We Have A Gm Problem

[hockeydoug]

Some people love to shit on KD because the team has sucked the past 3 years but haven't offered better alternatives other than hindsight ideas that would lead to more wins in the short term but no shot of a sustained cup contending core.

People mistook some asking for NHL talent to slot players into real NHL lines as a call to put more pts in the standings.

Who cares about drafting great players if you are continually paying them more than you have to because you let the FA clock slip by on their development. Top draft picks generally get money on the 2nd contract just for having been a high pick and the extra, sometimes unjustified TOI that comes with it.

Burning cap by not developing well. Bedard is going to get money as a player who still hasn't played a NHL shift that translates into winning anything.

 

[MHO]

People mistook some asking for NHL talent to slot players into real NHL lines as a call to put more pts in the standings.

Who cares about drafting great players if you are continually paying them more than you have to because you let the FA clock slip by on their development. Top draft picks generally get money on the 2nd contract just for having been a high pick and the extra, sometimes unjustified TOI that comes with it.

Burning cap by not developing well. Bedard is going to get money as a player who still hasn't played a NHL shift that translates into winning anything.

Well Bedard is going to get paid quite well no matter who he plays with and how important those minutes are. Keith and Seabrook turned out just fine playing their first 2 seasons on teams going absolutely nowhere.

As for your other point about players starting their ELC clocks earlier than what you would say is ideal, I believe that is short sighted. Yes, They will have 1 less year of Rinzel, Levshunov, Nazar, Moore on their ELC deals than they normally would but they have to sign their next contracts with less NHL time under their belts than they would if their ELCs started a year later. This means the player, while getting to RFA sooner, has less leverage at the negotiating table.

So let's say Nazar puts up 50 points next year and comes to the table with a season of 1 goal in 3 games, then 26 points in 53 games, and then 50 points in 80 games lets say. That's probably a 5 or 6M AAV contract on RFA. Now if he didn't burn that first year and then puts up 75 points in the season following next, you're looking at 8 or 9M AAV.

 

[hockeydoug]

So once the Hawks won the lottery to draft Bedard, what do you wish KD would have done that he didn't do to surround him with more talent?

Old topic. Tons of suggestions were out there to make some functional lines. Are we really going back through all the mid 6 forwards floating around?

He played with Kurashev and Foligno ffs. They spent 20 million on garbage. Hall made sense but he was 3rd line by then. No franchise surrounded an elite prospect with less in the cap era, not even Washington or NJ.

 

[WarriorofTime]

No, getting 3 or 4 is the most important part.

but nobody left Bedard out there to waste time of a potential start like Chicago did,

and that's a problem they still have to catch up with to get to that number of superstars needed to be a serious contender.

Time matters. Don't waste a potential superstar year for some arbitrary commitment to a plan that hasn't been proven reliable.

This is so wildly contradictory and back and forth. If they get, say, McKenna, next year. Now they have a guy coming in with other potential stars/superstars (i.e., very high draft picks where the stars/superstars tend to go). It sucks to be the guy at the beginning of it (Bedard) because those early years are not fun, but it has to happen so that someone can be the one at the end of it when the team rapidly shoots up. Duncan Keith didn't even see the postseason until he was a few months away from turning 26.

 

[hockeydoug]

Well Bedard is going to get paid quite well no matter who he plays with and how important those minutes are. Keith and Seabrook turned out just fine playing their first 2 seasons on teams going absolutely nowhere.

As for your other point about players starting their ELC clocks earlier than what you would say is ideal, I believe that is short sighted. Yes, They will have 1 less year of Rinzel, Levshunov, Nazar, Moore on their ELC deals than they normally would but they have to sign their next contracts with less NHL time under their belts than they would if their ELCs started a year later. This means the player, while getting to RFA sooner, has less leverage at the negotiating table.

So let's say Nazar puts up 50 points next year and comes to the table with a season of 1 goal in 3 games, then 26 points in 53 games, and then 50 points in 80 games lets say. That's probably a 5 or 6M AAV contract on RFA. Now if he didn't burn that first year and then puts up 75 points in the season following next, you're looking at 8 or 9M AAV.

The catch is Nazar is going to spend all of next year playing against teams that don't even do much video work preparing for Chicago because it's all new in red and generally bad. So there's alot of built in wasted time having gone this route.

Again, KD isn't trying to go that route, he's just stuck to it imo. He shifted gears already, the gears just missed.

