, by the way!

6500 posts, wow your period key must be worn out.
Here's the situation. Burke inherited an absolute mess. He turned all that absolute garbage into JVR, Kessel, Phaneuf, Gardiner, Kardri, Lupul, Grabo, Reimer (kept him), Franson, Reily, D'Amigo, all future low picks, some other minor pieces and a lot of his own crap left over for Nonis. BUT, starting with what he started with 5 years later that's a pretty good core to work with. His team with a few very minor tweaks by Nonis finally make the playoffs last year.

Burke built a great core considering what he started with and Nonis is making things worse through horrible asset management.

I agree with the Nonis point. I can't truly commend Burke for his work when there was so much bluster and so many horrible free agent signings.

 

[Faltorvo]

I agree with the Nonis point. I can't truly commend Burke for his work when there was so much bluster and so many horrible free agent signings.

We are 5 points from picking 6th overall,hrmmm.

 

[Bluejaysfan*]

We are 5 points from picking 6th overall,hrmmm.

Show no heart for Reinhart?

 

[Shimso]

Show no heart for Reinhart?

I think that's the best & worst tanking rhyme I've ever heard

 

[Faltorvo]

Show no heart for Reinhart?

Bad for Ekblad?

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

Our defense has a very bright future with 3 legitimate NHL prospects(Percy, Grannberg and Finn) how good they will be will take time to discover, but the cupboards arent EMPTY.

These guys are nothing special yet. Maybe they'll be 2nd pair defencemen if things turn out well, but chances are low that any of them will become a top pairing stud magically. Finn is doing fine in the OHL but already has had a tough time with injuries, Percy is doing decently in the A but not spectacularly well, and Granberg - who's a year older - has a whopping 3 points in the A. Nothing suggests they'll be tearing up the league anytime soon, and they sure aren't anything different from what most NHL organizations have prospect-wise.

 

[leafs in five]

I really hope not.

It's a bubble playoff team who gets outplayed and outchanced almost every game, no idea why we'd be so willing to lock down our top 9 and D core for the next couple years.

Where's the improvement going to come from?

haven't you heard that the cap is going up?

 

[daveleaf]

Thomas never won a Cup. He played in the 03 finals and that's it from what I remember.

I don't remember, part of me thinks that he played for a Devils cup team.

 

[therealkoho]

That isn't helping your case. Why does it matter, as that only helps explain the contracts themselves, but ignores the question at hand as to which is more beneficial to a team?

If one player, the younger one is a RFA and the older one is a UFA that tips the scales further towards the cheaper and younger player as the better option with equal stats\contribution.

If you take the younger player you also get an additional +$2 mil in extra cap space to spend on additional players and you get development incremental individual improvement potential so points and contribution can increase also as the player is not in his prime.

The problem is the older player is capped maxed out salary wise and he is also essentially contribution maxed out unless you believe that 30-40 goal and PPG player Kessel is about to become 50 goal Rocket Trophy 100 point Kessel when his new contract kicks in. If a player like Kessel contributes the same as the past and does it for +$2.5 more cap then your team isn't improving overall simply by paying your own players more money.

So the bottom line point is that the team with the younger player with the cheaper cap hit and similar production is an advantage to the team that has him.. Leafs accelerated rebuild now with older player(s) is a disadvantage cap wise for the team competitiveness because cap $$ are higher because the player is further along in his career.

how do you get these RFA's you speak of? offer them the moon and stars and give up the 4 firsts and then so much for the "good contract" and the ability to re-stock

Kessel is in his prime

Phaneuf is in his prime

JVR is in his prime

Lupul is in his Prime

Bozak or Weiss.....easy decision and as I recall wasn't Weiss the better choice in LeafLand, guy has been lost in Detroit amongst that supporting cast

Kadri may yet wear the mantle of super-stardom and isn't close to his prime

jeepers man stop with the negativity

their guys play there, our guys play here, if you like their guys better go and cheer for them and quit spreading the hemlock here.............

simply put the grass isn't always greener, wishes aren't horses that win races and this supposition is simply put, de-constructive daydreaming that produces nothing nor will change anything............

Edmonton has won zero and right now now it looks like it's going to stay that way, same with Dallas, same with the Islanders

 

[Faltorvo]

how do you get these RFA's you speak of? offer them the moon and stars and give up the 4 firsts and then so much for the "good contract" and the ability to re-stock

Kessel is in his prime

Phaneuf is in his prime

JVR is in his prime

Lupul is in his Prime

Bozak or Weiss.....easy decision and as I recall wasn't Weiss the better choice in LeafLand, guy has been lost in Detroit amongst that supporting cast

Kadri may yet wear the mantle of super-stardom and isn't close to his prime

jeepers man stop with the negativity

their guys play there, our guys play here, if you like their guys better go and cheer for them and quit spreading the hemlock here.............

simply put the grass isn't always greener, wishes aren't horses that win races and this supposition is simply put, de-constructive daydreaming that produces nothing nor will change anything............

Edmonton has won zero and right now now it looks like it's going to stay that way, same with Dallas, same with the Islanders

Well that's the scary part no?

You just named our core and they are in their prime.

We are cap maxed and 5 points from drafting 6th overall.

