Pre-Game Talk: Week of On the Road Again... (@VAN, @SJS, @ANA)

[Pokecheque]

When was the last time that the Avs played a good game? Is it against NJ?

They were fine against the Preds, apart from their usual first period swoon IIRC.

 

[Balthazar]

They were fine against the Preds, apart from their usual first period swoon IIRC.

I didn't think they were fine, especially not for playing against a struggling team that is sitting at 31 overall.

I'd even say that in the NJ game it was more about the Devils being bad than the Avs being good.

Even at their best the Avs are playing like a wildcard team. That's scary.

 

[dahrougem2]

I didn't think they were fine, especially not for playing against a struggling team that is sitting at 31 overall.

I'd even say that in the NJ game it was more about the Devils being bad than the Avs being good.

Even at their best the Avs are playing like a wildcard team. That's scary.

This line of thinking can be used to discredit any good team. The Avs were genuinely good in that game.

 

[henchman21]

As I see the West... Minny looks like the best team. If it has clicked with Rossi, they have the requisite pieces. Vegas is playing a big above their heads... but LA, Edmonton, and Dallas are all playing really good hockey. Edmonton and LA need goaltending to hold up, but the potential and play is there. Winnipeg has slowed down, and I don't think they are that good. But their start has them way ahead right now. Vegas is kinda like that Avs in that I don't think they are that good, but they are finding ways to win instead of finding ways to lose. Vancouver has the talent and roster to be better than they are, but they are kinda treading water. I think eventually it clicks with them.

I just can't put the Avs better than 5th in the west right now, and really I think they are closer to 7th or 8th. I don't think the teams at the top are world beaters or anything, but they look a hell of a lot better right now.

 

[RoyIsALegend]

They were fine against the Preds, apart from their usual first period swoon IIRC.

We allowed a season high 39 shots in the Preds game.

The same Preds who are the worst team in the league.

We weren’t fine.

 

[Alienblood]

They were fine against the Preds, apart from their usual first period swoon IIRC.

Blackwood stole that game

 

[henchman21]

IMO the last good and complete game the Avs played was against Vegas at the end of November. Prior to that would have been the Caps game a few before. There have not been many games where I'd say the Avs have been great. Which isn't the end of the world if you can find ways to win. There just hasn't been much dominance unless a team craps the bed in net (which also tends to happen a lot in the NHL lately).

 

[dahrougem2]

CMac still has a lot of work to do IF this team was to ever get healthy.

Drouin - MacKinnon - Rantanen
Lehkonen - Mittelstadt - Nichushkin
Colton - XXX - XXX
Wood/Kivi - Kelly - O'Connor

Toews - Makar
Girard - Manson
XXX - Malinski

Blackwood
Wedgewood

We're looking at two third liners, ideally a 3C to shift Colton to LW, and a 3rd pair PKer and that's IF the Avs ever get Drouin back from literal death.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

IMO the last good and complete game the Avs played was against Vegas at the end of November. Prior to that would have been the Caps game a few before. There have not been many games where I'd say the Avs have been great. Which isn't the end of the world if you can find ways to win. There just hasn't been much dominance unless a team craps the bed in net (which also tends to happen a lot in the NHL lately).

I don't think the team has really been "the team" yet. They started the season much farther from their final form than any other Avs group in recent memory.

I mean, it's not even new years and we traded out our two top goalies in the entire system. We were missing half our top six wingers for a month or so and then had RosCo and JD go down. Manson's down. We brought in Brannstrom, CDH, and Ludvig but to be honest, I'd almost rather have Middleton paired with Malinski once Manson's back.

I feel like like the middle six has been a bit of a mess all year because of the injuries and suspensions. It's just hard to grade with that much crap going on.

 

[sethro109]

With Wags on waiver, does that mean we're getting two callups? I doubt JD is coming back, he didn't travel with the team..

 

[henchman21]

I don't think the team has really been "the team" yet. They started the season much farther from their final form than any other Avs group in recent memory.

I mean, it's not even new years and we traded out our two top goalies in the entire system. We were missing half our top six wingers for a month or so and then had RosCo and JD go down. Manson's down. We brought in Brannstrom, CDH, and Ludvig but to be honest, I'd almost rather have Middleton paired with Malinski once Manson's back.

Sure there has been a bumpy start with injuries, absences, goaltending, etc. That's also not anything really new either. The Avs are consistently one of the top 5 most injured teams, PAP leaves have happened with shocking regularity, and the situation in net hasn't been stable since Varly (and was it even then?). This team is just off, and IMO a lot of it has to do with the pieces not fitting the system and the depth just not being that good. As an example, I think Ivan is a great story and I've liked him prior to him being a part of the org... but he really doesn't fit the progression of normally entering the NHL. We're filled with depth castoffs who nobody really wanted and we are relying on them... Kelly, Kiviranta, Wagner.

