We Have A Gm Problem

[CallMeShaft]

Once again, Baseball and Hockey are two totally different sports. You cannot say "this GM is doing blah, blah, blah, in the MLB so why isn't Davidson doing that in the NHL?!?". They are not comparable. Knock it off.

Having said that, I will actually compare the two sports. Hockey >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting hit in the balls >>>> Baseball.

 

[ClydeLee]

The prevailing sentiment of the defenders in this thread re: Davidson is give him more time so the team can continue to suck and hope we get more stars by picking #1.

I'm sorry. Do we need a GM for doing that?

Picking up Spencer Knight is the lone acquisition that MAY be classified as trying to build a winner.

Picks ain't players. Most of them fail and I worry most of you equate blind hope with an active strategy. Go back a decade and see folks rattle off a bunch of prospect names that never made the show.

I said it before and I'll repeat it for the folks in the back - where is this rebuild without luck and getting Bedard?

How many wasted seasons are you OK with? How many wasted seasons is Bedard OK with?

I want a GM that can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Given the pace of moves, we are still looking at the 2030s before this team isn't a doormat AND even then, if you put all your chips in on draft picks, there's zero guarantee of success.

Do people here still really have Bedard that higher than Michkov/Fantelli? If not for Bedard, then they still have one of them. So.. it looks still great? I've never been a fan of the focus all about Bedard.

If not for Bedard, it could still possibly even better with Michkov which i often said, would of fit the timeline of the rebuild better because he wasn't going to be on the NHL team that needed multiple tanking years to rebuild. Surprisingly joined this year yet Maybe they were the worst team the year before last and have Celebrini/Michkov. That was my ideal scenario but things don't always fall that way. But then the hope would of been finding the elite D, like Schaffer. Like I really think SanJose should for their future try to get him even if it means giving Islanders a lot.

To me, what some people want leads to not being good enoigh down the line. What people think Buffalo or Torontos issues were, to me it worked okay for Toronto, but both rushed to be good as soon as they got their top picks. They added UFAs/Trades when they didnt have a well rounded prospect pool. Oddly Buffalo zigged so hard they zagged going all Forwad to all D.

If this past season or next season are at what many seem to want. Many wanted them to go beyond mid 70s at pts. They could drafted 6-9ths got like idk Brady Martin. Likely complementary piece. Then some want a big add like a Marner/whoever, thats improving to no lower than 8th they'd want to draft. So... your core is Bedard-BigUFA who may push Bedard to earn, then some top 6 good but not elite sides like Nazar, 8th pick, etc. Lots of maybes, still 2-3 good D potential top pair guys, but far less long term set talents. Adding this year 3rd pick and hopefully a top 5 pick next year would have a lot stronger top line productive talent to build as a core. You can likely get a trade of someone with one of these higher picks than some lesser talent likely.

But do we need a GM to do it? Idk, the best thing Davidson has done is convince Danny to agree to the long term planning. If Davidson lost his job but build a great core, would that bother us, I don't think so. I'm glad hes doing what could be risky long term planning.

 

[PCAisBest]

Dach for Nazar was his Rizzo trade

If a guy who scored 12 goals= anthony rizzo I have a bridge to sell somebody...

 

[PCAisBest]

Do people here still really have Bedard that higher than Michkov/Fantelli? If not for Bedard, then they still have one of them. So.. it looks still great? I've never been a fan of the focus all about Bedard.

If not for Bedard, it could still possibly even better with Michkov which i often said, would of fit the timeline of the rebuild better because he wasn't going to be on the NHL team that needed multiple tanking years to rebuild. Surprisingly joined this year yet Maybe they were the worst team the year before last and have Celebrini/Michkov. That was my ideal scenario but things don't always fall that way. But then the hope would of been finding the elite D, like Schaffer. Like I really think SanJose should for their future try to get him even if it means giving Islanders a lot.

