We Have A Gm Problem

[ColbyChaos]

Toews and Kane suddenly wernt on the team, Fleury wasn't the goalie, etc, etc....

Toews missed an entire season and was a 3rd liner when he returned.

MAF was ass cheeks while he was here

This team wasn’t going to do shit besides finish 9th worst with no foreseeable future

 

[Crow]

Fluery wasn’t the problem to me, the team was really very terrible though. Kane and cat and nothing on offense or defense that was good at all.

 

[Hull2Roenick2Kane]

 

[hockeydoug]

The design is fine. Perfectly normal in fact. Stock up your assets with multiple years of high and excess draft picks. Then go from there. There is no other design that is as efficient or reasonably likely to result in a future period of contention than this.

The execution will remain to be determined. If you think the "design" is poor though, then I think you just don't pay attention to the NHL on a macro-scale. Look at PCA, a Red Wing fan that was bragging about how Yzerman got Seider when Bowman passed him up for Dach. Now he's out here worrying and acting like Bowman had the team on track for contention with a bunch of players that would all on UFA contracts in present day and weren't even close to competing when they were all here. You can tell he's getting nervous, his boy Yzerman who he was gushing about for drafting Seider looks like he may have flubbed it up by taking the Wings out of their tank too soon and putting a cap on their level of prospects when they still need multiple guys to come through and their 1C continues to Age. And then over here, if the Hawks go for the tank again and do actually get McKenna (unlike Bedard, he would get to come in at the end of the tank period when the Hawks have a stacked prospect/ELC player pool) then they are probably the team best situated to run the "next generation" of NHL when the teams like Florida/Edmonton/Vegas/Colorado/Tampa have all fully run their course back down the standings. And even if it's not McKenna specifically but someone else that is still very good, the Hawks will be in a very good spot.

Sure bad things can happen, the draft picks can bust, the one that don't bust may not peak as high as people would like, the Hawks can mismanage the D and end up sending the wrong ones out the door, they could sign the wrong UFA that messes up the cap. A lot can go wrong, and at the end of the day, there's 1 winner and 31 losers, but the Hawks are on a very shortlist to be a very strong contending team into the 2030s the way it's all shaping up.

The mechanics are anything but normal. Instead of landing the plane and putting it in the hanger to take it apart he crashed it on the runway and grabbed what he could to save time.

No team that other than Florida drafted that many picks in the first 2 drafts. No team surrounded a franchise type prospect with less in the cap era, and no team went 3 years without any veteran NHL coaches guiding a franchise trying to build up from the flaming PR and results dumpster. Danny/KD were doing this all while trying to overhaul the entire business structure and culture.

I think people are wrong about KD sticking to some slow "all in on developing prospects" plan. Guentzel signed 7 years an 9mil in TB, Chicago was pursuing him so they wouldn't have had a conversation without a serious offer in mind in my opinion. He was a top FA. He was going after a guy who would be getting 45-65 million on a variable term one way or another, on a blackhawks team that drafted 14 centers (11 top 100oa) since KD got the keys. It doesn't fit the narrative of a rebuild the KD plan supporters keep stating.

He started poorly because nobody tears down and rebuilds within a decade plus the way he started and he's been trying to fix it.

I completely support him going after actual talent as they tank. Teams figure out how make a couple lines/pairs or a system work while still tanking hard, every year. Prospects don't develop prospects without a lot of wasted years, KD knows this and his actions suggest he knows he should have started differently.

So it's a poor design, and if not, it's a design nobody else has run with and succeeded without a sale or a decade+ worth of years.

 

[hockeydoug]

How do you do a rebuild differently?

TB, Dallas, FLA, Detroit.

Successful ones are usually a series of accidents and almost always involved some major decisions by ownership.

Dallas never prioritized picks over other types of acquisitions since Nill got the job. I don't see how Boston changing owners and much of management wasn't a rebuild.