It just adds up (to me) to a team that is just pretty average and reminiscent of the Penguins a few years ago. Plenty of high end talent, but even more questions around it... with a coach who has won so a team is very reluctant to make a change.

 

[RoyIsALegend]

With Wags on waiver, does that mean we're getting two callups? I doubt JD is coming back, he didn't travel with the team..

Wagner just goes on waivers every 9 games to keep his demotion to Loveland a possibility whenever we get healthier.

 

[the_fan]

I think the Avs are missing Landy more than we thought they would. Need the captain to pull the team together when things aren’t going right. We see time after time when things are going wrong, Nate doesn’t really provide leadership. He gets frustrated, yells at the refs or argues with Bednar etc…

Makar is somewhat a leader but he seems like a quiet type who doesn’t really say much. We need Landy on the ice. He can be around the teammates in the locker room and stuff, but it’s not the same as him being on the ice. I was so wrong when few years ago I was saying that Nate should be the captain instead of Landy.

 

[RoyIsALegend]

I think the Avs are missing Landy more than we thought they would. Need the captain to pull the team together when things aren’t going right. We see time after time when things are going wrong, Nate doesn’t really provide leadership. He gets frustrated, yells at the refs or argues with Bednar etc…

Makar is somewhat a leader but he seems like a quiet type who doesn’t really say much. We need Landy on the ice. He can be around the teammates in the locker room and stuff, but it’s not the same as him being on the ice. I was so wrong when few years ago I was saying that Nate should be the captain instead of Landy.

Not just Landy, but we’ve lost invaluable leaders like EJ and Cogliano as well.

We haven’t replaced any of those 3 in the leadership department.

 

[Balthazar]

Landy has been missing for 3 years, I sure hope he's not the reason why they play like that.

What we're seeing is the lack of depth and it's only going to get worse.

 

[henchman21]

Not just Landy, but we’ve lost invaluable leaders like EJ and Cogliano as well.

We haven’t replaced any of those 3 in the leadership department.

Are you telling me that Nuke is not a good leader?

The C stands for Cocaine now.

 

[henchman21]

I think the lack of leadership plays a role, but IMO that is not an excuse. MacK, Makar, Rants, Lehky, Toews, etc. these guys need to be leaders. Even if Landy comes back, he's not going to be the same. EJ isn't coming back. The Avs don't have the space to bring in vets who are impact players and provide it. It has to come from the group here. If they can't develop it, it won't ever come. If they are that reliant on the previous group, then they won't ever get it again.

I think the guy who needs to step up in that area more than anybody else is Makar.

 

[the_fan]

Landy has been missing for 3 years, I sure hope he's not the reason why they play like that.

What we're seeing is the lack of depth and it's only going to get worse.

The depth will improve when we get Drouin, Wood and hopefully Landy back, and Manson on D. This season started out shitty for the Avs. All the injuries and bad goaltending didn’t allow for a good start to the season. We had a very favorable schedule in October.

It was a type of schedule where the Avs could have put themselves in good position in the central, but instead struggled with injuries and bad goaltending. Now we have to play catch up probably rest of the season just to make the playoffs. I said it before, but I think this is not our season, even if we make the playoffs, probably not going too far unless we finally get healthy and get Landy back, and most importantly stay heallthy, then we’ll have a chance with improved goaltending

 

[henchman21]

The depth will improve when we get Drouin, Wood and hopefully Landy back, and Manson on D. This season started out shitty for the Avs. All the injuries and bad goaltending didn’t allow for a good start to the season. We had a very favorable schedule in October.

It was a type of schedule where the Avs could have put themselves in good position in the central, but instead struggled with injuries and bad goaltending. Now we have to play catch up probably rest of the season just to make the playoffs. I said it before, but I think this is not our season, even if we make the playoffs, probably not going too far unless we finally get healthy and get Landy back, and most importantly stay heallthy, then we’ll have a chance with improved goaltending

That schedule wasn't nearly as easy as it was made to sound. The 'bad' teams in there were not nearly as bad as previous years.. IE instead of the Sharks not even being a .300 team, they are more of a .410 team. Then the Seattle/Utah/Isles/Ottawa group.. instead of being ~.400 teams they are pushing .500 and in some cases pushing up to the playoffs. The whole weakness was always a myth. It wasn't an overly strong schedule to start, but it wasn't overly weak either.