 

[ULF_55]

Kessel is in his prime
Phaneuf is in his prime
JVR is in his prime
Lupul is in his Prime

Well that's the scary part no?

You just named our core and they are in their prime.

We are cap maxed and 5 points from drafting 6th overall.

I've been saying this and people keep trying to deny it.

Bozak
Gunnarsson
Gleason
Kulemin
Bolland
McClement
Clarkson
Ranger

All in their prime.

And Franson is less than a year younger than Gunnarsson.

 

[blueberrie]

how do you get these RFA's you speak of?

You draft them. Drafting your core instead of trading for them gives you a longer time to put together a contender. You get young cheap RFA talent that will continually improve while you surround them with a good supporting class.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

I've been saying this and people keep trying to deny it.

Bozak
Gunnarsson
Gleason
Kulemin
Bolland
McClement
Clarkson
Ranger

All in their prime.

And Franson is less than a year younger than Gunnarsson.

That's frightening

Our team doesn't have a lot of flexibility nor do we have a lot of youngsters in the cupboard

I just don't see enough growth within the core of this team to see any significant improvements in comparison with the rest of the league

 

[Member 23807]

The problem is pretty clear. You can shuffle bodies on the bottom 2 forward lines and bottom 2 d-men pairings all you like, nothing will change until we get true top 6 talent on this team, both at the forward positions and defense.

What scares me is we've just resigned Phaneuf to a long-term deal and although he's having a great year, how many times have you seen him 1 or 2 steps behind the play? I get it, he plays against the opponents top lines. It doesn't change the fact that at his age now, he still finds himself falling behind on too many plays, imagine what it will look like 2-3 years into the contract??

The sad reality is that this club, aside from perhaps Kessel and Lupul, have no top 6 talent to speak of upfront. If I'm Nonis, I'm looking to package up Reimer, Kadri and Gardiner for a 1st line centerman, something this team hasn't had since Sundin was here. Even then, that's assuming we could even get such a deal.

I know Leaf fans, myself included, don't want to hear this, but we are at least 5-10 years away from even competing for the stanley cup. I hope I am proven wrong.

 

[Faltorvo]

how do you get these RFA's you speak of? offer them the moon and stars and give up the 4 firsts and then so much for the "good contract" and the ability to re-stock

Kessel is in his prime

Phaneuf is in his prime

JVR is in his prime

Lupul is in his Prime

Bozak or Weiss.....easy decision and as I recall wasn't Weiss the better choice in LeafLand, guy has been lost in Detroit amongst that supporting cast

Kadri may yet wear the mantle of super-stardom and isn't close to his prime

jeepers man stop with the negativity

their guys play there, our guys play here, if you like their guys better go and cheer for them and quit spreading the hemlock here.............

simply put the grass isn't always greener, wishes aren't horses that win races and this supposition is simply put, de-constructive daydreaming that produces nothing nor will change anything............

Edmonton has won zero and right now now it looks like it's going to stay that way, same with Dallas, same with the Islanders

Burke could have inked Kessel to one of those long term cap saving deals?

 

[hockeyfanz*]

The problem is pretty clear. You can shuffle bodies on the bottom 2 forward lines and bottom 2 d-men pairings all you like, nothing will change until we get true top 6 talent on this team, both at the forward positions and defense.

What scares me is we've just resigned Phaneuf to a long-term deal and although he's having a great year, how many times have you seen him 1 or 2 steps behind the play? I get it, he plays against the opponents top lines. It doesn't change the fact that at his age now, he still finds himself falling behind on too many plays, imagine what it will look like 2-3 years into the contract??

The sad reality is that this club, aside from perhaps Kessel and Lupul, have no top 6 talent to speak of upfront. If I'm Nonis, I'm looking to package up Reimer, Kadri and Gardiner for a 1st line centerman, something this team hasn't had since Sundin was here. Even then, that's assuming we could even get such a deal.

I know Leaf fans, myself included, don't want to hear this, but we are at least 5-10 years away from even competing for the stanley cup. I hope I am proven wrong.

Agreed. Good post. I even argue that the talent they do have is not a good mix. They have some undesirable immovable contracts too, IMO. The top 6 is possibly the poorest defensively responsible top 6 amongst playoff teams. They don't have any blue chippers other than Reilly who looks like the real deal. And I am not a big fan of 7 more years of Dion as captain of this team.

 

[Diatomic]

Burke could have inked Kessel to one of those long term cap saving deals?

He could have, but it's very rare seeing a 21 year old get a 10 year contract

 

[darrylsittler27]

The sad thing,not much can be done.

We can't retank and now the falsehood of retool is being reaped. It is doubtful any of our core will ever play better than now and for many this will be their peak year. The only thing is if a new GM is brought in, declaring our core as ineffectual and starts trading them for younger cheaper players.As our younger players improve our core will decline offsetting each other. We are pressed up against the cap and Bolland may not even want to resign. With each year that passes our core will have less value. Burke scewed us from day one and Nonnis hemmed himself in even with the Bernier trade and the Clarkson signing. I see no progress here, if anything we are paralyzed now, like deer in the headlights.

The truth is, not much can be done now but the idea of retool is now debunct. After 6 years this is one of the worst teams in the NHL devoid of identity and still seeking a number one C. I call that utter failure and many now are waking up to it.Still planning that PARADE now Tim?