Hawks could have spent the extra year before lighting everything on fire, evaluate staff, fix the office culture, breath for a couple months after being under siege instead of racing a fire sale

Most rebuilds weren't neat and pretty plans as fans want to believe. For example Florida's tear down had nothing to do with tanking for a rebuild, owners didn't care, the value of the sale was tied to the lucrative arena management contract to which the Panthers were the least desirable part.

 

[ClydeLee]

TB, Dallas, FLA, Detroit.

Successful ones are usually a series of accidents and almost always involved some major decisions by ownership.

Dallas never prioritized picks over other types of acquisitions since Nill got the job. I don't see how Boston changing owners and much of management wasn't a rebuild.

Hawks could have spent the extra year before lighting everything on fire, evaluate staff, fix the office culture, breath for a couple months after being under siege instead of racing a fire sale

Most rebuilds weren't neat and pretty plans as fans want to believe. For example Florida's tear down had nothing to do with tanking for a rebuild, owners didn't care, the value of the sale was tied to the lucrative arena management contract to which the Panthers were the least desirable part.

Are you honestly praising Detroit's rebuild? You would rather Chicago wasted years like Detroit did, then not actually tank like Detroit? They're in a bad spot because both of those were terrible management choices.

Tampa and Florida is exactly the wheelhouse of Chicago's rebuild. There is no one to one they did things the same for anyone. But one thing I would of pushed is Keeping Kane, I think the still active lawsuit made them want to remove any 2010 elements from the actual team and media facing positions there. But you described how Florida was similar. Yes, Barkov and Ekblad, had no experience at HC, then they had turmoil at gm changing, back to Tallon, changing for the good after it.

No rebuild has really taken less than a decade to actual produce results since the Hawks 2010 win. I'd say the Hawks/Pens were unique for starting precap, and cheap ownership played a part of a slow build being behind the major rebuild. This rebuild is fine and should take long, almost all tank rebuilds see no playoff success, more than like 1 round win for 7 years. The 7-12 years seems to be the tight window of real success.

There's not a single plan. So idk why you think it's a negative that Davisaon has looked into multiple avenues. The nitpicking and strawmaning is too much for your valid points to stand. There is no perfect plan, but your solutions make no sense. If you have zero prospects worth evaluating? How does wasting a year evaluating if your staff can evaluate or develop well work? Based on what criteria? Thats a path to terrible waste like Detroit. This rebuild is on par with Flordia, Tampa, Edmonton, etc. There's no magic rebuild plans as you said, yet seem to think there were these strange details that would of been better. That'd set the team back even more

 

[hockeydoug]

Are you honestly praising Detroit's rebuild? You would rather Chicago wasted years like Detroit did, then not actually tank like Detroit? They're in a bad spot because both of those were terrible management choices.

Tampa and Florida is exactly the wheelhouse of Chicago's rebuild. There is no one to one they did things the same for anyone. But one thing I would of pushed is Keeping Kane, I think the still active lawsuit made them want to remove any 2010 elements from the actual team and media facing positions there. But you described how Florida was similar. Yes, Barkov and Ekblad, had no experience at HC, then they had turmoil at gm changing, back to Tallon, changing for the good after it.

No rebuild has really taken less than a decade to actual produce results since the Hawks 2010 win. I'd say the Hawks/Pens were unique for starting precap, and cheap ownership played a part of a slow build being behind the major rebuild. This rebuild is fine and should take long, almost all tank rebuilds see no playoff success, more than like 1 round win for 7 years. The 7-12 years seems to be the tight window of real success.

The question was "how do you do it differently?"

Detroit wound down slowly then screwed up. Chicago screwed up by skipping the winding down. Same thing just different. Both franchises will be good, just takes extra years for no good reason.

Yzerman has been the most overrated hockey executive since before Vinik annointed him. KD is the only GM who I've seen get close to the same pass on brain farts and hires, but I attribute that to Bowmanitis.

Any gm who doesn't say pretty things to the media at the right time or party with the media seem to get slammed even if they're decent or better.