To me, what some people want leads to not being good enoigh down the line. What people think Buffalo or Torontos issues were, to me it worked okay for Toronto, but both rushed to be good as soon as they got their top picks. They added UFAs/Trades when they didnt have a well rounded prospect pool. Oddly Buffalo zigged so hard they zagged going all Forwad to all D.

If this past season or next season are at what many seem to want. Many wanted them to go beyond mid 70s at pts. They could drafted 6-9ths got like idk Brady Martin. Likely complementary piece. Then some want a big add like a Marner/whoever, thats improving to no lower than 8th they'd want to draft. So... your core is Bedard-BigUFA who may push Bedard to earn, then some top 6 good but not elite sides like Nazar, 8th pick, etc. Lots of maybes, still 2-3 good D potential top pair guys, but far less long term set talents. Adding this year 3rd pick and hopefully a top 5 pick next year would have a lot stronger top line productive talent to build as a core. You can likely get a trade of someone with one of these higher picks than some lesser talent likely.

But do we need a GM to do it? Idk, the best thing Davidson has done is convince Danny to agree to the long term planning. If Davidson lost his job but build a great core, would that bother us, I don't think so. I'm glad hes doing what could be risky long term planning.

I don't think Davidson wanted Bedard, like, at all.

There were too many media planted articles about Fantilli before the draft.

After they won the lottery he had no choice.

If you look at the way this slop is being built, I hate to say it but fantilli would have been the better choice with the whole "speed and compete, broo" dormant system that's being implemented.

Will this new coach implement a system that caters to Bedard? Probably not only because the gm cannot get players who can play with Bedard. The Nazars of the world ain't it.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

A Bedard/Celebrini combo with the rise of Rinzel would've been an interesting outcome, but if they land a real top 6 C this year and draft a top end forward next year then they're still in good shape, they need more up front for sure

 

[ploppsdman]

All I want is ...if we are gonna suck...that this is the LAST year we passively suck. We go all in for crapitude in 25-26 and then we flex our big market muscle.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

All I want is ...if we are gonna suck...that this is the LAST year we passively suck. We go all in for crapitude in 25-26 and then we flex our big market muscle.

in a hard cap league?

 

[Hawkaholic]

I want to make clear, I agree that you need top picks to have a better chance at building a top team, BUT I've seen no evidence of even trying to turn the page.

And by "flip the switch" I do NOT mean signing guys for $15 per year.

Is it one more year of concentrated suck? Two more? When do you flip the switch and go after the Peterka's of the world?

Getting Howard from Tampa would send a VERY positive signal that deliberately sucking is over. THERE is your potential Rizzo trade.

You realize the players your listing haven't become available until just recently, right?

There hasn't been a worthwhile player even traded that made sense for the Hawks. All we are preaching is patience with our picks, and not make drastic UFA signings for no reason. What's the hurry? It isn't about Bedard, it's about the Blackhawks.

I don't think anyone is arguing that we should be trading picks/prospects for young good players that fit the timeline, only a problem with signing almost 30year old UFAs.

 

[Hattrick Kane]

You realize the players your listing haven't become available until just recently, right?

There hasn't been a worthwhile player even traded that made sense for the Hawks. All we are preaching is patience with our picks, and not make drastic UFA signings for no reason. What's the hurry? It isn't about Bedard, it's about the Blackhawks.

I don't think anyone is arguing that we should be trading picks/prospects for young good players that fit the timeline, only a problem with signing almost 30year old UFAs.

To a large degree it is about Bedard. Because if the Hawks are going to succeed, then Bedard has to succeed. Which is why I’m all about putting some assets into a real winger for him. You can’t let your franchise flounder with garbage forever.

 

[Deputy McRizzy]

To a large degree it is about Bedard. Because if the Hawks are going to succeed, then Bedard has to succeed. Which is why I’m all about putting some assets into a real winger for him. You can’t let your franchise flounder with garbage forever.