 

[hockeydoug]

This is so wildly contradictory and back and forth. If they get, say, McKenna, next year. Now they have a guy coming in with other potential stars/superstars (i.e., very high draft picks where the stars/superstars tend to go). It sucks to be the guy at the beginning of it (Bedard) because those early years are not fun, but it has to happen so that someone can be the one at the end of it when the team rapidly shoots up. Duncan Keith didn't even see the postseason until he was a few months away from turning 26.

Focus on what you do well, don't put all your eggs in one philosophical basket, win shifts so to maximize value of NHL toi (especially for young players), and then tank hard when positive standing outcome doesn't fit long term goals.

You can put together 2 pairs and 2 lines and still suck at getting points.

 

[MHO]

Old topic. Tons of suggestions were out there to make some functional lines. Are we really going back through all the mid 6 forwards floating around?

He played with Kurashev and Foligno ffs. They spent 20 million on garbage. Hall made sense but he was 3rd line by then. No franchise surrounded an elite prospect with less in the cap era, not even Washington or NJ.

I don't remember very many other than not letting Strome go for nothing.

Playing with Kurashev and Foligno was not by design. None of us anticipated Hall missing virtually the entire season, Perry getting kicked off the team, or Reichel being garbage (Ok maybe Musto did on that). You don't always decide when a generational talent falls into your lap so comparing them to other teams isn't valid in saying KD should have done more.

 

[MHO]

The catch is Nazar is going to spend all of next year playing against teams that don't even do much video work preparing for Chicago because it's all new in red and generally bad. So there's alot of built in wasted time having gone this route.

Again, KD isn't trying to go that route, he's just stuck to it imo. He shifted gears already, the gears just missed.

WTF do you mean?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Old topic. Tons of suggestions were out there to make some functional lines. Are we really going back through all the mid 6 forwards floating around?

I recall your suggestion was to trade a 1st round pick for Vince Dunn (if he was even available)

 

[Toews2Bickell]

I recall your suggestion was to trade a 1st round pick for Vince Dunn (if he was even available)

yikes

 

[hockeydoug]

I don't remember very many other than not letting Strome go for nothing.

Playing with Kurashev and Foligno was not by design. None of us anticipated Hall missing virtually the entire season, Perry getting kicked off the team, or Reichel being garbage (Ok maybe Musto did on that). You don't always decide when a generational talent falls into your lap so comparing them to other teams isn't valid in saying KD should have done more.

Perry was really slow and very limited,
Hall was penciled in to miss 25 games at least (I liked the pickup)
If there was another middle 6 going into the year or even 2 gambles, it would have made sense.

Doesn't take much to be better and making 2 functional top 9 lines so Reichel, Bedard and any surprise could play actual NHL hockey most of the year, at least at home.

WTF do you mean?

Teams don't have video and won't be bothering to plan much for Chicago. You already saw it with the end of the year. Some outcomes skewed the perception of play. Good and bad, there will be incorrect takes how how they play and adjust.

Kids skating really hard are more interesting so getting 18 shots vs 30+ against was easily overlooked. Fortunately, Blashill has been here before and that should mitigate some of the challenges for KD.

I recall your suggestion was to trade a 1st round pick for Vince Dunn (if he was even available)

I know we adored Tinordi and Caleb Jones on the left side...or right sometimes, but how is an Allan or Beaudin type, typical of late firsts, a big downgrade? It's not like KD wasn't going to have 3 picks in the top 50 and there were alot of young D to work into the lineup or shift around both lineups to see what they had.

The general approach on roster construction was to spend alot of money buying garbage for 2 years and keeping spots open for kids to move up. Too lean on the depth and it was bad to bring anybody up into.
Last year KD shifted plans, he's just not able to execute that well because gm-ing is hard, especially when you dig a hole for yourself and why I comment on the thread. Lots of growing pains yet.

 

[ClydeLee]

No, getting 3 or 4 is the most important part. That's why I've always been okay with a tank.

Does former league MVP Hall have a better career if he wasn't in the EDM dumpster fire for so many years? I say yes. How about Reinhart? Nobody is convincing me Buffalo didn't slow him down. I don't like Strome that much but it was pretty obvious AZ was leaving him for dead after his recent article. Hirschier? Plenty of high picks got through it just fine. It's a mixed bag based on the franchise, and nobody left Bedard out there to waste time of a potential start like Chicago did, and that's a problem they still have to catch up with to get to that number of superstars needed to be a serious contender.

