We Have one Holl of a problem

[FriendlyGhost92]

If he isn't traded, we can send him to GR.

I mean you could, but the cap hit for burying him is double the hit for buying him out.

Financially the team will still owe him $3.4M whether it's a buyout or a burial. To me, the buyout looks better to other players than a burial.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

He's bad, but I feel like we've come a long way when we can actually talk about the #6D as a problem that's near the top 10 of our priorities to improve.

Realistically I think we're stuck with him until the offseason. It is what it is.

This is where I am at. If we are looking to improve the roster I would prefer to aim a bit higher than our number 6 defensemen. I don't think he will be an issue after this season. He is a very cheap buy-out or can be sent to GR. I agree with those that say we should try Buium or Tuomisto at some point in that spot.

All this said, I think you can improve the bottom pair without acquiring a righty. If Aljo has taught us anything, it is better to have two good lefties on a pair than a bad righty. This theory of having a righty on each pair breaks down when that righty isn't actually good at hockey.

 

[Macoun]

Watching him play I can’t believe he recent the contract he did from Yzerman. The only thing I noticed he does decent is on the penalty kill but even then I think we have 4 guys better than him at that on D

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

How many buyouts can we use in the offseason?

Can we buyout holl, tank, and compher?

You can get an asset out of JT at half retention.

 

[LongTimeDRWF]

If we send Holl to GR, his cap hit against us is $2.4m
If we buy him out, it's $1.1m for the next two years.

I just bury him in GR and be done with it if we get to that point but I'm with @newfy and others, I'm fine with him as the #7. I'm with pretty much everyone, though, that I'd really like to see us get someone else in that sixth spot for the rest of this season.

The 4 nations tournament is kind of a pain in the butt here, because I'd want to give Tuomisto a look before really going after a trade. Going with 3 rookies on the blueline seems kinda crazy, but if he's an upgrade over Holl he's an upgrade, and I think it would only be good for us to get a look at him.

Watson has been saying Tuo is improving, a recent write up on a potential all home-grown D for the wings...might not be 100% ready, but the wings have an open roster spot, then maybe can get these guys some cups of coffee to get them to re-double their improvement efforts...30ish games left, should not be hard to get a decent cup of coffee for all three GR D-Yutes, start with Tuo, then see if you need to add a RHD or not, he can always go back down to work on holes...

Red Wings On Course to Have All-Yzerman Draft Picks on Defense

Check out the video of why Albert Johansson has grabbed a spot in the top four

detroithockeynow.com

I am sure Todd is pushing SY to see what goodies are in GR that can help given the ones he has seen to date...

 

[Snuggs]

EASIEST thing is to try a Griffin till or near TDL, then Wings would know what to do as far as trade or stand pat depending on how the young fella plays for a few weeks.

Personally, I'd make a move right now and waive Holl or package him in a deal giving up something.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Holl had games where he looked ok in the #6 spot, but holy hell has he been extra bad lately.

I'm kinda hoping he's sick as a reason for his play?

 

[RRhoads]

I mean you could, but the cap hit for burying him is double the hit for buying him out.

Financially the team will still owe him $3.4M whether it's a buyout or a burial. To me, the buyout looks better to other players than a burial.

It's also twice as long if you buy out.

 

[Snuggs]

It's also twice as long if you buy out.

I wouldn't buy him out, he'd still have a role as that call up guy from GR's. If someone picks him up along the waiver wire at some point, so be it.

Buying him out hurts, the hurt a little longer, waiving him and sending him to the AHL does save SOME cap space, not a ton.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

It's also twice as long if you buy out.

I get that, but I don't see a way that we can possibly spend $104M in cap with a roster that will likely feature all of Kasper, Danielson, MBN, and ASP on ELCs, plus Cossa and Mazur on almost certain minimal secondary deals.

The only big name coming up between now and the end of a Holl buyout is Edvinsson. He could get a $10.5M contract starting in 26-27, and it would be like nothing happened when you factor in $8.5M for the cap hike and $1.05M coming off the books in Abdelkader's buyout.

My overall point is, I don't think we're gonna be close to the cap ceiling to have to worry about Holl's $1.1M buyout.

 

[jkutswings]

I get that, but I don't see a way that we can possibly spend $104M in cap with a roster that will likely feature all of Kasper, Danielson, MBN, and ASP on ELCs, plus Cossa and Mazur on almost certain minimal secondary deals.

The only big name coming up between now and the end of a Holl buyout is Edvinsson. He could get a $10.5M contract starting in 26-27, and it would be like nothing happened when you factor in $8.5M for the cap hike and $1.05M coming off the books in Abdelkader's buyout.