They need at least another TT or Bertuzzi type signing, just with less term ideally.

Otherwise you’re going into next year with Mik, Bertuzzi, and Foligno all in your top 6. That’s just had for development of Bedard and Nazar.

I’d like to see them bring in Roslovic. Still in his late 20s, can play C, shouldn’t cost too much, good skater, and can be a Donato replacement of sorts.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

Old topic. Tons of suggestions were out there to make some functional lines. Are we really going back through all the mid 6 forwards floating around?

He played with Kurashev and Foligno ffs. They spent 20 million on garbage. Hall made sense but he was 3rd line by then. No franchise surrounded an elite prospect with less in the cap era, not even Washington or NJ.

Halpern and Zubrus were just as bad.

 

[deytookerjaabs]

Lest we forget.....

Last time the Hawks climbed out the dumpster to turn a shocking corner it was a blizzard of youth/talent. Kane and Toews at age 20 didn't crack the top 30 NHL'ers in points the season the Hawks made the conference finals. Lots of talk was about how they're good players but not anywhere near generational because of the stat sheet & other reasons.

Let Bedard focus on playing the game right, eff the stats. Same for the other young guns.

When the Hawks made that massive leap with Toews/Kane they had at age 23 or under these draft picks from home or from trade:

Versteeg (134)
Ladd (4)
Bolland (32)
Barker (3)
Byfuglien (245)
Brouwer (214)
Seabrook (14)
Hjalmarsson (108)

The main "vets" were Havlat, Cambpell, Sharp.

Effect of the injection of a ton of youth from the edges of the draft spectrum was cumulative, it wasn't Toews/Kane carrying turds. They had kids who were mostly just a hair better than their respective position compared to the league as a whole.

The Hawks have a massive cupboard right now with a few of them just having less than a season under their belt. And they're adding to the cupboard this year plus possibly next year. Wait until they hit the ice en masse and gel or not to make the final judgement.

 

[hockeydoug]

So when young guys play well it doesn't count because the league is taking it easy on the Hawks? Are we really supposed to believe that if the Hawks were 5 places higher in the standings everyone would bring their A game against them every night?

The Gm shouldn't acquire extra picks because he might miss on more prospects than if he didn't have extra picks. I guess we just ignore that he might hit on more prospects instead. Oh wait if he hits on the prospects it doesn't count because they don't get to play winning hockey right away.

All this bitching from you for years and your big plan with the benefit of hindsight is to acquire a couple Tuevo/Bert types a year earlier and to not stock up on prospects. What the f*** ever lol.

No, it may or may not count. We won't know...that's the problem when picking who to keep and who to dump. That's how the Hawks got Hagel...because Buffalo misread a bunch of wings who looked good on bad teams.

My theme has been to NOT go all in on picks because of all the pitfalls given the picks themselves and the unknowns of management with new decision makers and questionable histories. I'm all for tanking and making sure there are 3 in the top 50 each year and never said otherwise. 4-6 late firsts and 2nds are redundant and lead to stupid picks more often than not because staff can just fling stuff to the wall.

What benefit of hindsight? I've been calling it out since the rookie owner and wet-behind-the-ears gm came up with a video game rebuild as they "change the culture" You can still tank and have NHL lines use the rest of your tools to build a base to put good pieces on as you keep tanking instead of puking up prospects on quicksand.