Time matters. Don't waste a potential superstar year for some arbitrary commitment to a plan that hasn't been proven reliable. It's easy to flip the tank switch on midway through a season, so easy teams do it by accident every year. (edited to split sent up)

How did Buffalo slow down Reinhart exactly? Their issue is they tried to be good immediately. If anything, they rushed.

My big prove of your supposed solution and counter to you complaints, it's all exactly what Buffalo did! Why I don't want any rushing.

Reinhart didnt play but 9 games as a rookie for valid reasons. Then joins with Eichel, but they immediately after getting those 2 tried to be good. Even in their tank, they traded for Evander Kane who was hurt but to be on the team. Adding O'Reilly and other pieces to immediately say, okay we got Eichel and Reinhart... also Ristolinen. Time to be better. Which was too soon adding guys. Then when that 1st year was bad, they still added in ufa with Okposso and others. They had experienced in title people around and Dan Byslma. This concern about rushing to be good and play meaningful games is a bigger concern to me than not.

You seem to want to do what Buffalo or Toronto did, go for improving too soon. When you don't have a 3-4 core ideal pieces figured out or at least valuable to be traded for someone of equal value. You don't have no fingers in the baskets, you look for pieces to add, but don't rush it or break the bank to do it. I don't think the lack of meaningful games is this nhl killer, these teams were absolute trying to avoid it and still created those problems.

 

[MHO]

Perry was really slow and very limited,
Hall was penciled in to miss 25 games at least (I liked the pickup)
If there was another middle 6 going into the year or even 2 gambles, it would have made sense.

Doesn't take much to be better and making 2 functional top 9 lines so Reichel, Bedard and any surprise could play actual NHL hockey most of the year, at least at home.

Teams don't have video and won't be bothering to plan much for Chicago. You already saw it with the end of the year. Some outcomes skewed the perception of play. Good and bad, there will be incorrect takes how how they play and adjust.

Kids skating really hard are more interesting so getting 18 shots vs 30+ against was easily overlooked. Fortunately, Blashill has been here before and that should mitigate some of the challenges for KD.


I know we adored Tinordi and Caleb Jones on the left side...or right sometimes, but how is an Allan or Beaudin type, typical of late firsts, a big downgrade? It's not like KD wasn't going to have 3 picks in the top 50 and there were alot of young D to work into the lineup or shift around both lineups to see what they had.

The general approach on roster construction was to spend alot of money buying garbage for 2 years and keeping spots open for kids to move up. Too lean on the depth and it was bad to bring anybody up into.
Last year KD shifted plans, he's just not able to execute that well because gm-ing is hard, especially when you dig a hole for yourself and why I comment on the thread. Lots of growing pains yet.

I'm not saying Hall and Perry were world beaters but the plan wasn't for Bedard to play with Kurashev and Foligno. So who else was even available that summer that they could have acquired?

And whether there's video or not, once a player enters the league, obviously there won't be video on them so I don't understand how that's relevant to development when considering when a player is brought up.

It's one thing to trade a player who was a first round pick that hasn't lived up to expectations for something. It's another to trade a future first who could turn into anything.

 

[hockeydoug]

How did Buffalo slow down Reinhart exactly? Their issue is they tried to be good immediately. If anything, they rushed.

My big prove of your supposed solution and counter to you complaints, it's all exactly what Buffalo did! Why I don't want any rushing.

Reinhart didnt play but 9 games as a rookie for valid reasons. Then joins with Eichel, but they immediately after getting those 2 tried to be good. Even in their tank, they traded for Evander Kane who was hurt but to be on the team. Adding O'Reilly and other pieces to immediately say, okay we got Eichel and Reinhart... also Ristolinen. Time to be better. Which was too soon adding guys. Then when that 1st year was bad, they still added in ufa with Okposso and others. They had experienced in title people around and Dan Byslma. This concern about rushing to be good and play meaningful games is a bigger concern to me than not.

You seem to want to do what Buffalo or Toronto did, go for improving too soon. When you don't have a 3-4 core ideal pieces figured out or at least valuable to be traded for someone of equal value. You don't have no fingers in the baskets, you look for pieces to add, but don't rush it or break the bank to do it. I don't think the lack of meaningful games is this nhl killer, these teams were absolute trying to avoid it and still created those problems.