 

[WarriorofTime]

OK you can't just say the best plan is to just nail every draft pick including superstars in the 2nd round.

 

[Callidusblackhawk]

Hawks could have spent the extra year before lighting everything on fire, evaluate staff, fix the office culture, breath for a couple months after being under siege instead of racing a fire sale

Most rebuilds weren't neat and pretty plans as fans want to believe. For example Florida's tear down had nothing to do with tanking for a rebuild, owners didn't care, the value of the sale was tied to the lucrative arena management contract to which the Panthers were the least desirable part.

Yeah that would have been great. Hang on to Dach and Debrincat an extra year and draft 10th or some nonsense instead of 1st. Get nothing for Dach when he inevitably tanks his trade value. Not sure why you think a GM should wait a year before tearing down a team that desperately needed to be torn down. Especially when by the time he actually started the tear down he had already been GM for essentially a whole season.

 

[ColbyChaos]

It’s a Doug post not even worth the effort lmao

 

[Toews2Bickell]

If you want to make an argument for a different way to build then pick Vegas, they've owned the pro scouting side since coming into the league, always looking to improve their roster and they get the most out of their cap dollars and have flipped prospects at peak value

 

[Hawkaholic]

TB, Dallas, FLA, Detroit.

Successful ones are usually a series of accidents and almost always involved some major decisions by ownership.

Dallas never prioritized picks over other types of acquisitions since Nill got the job. I don't see how Boston changing owners and much of management wasn't a rebuild.

Hawks could have spent the extra year before lighting everything on fire, evaluate staff, fix the office culture, breath for a couple months after being under siege instead of racing a fire sale

Most rebuilds weren't neat and pretty plans as fans want to believe. For example Florida's tear down had nothing to do with tanking for a rebuild, owners didn't care, the value of the sale was tied to the lucrative arena management contract to which the Panthers were the least desirable part.

Lol joke post. Detroit??? Lllooollll

Florida tanked for multiple years, how do you think they got Ekblad, Barkov and Huberdeau(Tkachuk)

How do you think TB got Stamkos, Hedman, and got Drouin (who sucked)?

Dallas is the only one that didn't openly tank, but what have they won?

 

[ColbyChaos]

Why doesn’t Chicago just draft a hall of famer with every pick? Are they stupid?

 

[hockeydoug]

Yeah that would have been great. Hang on to Dach and Debrincat an extra year and draft 10th or some nonsense instead of 1st. Get nothing for Dach when he inevitably tanks his trade value. Not sure why you think a GM should wait a year before tearing down a team that desperately needed to be torn down. Especially when by the time he actually started the tear down he had already been GM for essentially a whole season.

Nobody said hang onto all the things or not to tank. Who cares if they miss on a few if they get more right later instead of flinging 22 top 100 picks to the wall to see what sticks? They can't put together 5 shifts in a row of NHL hockey for years for the kids that matter to learn anything?

You can't just pick out the good ones either, especially since they'll be so much more expensive when it's time to start winning.

 

[deytookerjaabs]

Dallas is the only one that didn't openly tank, but what have they won?

The contest for worst goal song, they won that.

 

[hockeydoug]

Lol joke post. Detroit??? Lllooollll

Florida tanked for multiple years, how do you think they got Ekblad, Barkov and Huberdeau(Tkachuk)

How do you think TB got Stamkos, Hedman, and got Drouin (who sucked)?

Dallas is the only one that didn't openly tank, but what have they won?

You asked a question, I answered. I already explained Yzerman sucks.

Florida didn't try to tank for Barkov...what are you talking about? They tried winning by adding talent and failed and had to do a major reset leading to Barkov and Ekblad. Then Tallon fumbled with his giant pile of prospects for years.

TB didn't intentionally tank for Stamkos or Hedman, they were tanking to get out of payroll trying to sell the franchise. Owner had a lien on the franchise and had to get out of payroll to sell. New owners swung and whiffed, accidental tank. Huge difference so it's not a comp on how to build, Vinik walked in with a great plan, with all the resources a gm could wish for, at near perfect timing.