FFS this franchise was like somebody quitting a job for new career, getting married and pregnant, moving a thousand miles a way and quitting smoking in the same year. A touch bat$$it to go nuts on draft picks.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

To a large degree it is about Bedard. Because if the Hawks are going to succeed, then Bedard has to succeed. Which is why I’m all about putting some assets into a real winger for him. You can’t let your franchise flounder with garbage forever.

we really don't know if this will end up the case when the teardown is finished

 

[MHO]

Rebuilding in hockey just takes a while whether you put better players surrounding your core or not. It won't be until your young core matures until the team is truly ready to contend. Look at the Hawks in 2003 when they still had legacy players and vets like Zhamnov, Sullivan, Daze, Housley, Nylander, Thibault, and Mironov with some kids like Calder, Bell, and Arnason. I don't think anybody thought that team would do anything and there has been a rumor that during the lockout, they were going to trade Duncan Keith (an unknown prospect at the time) for Jeremy Roenick and Tony Amonte. If they did that, I don't think the dynasty would have been quite the same. But that's the kind of thing some of you want KD to do - maybe with guys that are younger than Roenick or Amonte but still.

I'm thinking that the team right now is where the Hawks were going into the 2006-2007 season. That year, they had 3 guys who played the entire season that became part of the core like Keith, Seabrook, and Sharp. I equate that to Bedard, Nazar, and Vlasic with Kinght and Rinzel likely to join them and bunch of guys waiting in the wings like Levshunov, Korchinski, Moore, Del Mastro, and Kaiser. Now this and the next draft are the chance to add the Toews and Kane to that core like they did in 2006. Then if you guys remember, the 2007-2008 team was a ton of fun and competitive. They would have definitely made the playoffs if Toews didn't miss 16 games in the middle of the season.

So while Bedard got a bit of the shaft and joined a team at the beginning of the tank, the next 2 high picks they have will join a team ready to compete.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

Rebuilding in hockey just takes a while whether you put better players surrounding your core or not. It won't be until your young core matures until the team is truly ready to contend. Look at the Hawks in 2003 when they still had legacy players and vets like Zhamnov, Sullivan, Daze, Housley, Nylander, Thibault, and Mironov with some kids like Calder, Bell, and Arnason. I don't think anybody thought that team would do anything and there has been a rumor that during the lockout, they were going to trade Duncan Keith (an unknown prospect at the time) for Jeremy Roenick and Tony Amonte. If they did that, I don't think the dynasty would have been quite the same. But that's the kind of thing some of you want KD to do - maybe with guys that are younger than Roenick or Amonte but still.

I'm thinking that the team right now is where the Hawks were going into the 2006-2007 season. That year, they had 3 guys who played the entire season that became part of the core like Keith, Seabrook, and Sharp. I equate that to Bedard, Nazar, and Vlasic with Kinght and Rinzel likely to join them and bunch of guys waiting in the wings like Levshunov, Korchinski, Moore, Del Mastro, and Kaiser. Now this and the next draft are the chance to add the Toews and Kane to that core like they did in 2006. Then if you guys remember, the 2007-2008 team was a ton of fun and competitive. They would have definitely made the playoffs if Toews didn't miss 16 games in the middle of the season.

So while Bedard got a bit of the shaft and joined a team at the beginning of the tank, the next 2 high picks they have will join a team ready to compete.

so much this, add two blue chip forwards up front and its time to make a serious push up the standings

 

[Toews2Bickell]

maybe there should be a counter thread to this one "we have a fan problem"

 

[ploppsdman]

maybe there should be a counter thread to this one "we have a fan problem"

Maybe we should have a counter-counter thread entitled "people should respect others POV and I'm not always right."

The long standing theme to this thread is: I declare that the ONLY way to win is to devastatingly suck and this is a near guarantee of future success.

But I declare that being atrocious is NOT a plan.

It's a choice to deliberately lose, in part bc of a history of elite players generally being selected near the top of the draft, but IMO, it's also an admission from the organ-I-zation that they have zero confidence in drafting and developing stars WITHOUT being in the top 3 every damn year.

But fine, consciously putting a roster together to maximize losing is a "plan" in your perspective. I accept that and maybe we're getting lost in a distinction between "choice" and "plan".

It certainly appeared that last year they deviated from the plan and failed. The coach was fired due to underperformance, right?

So, can I comment on that? This team was clearly built last year to begin the first steps towards learning how to win and the moves failed.