KD locked himself into that Buf and Toronto path by racing so hard for a pile of picks and he has to fight like hell to get out of it. What will be 20+ largely unknown commodities in terms of winning, are coming up for contracts within 3 years. We watched Tallon screw that up twice until somebody took the keys away.

I think Pominville was the only top 9 who knew what a cf looked like with Reinhart, a decade and a half after the fact. Sam was in a dumpster of losing, that mess slowed him down.

The only thing KD is really doing differently is clogging up the system more with a volume and not spending as much AAV quite as quickly as Shanny...but it's still early.

KD didn't go after Guentzel and 2 OA because he's committed to some overripening nonsense. Those aren't patient moves.

I'm not saying Hall and Perry were world beaters but the plan wasn't for Bedard to play with Kurashev and Foligno. So who else was even available that summer that they could have acquired?

And whether there's video or not, once a player enters the league, obviously there won't be video on them so I don't understand how that's relevant to development when considering when a player is brought up.

It's one thing to trade a player who was a first round pick that hasn't lived up to expectations for something. It's another to trade a future first who could turn into anything.

I agree the plan was not to play with Kurashev. Foligno may have been there specifically to do what he broke his hand doing at x2 market value.

Zucker and Killorn made sense and so did depth centers since they were light in Chicago and Rockford. Ross Colton was available. Reilly Smith checked alot of boxes and was shopped for cap reasons. Definitely plenty of dmen. I have to go back and see who else moved but there were a few players moving for cap or contract slot reasons.

My point about the video is that these kids are going to do alot of things that league will easily adjust to, but the league is going to take it's time getting interested because of the schedule and the Hawks still being bad. The perception is going to be distorted.

I get it on futures, but how many "could be" picks, with the data available on draft slot, is just a compounding the likelihood of missing on the relatively high picks or mismanaging them?

 

[Callidusblackhawk]

KD locked himself into that Buf and Toronto path by racing so hard for a pile of picks and he has to fight like hell to get out of it. What will be 20+ largely unknown commodities in terms of winning, are coming up for contracts within 3 years. We watched Tallon screw that up twice until somebody took the keys away.

I think Pominville was the only top 9 who knew what a cf looked like with Reinhart, a decade and a half after the fact. Sam was in a dumpster of losing, that mess slowed him down.

The only thing KD is really doing differently is clogging up the system more with a volume and not spending as much AAV quite as quickly as Shanny...but it's still early.

KD didn't go after Guentzel and 2 OA because he's committed to some overripening nonsense. Those aren't patient moves.

I agree the plan was not to play with Kurashev. Foligno may have been there specifically to do what he broke his hand doing at x2 market value.

Zucker and Killorn made sense and so did depth centers since they were light in Chicago and Rockford. Ross Colton was available. Reilly Smith checked alot of boxes and was shopped for cap reasons. Definitely plenty of dmen. I have to go back and see who else moved but there were a few players moving for cap or contract slot reasons.

My point about the video is that these kids are going to do alot of things that league will easily adjust to, but the league is going to take it's time getting interested because of the schedule and the Hawks still being bad. The perception is going to be distorted.

I get it on futures, but how many "could be" picks, with the data available on draft slot, is just a compounding the likelihood of missing on the relatively high picks or mismanaging them?

So when young guys play well it doesn't count because the league is taking it easy on the Hawks? Are we really supposed to believe that if the Hawks were 5 places higher in the standings everyone would bring their A game against them every night?

The Gm shouldn't acquire extra picks because he might miss on more prospects than if he didn't have extra picks. I guess we just ignore that he might hit on more prospects instead. Oh wait if he hits on the prospects it doesn't count because they don't get to play winning hockey right away.

All this bitching from you for years and your big plan with the benefit of hindsight is to acquire a couple Tuevo/Bert types a year earlier and to not stock up on prospects. What the f*** ever lol.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

when your group can realistically contend with McDavid and Draisaitl in the west then your rebuild is over

 

[ploppsdman]

The prevailing sentiment of the defenders in this thread re: Davidson is give him more time so the team can continue to suck and hope we get more stars by picking #1.

I'm sorry. Do we need a GM for doing that?

Picking up Spencer Knight is the lone acquisition that MAY be classified as trying to build a winner.

Picks ain't players. Most of them fail and I worry most of you equate blind hope with an active strategy. Go back a decade and see folks rattle off a bunch of prospect names that never made the show.

I said it before and I'll repeat it for the folks in the back - where is this rebuild without luck and getting Bedard?