My overall point is, I don't think we're gonna be close to the cap ceiling to have to worry about Holl's $1.1M buyout.

Oh sure. Just preemptively crush the dreams of Connor McDavid, getting to play for the red and white on a record setting $20M cap hit.

Party pooper.

 

[Macoun]

Buying him out just extends his time on our payroll so let’s just tough it out one more season with him as a 7th d or send him to GR again.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

$26M in cap next year and the only FA of any note is Kane. A Holl buyout would put them up to $28.2M.

ELCs on the roster include Edvinsson, Kasper, and probably Mazur and Cossa.

That buyout is very doable and better off doing than losing a pick.

Where do you get 26 million from? I wanna see the math lol

We should try Tuomisto in his roll. He’s old enough now that he’s either good enough to play in the NHL or he likely never will be.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Where do you get 26 million from? I wanna see the math lol

It's as simple as going to Cap Wages and adding up our NHL contracted players in 25-26, our Abdelkader buyout, and then subtracting it by $95.5M...

Though to be fair it looks like I may be off a bit as I forgot to include Kane's bonuses that don't go into effect until next year. (I think. I can't remember how that deal worked out)

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

It's as simple as going to Cap Wages and adding up our NHL contracted players in 25-26, our Abdelkader buyout, and then subtracting it by $95.5M...

Though to be fair it looks like I may be off a bit as I forgot to include Kane's bonuses that don't go into effect until next year. (I think. I can't remember how that deal worked out)

Well when I go there to do that I don’t get anywhere close to 26 million

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Well when I go there to do that I don’t get anywhere close to 26 million

Then I guess your calculator ain't working lol.

 

[Holden Caufield]

. Also, the next man up from GR is most likely Lagesson, not some prospect to get excited about.

I thought Lagesson was injured ? But honestly I don’t really know what is going on there.
Yes give him a shot. If he is available.

This is where I am at. If we are looking to improve the roster I would prefer to aim a bit higher than our number 6 defensemen. I don't think he will be an issue after this season. He is a very cheap buy-out or can be sent to GR. I agree with those that say we should try Buium or Tuomisto at some point in that spot.

All this said, I think you can improve the bottom pair without acquiring a righty. If Aljo has taught us anything, it is better to have two good lefties on a pair than a bad righty. This theory of having a righty on each pair breaks down when that righty isn't actually good at hockey.

I’m not even worried about off-season buyouts or necessarily getting rid of Holl. If they want to park him in the press box or assign to GR…. Fine, it will play out in time.

My standpoint is we need to find a defenseman to insert in the lineup right now.
We don’t need a franchise altering trade.
Call the Griffins, trade a worthless pick for someone else’s AHL vet, Scour the daily waiver wires.
Holl is unplayable and if we are serious…. It should be addressed.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

Then I guess your calculator ain't working lol.

Husso, Petry, Kane, then 4th line fodder and griffins signings doesn’t equal 26 mill. And abdelkaders buy out is still affecting us until next year is over.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Husso, Petry, Kane, then 4th line fodder and griffins signings doesn’t equal 26 mill. And abdelkaders buy out is still affecting us until next year is over.

Husso + Petry + Kane + 4th line fodder + $7.5M cap increase definitely does. (Minus Kane's bonuses, which I admittedly forgot)

This was as easy as following this formula...

It's as simple as going to Cap Wages and adding up our NHL contracted players in 25-26, our Abdelkader buyout, and then subtracting it by $95.5M...

... And yet you still contested it. Literally all you had to do was exactly what I explained above, and it would've taken 30 seconds.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

Husso + Petry + Kane + 4th line fodder + $7.5M cap increase definitely does. (Minus Kane's bonuses, which I admittedly forgot)

This was as easy as following this formula...



And yet you still contested it...

Eh I still didn’t reach 26 million and even then it’s not a real 26 million as all of those AHL depth guys are going to be re-signed. It’s going to be under 20 we can actually play with for sure. And then on top of that I can see Lyon getting re-signed but with a pay increase and Kane coming back at like 3 million. Plus we have RFAs to pay. To me unless we trade some contracts out I foresee us as only having like 10 million we can spend.

 

[Ulysses31]

bring up a GR guy, keep holl as 7th for now or rotate games.

next year keep him as 7th or bury in AHL.