Therefore, I evaluate the current plan, as revealed, as worrisome.

How do I know they failed last year?

Please don't tell me picking third overall can be considered a success. We all know that was NOT the expectation of Chicagos management.

Am I allowed to criticize that?

Essentially, what's an acceptable avenue of criticism that won't result in petty, snarky replies from members of this board?

 

[pvr]

No, getting 3 or 4 is the most important part. That's why I've always been okay with a tank.

Does former league MVP Hall have a better career if he wasn't in the EDM dumpster fire for so many years? I say yes. How about Reinhart? Nobody is convincing me Buffalo didn't slow him down. I don't like Strome that much but it was pretty obvious AZ was leaving him for dead after his recent article. Hirschier? Plenty of high picks got through it just fine. It's a mixed bag based on the franchise, and nobody left Bedard out there to waste time of a potential start like Chicago did, and that's a problem they still have to catch up with to get to that number of superstars needed to be a serious contender.

Time matters. Don't waste a potential superstar year for some arbitrary commitment to a plan that hasn't been proven reliable. It's easy to flip the tank switch on midway through a season, so easy teams do it by accident every year. (edited to split sent up)

It took the Bulls seven (7!) years to win a championship with Michael Jordan.

I think we’re ok right now with Connor Bedard waiting another season or two until the Hawks window opens. And Bedard isn’t even close to the equivalent player that MJ was early in MJ’s career.

 

[pvr]

Kaiser + a pick for Howard makes too much sense for both sides. Tampa’s defensive core kind of sucks at this point with how old Hedman is.

Kaiser for Howard straight up, or a second round pick for Howard. TBL is not dealing from a position of strength.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

It took the Bulls seven (7!) years to win a championship with Michael Jordan.

I think we’re ok right now with Connor Bedard waiting another season or two until the Hawks window opens. And Bedard isn’t even close to the equivalent player that MJ was early in MJ’s career.

McDavid and Draisaitl have been in Edmonton for almost ten years. Ironically, it's probably taken them longer to be competitive because of some of the stuff they did early on like sign Lucic to a huge deal

 

[Callidusblackhawk]

So, any comment on that? This team was clearly built last year to begin the first steps towards learning how to win and the moves failed.

Therefore, I evaluate the current plan, as revealed, as worrisome.

How do I know they failed last year?

Please don't tell me picking third overall can be considered a success.

Last year:

This year:

It was baby steps sure but the team objectively improved despite trading their number 1 dman at the deadline. Doesn't really look like a failure to me (and good luck convincing me that drafting in the top 3 is a bad thing considering where we're at in the rebuild).

Turbo and Bert being your big adds isn't exactly signaling the team is ready to take a serious run at the playoffs. Why is drafting 3rd overall a worse outcome than say, 8th overall when either way the team isn't really close? This team still needs to find good players and generally the higher you draft the more likely you are to do that. Why should a GM go out of his way to make that more difficult at this stage? The Hawks have 2 young players who have shown they can play at a high level in this league so far.

 

[PCAisBest]

Obviously you can't tell anybody what other teams did has no bearing on the slop the current GM has built here......

 

[PCAisBest]

It took the Bulls seven (7!) years to win a championship with Michael Jordan.

Irrelevant.

Jordan and the Bulls have no bearing what so ever on the slop and losing culture Davidson has built here.

Krause made the team better, Davidson has done nothing to make the Hawks better and the concensus here is that the Hawks are losing on purpose.

Krause had the best coach of his era under contract waiting in the wings while Davidson just signed a failed retread. If that isn't a red flag Davidson is throwing the proverbial darts hoping something lands....

And Bedard isn’t even close to the equivalent player that MJ was early in MJ’s career.

Got that much right.

Jordan did everything in his power to win. Bedard not so much.

 

[CallMeShaft]

"The Hawks and Bulls are not comparable!!!"

Also, "Imma compare the Hawks and the Cubs..."