How many wasted seasons are you OK with? How many wasted seasons is Bedard OK with?

I want a GM that can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Given the pace of moves, we are still looking at the 2030s before this team isn't a doormat AND even then, if you put all your chips in on draft picks, there's zero guarantee of success.

 

[BHFAN92]

The prevailing sentiment of the defenders in this thread re: Davidson is give him more time so the team can continue to suck and hope we get more stars by picking #1.

I'm sorry. Do we need a GM for doing that?

Picking up Spencer Knight is the lone acquisition that MAY be classified as trying to build a winner.

Picks ain't players. Most of them fail and I worry most of you equate blind hope with an active strategy. Go back a decade and see folks rattle off a bunch of prospect names that never made the show.

I said it before and I'll repeat it for the folks in the back - where is this rebuild without luck and getting Bedard?

How many wasted seasons are you OK with? How many wasted seasons is Bedard OK with?

I want a GM that can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Given the pace of moves, we are still looking at the 2030s before this team isn't a doormat AND even then, if you put all your chips in on draft picks, there's zero guarantee of success.

I knew there was other people out there who think like me. Thank you for this post. People act like tanking is the only move. Yes its important but so is building around high picks. A good GM can both tank and make moves to pick up young players when they become available. So far KD hasnt proven he can do more than tank

 

[Toews2Bickell]

the Hawks are acquiring good young players, they're just not in the NHL right now, which is what makes this teardown strategy pretty good, your future is getting better without pushing your team too far up the standings to land the type of talent that you ultimately want to get by drafting really high

 

[PCAisBest]

So far KD hasnt proven he can do more than tank

This right here.

Any GM can build a slop roster, trade away young talent at pennies on the dollar, and continuously fill up the roster with washed up has beens.

I've been told countless times Theo did the same thing, yet when it's mentioned "where is Davidsons Rizzo trade" all you get is crickets.

Until a real GM gets in there this team will always be looking at "draft capital" then Cups.

 

[ploppsdman]

I want to make clear, I agree that you need top picks to have a better chance at building a top team, BUT I've seen no evidence of even trying to turn the page.

And by "flip the switch" I do NOT mean signing guys for $15 per year.

Is it one more year of concentrated suck? Two more? When do you flip the switch and go after the Peterka's of the world?

Getting Howard from Tampa would send a VERY positive signal that deliberately sucking is over. THERE is your potential Rizzo trade.

 

[Deputy McRizzy]

I want to make clear, I agree that you need top picks to have a better chance at building a top team, BUT I've seen no evidence of even trying to turn the page.

And by "flip the switch" I do NOT mean signing guys for $15 per year.

Is it one more year of concentrated suck? Two more? When do you flip the switch and go after the Peterka's of the world?

Getting Howard from Tampa would send a VERY positive signal that deliberately sucking is over. THERE is your potential Rizzo trade.

Kaiser + a pick for Howard makes too much sense for both sides. Tampa’s defensive core kind of sucks at this point with how old Hedman is.

 

[Mrfenn92]

Rizzo played baseball. This is hockey fyi fellas. But back to your delusions.

 

[PCAisBest]

Getting Howard from Tampa would send a VERY positive signal that deliberately sucking is over. THERE is your potential Rizzo trade

I agree.

Sharp was Tallons Rizzo trade. Davidson has done nothing similar and from the looks of it wont unless he's the one giving up the Rizzo which, quite honestly, he doesn't have any more.

Teams are more then willing to give up draft picks and the teams that aren't are in the same boat as the Hawks.

Davidson gave away a 90 pt first line player for scraps while the lightning GM laughed and im sure other GM's laughed along with him.

Davidsons on his second head coach. Now that they finally got a cable deal and this slop team will be more visible I think Davidsons tenure as a GM is on thinner ice then many wish to believe and that's a good thing.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

I agree.

Sharp was Tallons Rizzo trade. Davidson has done nothing similar and from the looks of it wont unless he's the one giving up the Rizzo which, quite honestly, he doesn't have any more.

Teams are more then willing to give up draft picks and the teams that aren't are in the same boat as the Hawks.

Davidson gave away a 90 pt first line player for scraps while the lightning GM laughed and im sure other GM's laughed along with him.

Davidsons on his second head coach. Now that they finally got a cable deal and this slop team will be more visible I think Davidsons tenure as a GM is on thinner ice then many wish to believe and that's a good thing.

Dach for Nazar was his Rizzo trade