Edit: holl had a rough 1 last night but think me might be able to be a functional 7th d who plays 30ish games a year and who lightens the load of a rookie on back to back games, fills in for sick/injured etc or as emergency callup from ahl

Edit 2: some factors we dont know 1) how ownership feels about burying another big contract in the AHL (husso there)
2) intangibles: maybe he's an esp good teammate, well liked, provides vet leadership etc which might make him someone they dont want to play but dont especially want to send down either

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Eh I still didn’t reach 26 million and even then it’s not a real 26 million as all of those AHL depth guys are going to be re-signed. It’s going to be under 20 we can actually play with for sure. And then on top of that I can see Lyon getting re-signed but with a pay increase and Kane coming back at like 3 million. Plus we have RFAs to pay. To me unless we trade some contracts out I foresee us as only having like 10 million we can spend.

Signed 25-26 Forwards: Larkin/Raymond/Debrincat/Copp/Compher/Tank/Rasmussen/Veleno/Kasper. Nine players at $46.5M.

Signed 25-26 Defensemen: Seider/Chiarot/Holl/Gustafsson/Edvinsson. Five players at $19.6M.

Talbot in net at $2.5M Abdelkader's buyout at $1.055M.

All that combined is $69.65M. Subtract that from a $95.5M cap and it's $25.85M.

Now, I admittedly failed to add Kane's bonuses, which are currently sitting at $1.5M with the chance of hitting $2.5M, but that is nontheless an absurd, likely unspendable amount of cap with only 4 forwards, 2 defensemen, and a goalie needed.

Especially when you consider 4 of those seven spots are likely being filled by AlJo/Soderblom/Berggren/Cossa at no more than $6M - $7M, given the way they have all played. There's a chance we could sign a goalie and make Cossa force his way in, but that will likely be a minimal signing. I don't see us grabbing a $5M goalie for multiple years just to "Make Cossa earn it".

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

Signed 25-26 Forwards: Larkin/Raymond/Debrincat/Copp/Compher/Tank/Rasmussen/Veleno/Kasper. Nine players at $46.5M.

Signed 25-26 Defensemen: Seider/Chiarot/Holl/Gustafsson/Edvinsson. Five players at $19.6M.

Talbot in net at $2.5M Abdelkader's buyout at $1.055M.

All that combined is $69.65M. Subtract that from a $95.5M cap and it's $25.85M.

Now, I admittedly failed to add Kane's bonuses, which are currently sitting at $1.5M with the chance of hitting $2.5M, but that is nontheless an absurd, likely unspendable amount of cap with only 4 forwards, 2 defensemen, and a goalie needed.

Especially when you consider 4 of those seven spots are likely being filled by AlJo/Soderblom/Berggren/Cossa at no more than $6M - $7M, given the way they have all played.

I could see aljo getting like 3 x 4 or something like that as a decent gamble. Soderblom will get a bridge. Berggren will get probably a million dollar pay raise but I can’t see them wanting to give him a deal with lots of term. No idea about Cossa. Again I think it’s likely that Kane and Lyon both come back, Kane will take a decrease but Lyon is gonna get a big pay raise. I don’t seem them running just Talbot and Cossa given talbots age and cossas inexperience. Lyon has been really good for us too.

If we are being honest, I think they are going to take a run at rantanen. I can see Brock Nelson being a realistic target as well. I don’t see both copp and compher coming back so one of them is gonna get traded and tarasenko might get bought out.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I could see aljo getting like 3 x 4 or something like that as a decent gamble. Soderblom will get a bridge. Berggren will get probably a million dollar pay raise but I can’t see them wanting to give him a deal with lots of term. No idea about Cossa. Again I think it’s likely that Kane and Lyon both come back, Kane will take a decrease but Lyon is gonna get a big pay raise. I don’t seem them running just Talbot and Cossa given talbots age and cossas inexperience. Lyon has been really good for us too.

I don't think there's enough sample with AlJo to get a deal like that. I can see both sides opting for 1 year in the $1.5M - $2M range or a 2 year at a little more just as a "Show me more" type deal.

Which would be a hell of a move for AlJo if he continues to play the same way.

Realistically, if Soderblom/Berggren/Kane are all back on the team, I don't see any way that one of Tank/Compher/Copp isn't moved. That puts you at 12 forwards without even discussing the possibility of any UFA or Mazur/Danielson/MBN or even Buchelnikov, if they tried pulling him from his KHL contract.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Husso + Petry + Kane + 4th line fodder + $7.5M cap increase definitely does. (Minus Kane's bonuses, which I admittedly forgot)

This was as easy as following this formula...



... And yet you still contested it. Literally all you had to do was exactly what I explained above, and it would've taken 30 seconds.

I think it is roughly $22mm with Kane's bonus included therein.