It’s a Doug post not even worth the effort lmao

Bring us those NBA comparisons...the good stuff.

 

[hockeydoug]

If you want to make an argument for a different way to build then pick Vegas, they've owned the pro scouting side since coming into the league, always looking to improve their roster and they get the most out of their cap dollars and have flipped prospects at peak value

Apparently there's only one type of rebuild, sell for picks. I don't think 3 gms would define a rebuild the same way but we're on a chat board.

I agree, Vegas is a great example of rebuilding time and time again but there seems to be hang ups with discussion about building/rebuilding/retooling/general managing and when each term applies.

 

[ColbyChaos]

Bring us those NBA comparisons...the good stuff.

You mean the OKC thunder rebuild model by prioritizing acquiring tons of picks through a multiple year span which lead to them being a contender? Different sport same concept junior and that style of a rebuild is what KD has done.

I still do think teams with money should go that route should they rebuild as it allows them to not only get a high influx of prospects but also spread out to where you aren’t stuck with trying to resign something like 4 first round picks in the same year and so on.

 

[Hawkaholic]

You asked a question, I answered. I already explained Yzerman sucks.

Florida didn't try to tank for Barkov...what are you talking about? They tried winning by adding talent and failed and had to do a major reset leading to Barkov and Ekblad. Then Tallon fumbled with his giant pile of prospects for years.

TB didn't intentionally tank for Stamkos or Hedman, they were tanking to get out of payroll trying to sell the franchise. Owner had a lien on the franchise and had to get out of payroll to sell. New owners swung and whiffed, accidental tank. Huge difference so it's not a comp on how to build, Vinik walked in with a great plan, with all the resources a gm could wish for, at near perfect timing.


Bring us those NBA comparisons...the good stuff.

A successful rebuild is the goal. Not what Detroit/is doing. So not sure why you would bring up a shitty rebuild as if it's a model to follow.

Florida didn't try to tank, but they sucked for a few years, revamped their team using the building blocks they got high in the draft, as a core to build around.

No one ever said these teams intentionally tanked, and it's pointless to mention it it because the point is you need top talent in the draft to build your team around, just like Tampa, Colorado, Florida, etc. How do you get it? By being a bad team for a few years and collecting loads of lotto tickets.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You asked a question, I answered. I already explained Yzerman sucks.

Florida didn't try to tank for Barkov...what are you talking about? They tried winning by adding talent and failed and had to do a major reset leading to Barkov and Ekblad. Then Tallon fumbled with his giant pile of prospects for years.

TB didn't intentionally tank for Stamkos or Hedman, they were tanking to get out of payroll trying to sell the franchise. Owner had a lien on the franchise and had to get out of payroll to sell. New owners swung and whiffed, accidental tank. Huge difference so it's not a comp on how to build, Vinik walked in with a great plan, with all the resources a gm could wish for, at near perfect timing.


Bring us those NBA comparisons...the good stuff.

The only thing I glean from your posts is you consider the acquisition of superstars to be the least important part of a rebuild. Not something that goes with conventional wisdom but you do you.

 

[Toews2Bickell]

Apparently there's only one type of rebuild, sell for picks. I don't think 3 gms would define a rebuild the same way but we're on a chat board.

I agree, Vegas is a great example of rebuilding time and time again but there seems to be hang ups with discussion about building/rebuilding/retooling/general managing and when each term applies.

I like the approach the Hawks are taking, I think its the easiest way to get blue chip players and reduce the likelihood of wasting a lot of time trying to compete when you just don't have the roster to win anything important, Vegas sort of lucked into their situation, they set out to do exactly what the Hawks did by taking a lot of expiring contracts etc but the team ended up very competitive and they decided not to sell and just added to it after the first run, but they've done extremely well in the trade/ufa market, there is no denying that