On getting guys back, sure they'll be back, but others will go out too. The injury bug is just who this team is and will always be.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Landy has been missing for 3 years, I sure hope he's not the reason why they play like that.

What we're seeing is the lack of depth and it's only going to get worse.

1. Cale doesn't need anything added to his plate.
2. Nate has the emotional IQ of a two year old suffering the come down off a suger-induced high way past nappy time.
3. Rantanen... would be a bold choice. I could've gotten behind it if he actually followed through on his promise to Georgiev.
It's been three years with nobody stepping up to the plate. Which brings me to this....

I think the lack of leadership plays a role, but IMO that is not an excuse. MacK, Makar, Rants, Lehky, Toews, etc. these guys need to be leaders. Even if Landy comes back, he's not going to be the same. EJ isn't coming back. The Avs don't have the space to bring in vets who are impact players and provide it. It has to come from the group here. If they can't develop it, it won't ever come. If they are that reliant on the previous group, then they won't ever get it again.

I think the guy who needs to step up in that area more than anybody else is Makar.

I've often wondered about just how important these roles truly are in professional sports and just how much of it has been romanticized by jouralists throughout the years. For all of Landy's wonderful abilities, it was Cogliano who gave the speech that made the difference. That's not a knock on Landy by any means at all, but rather just showing that it doesn't have to be a C that does the leadership. For all the crap that we have rightfully given RyJo... what he did for Josh Manson is the absolute epitomy of leadership.

Is the C as imperative as we make it out to be? Or is it a bit overblown/dramaticized?

 

[henchman21]

I've often wondered about just how important these roles truly are in professional sports and just how much of it has been romanticized by jouralists throughout the years. For all of Landy's wonderful abilities, it was Cogliano who gave the speech that made the difference. That's not a knock on Landy by any means at all, but rather just showing that it doesn't have to be a C that does the leadership. For all the crap that we have rightfully given RyJo... what he did for Josh Manson is the absolute epitomy of leadership.

Is the C as imperative as we make it out to be? Or is it a bit overblown/dramaticized?

How I'd state it... captains are the most overrated and romanticized spot in sports, until they are not. New York right now is a classic example of when leadership falls apart.

 

[Bender]

If there's a locker room issue 'still' even after moving out the goalies, then that's really the first thing that needs to be addressed.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I don’t think Mackinnon gets enough credit for how much he has matured over the last few years.

Landy is obviously irreplaceable, but Mackinnon’s a big boy fully capable of leading this team. Since winning the cup I see much more patience with him. He doesn’t snap as easily. He took Ritchie to the Vail camp. Kovalenko spoke super highly of him and how welcoming he is. His interviews recently are completely different.

I get he wears his heart on his sleeve and can get over emotional sometimes but the guy is a Stanley Cup winning, hart trophy winning superstar who has spent his entire career in a locker room learning from Gabe and the other Avs greats and spends every summer with Sidney Crosby. The guy has to have some leadership qualities outside of just his work ethic.

Maybe I’m blind, but I see a lot of growth with him in the last 2-3 years.

 

[the_fan]

That schedule wasn't nearly as easy as it was made to sound. The 'bad' teams in there were not nearly as bad as previous years.. IE instead of the Sharks not even being a .300 team, they are more of a .410 team. Then the Seattle/Utah/Isles/Ottawa group.. instead of being ~.400 teams they are pushing .500 and in some cases pushing up to the playoffs. The whole weakness was always a myth. It wasn't an overly strong schedule to start, but it wasn't overly weak either.

On getting guys back, sure they'll be back, but others will go out too. The injury bug is just who this team is and will always be.

That’s true, that’s why I said we’ll be fine if everyone comes back (including Landy) and this team stays healthy which is a big if

 

[expatriatedtexan]

If there's a locker room issue 'still' even after moving out the goalies, then that's really the first thing that needs to be addressed.

I think there is a difference between "locker room issue" and lack of leadership. However, it's easy to see how a lack of leadership can result in a locker room issue, it doesn't always. Heck, even with a great C there will be locker room issues and much failure.

Some people call Mark Messier the great Captains of all time.

Those people do not live in Vancouver, I assure you.

[edit...please do not take this as slamming on Mess...Dude won more cups than all but 5 NHL teams. Montreal (24), Toronto (13 - but none since Jesus was a carpenter), Detroit (11 - I feel sick), Boston (6) and Chicago (6). I also know he did not play on Gretzky's line so he wasn't leeching of of Wayne. I just think his "leadership" comes from one game. His NYR promise and follow up performance. From that episode sprang the legend of one of the greatest captains in NHL history. Please, Cogliano played just as important a role for the Avs.]