Post-Game Talk: WCSF GM7 | Canucks lose to Oilers | 2-3 (Garland & Hronek) | Season Over

[CanucksSayEh]

Im still upset about not pulling Silovs game 6 for the 6v3.

30 seconds they had to score twice, and press x for doubt on Skinner. Instead they never shot again until the 3rd period of the next game.

FFS even the banged up 2011 team, vs a much better goalie and D, put up a record number of shots for a finals series.

 

[bossram]

Why wouldn't they simply turn the power play over to the Sedin's to work with?

I couldn't know. Makes sense.

Tocchet has to make some changes.

 

[David71]

need to find a new pp coach to implement better strategies

 

[mathonwy]

You know going into the playoffs I think we all had big concerns about our top 6. We have a great top 3 with Pettersson/Miller/Boeser, but no real second line to speak of. We tried to make Pettersson play as a one-man second line and it just didn't work.

Looking back, I hated the Kuzmenko trade at the time (not the Lindholm acquisition, but the "cap dump" of Kuzmenko) and in retrospect I think it looks much worse now. I saw a lot of posts here after the trade about it being a clear cap dump and "addition by subtraction", but I just don't see it. I heard a lot about how Tocchet didn't "trust" him, but he sure trusted Mikheyev with no goals in like 50 games to be stapled to Pettersson's wing. Unless Mikheyev is the best defensive winger in the league, or Kuzmenko is literally the worst defensive winger in the league, I think it was unbelievably foolish to dump Kuzmenko. Straight up Pejorative Slured. It created a massive gap in our forward lineup that was never filled.

We'll see if Kuzmeko has a poor season next year, but in Calgary he scored at a 40 goal/70 point pace over his 30 games there. We really missed his scoring and the lack of 2nd line wingers on this team was exposed to the point that we could barely muster 20 shots against a team with Nurse/Ceci playing in front of Skinner. Yikes.

look at Lindholms ice time this post season and ask yourself if kuz would have the same.

 

[hookshott]

look at Lindholms ice time this post season and ask yourself if kuz would have the same.

The funny thing is, Kuzmenko scored all those goals the season before.....and Toccchet was the coach for most of the season. They then signed him to a new contract...so they obviously had some belief in him.....then Tocchet could not accept the defensive deficiencies, even though it its much harder to score goals then it is to play defence, so they shipped him off, along with 4 other players and we will soon also be without Lindholm. A highly questionable trade.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

You know going into the playoffs I think we all had big concerns about our top 6. We have a great top 3 with Pettersson/Miller/Boeser, but no real second line to speak of. We tried to make Pettersson play as a one-man second line and it just didn't work.

Looking back, I hated the Kuzmenko trade at the time (not the Lindholm acquisition, but the "cap dump" of Kuzmenko) and in retrospect I think it looks much worse now. I saw a lot of posts here after the trade about it being a clear cap dump and "addition by subtraction", but I just don't see it. I heard a lot about how Tocchet didn't "trust" him, but he sure trusted Mikheyev with no goals in like 50 games to be stapled to Pettersson's wing. Unless Mikheyev is the best defensive winger in the league, or Kuzmenko is literally the worst defensive winger in the league, I think it was unbelievably foolish to dump Kuzmenko. Straight up Pejorative Slured. It created a massive gap in our forward lineup that was never filled.

We'll see if Kuzmeko has a poor season next year, but in Calgary he scored at a 40 goal/70 point pace over his 30 games there. We really missed his scoring and the lack of 2nd line wingers on this team was exposed to the point that we could barely muster 20 shots against a team with Nurse/Ceci playing in front of Skinner. Yikes.

As soon as the trade went down, I immediately thought it would result in Cody Hodgson 2.0, the shaky but still winning team performance down the stretch, the lack of options incase of an injury, the underperformance of the teams 2C, a powerplay that while statistically was decent, failed when most needed.

and it did.. The only difference is drawing Nashville vs the eventual champs.

Most here don't seperate team results from players, or directly compare players regardless of position/impact to judge a trade. You have many here trying to make it a Lindholm vs Kuz debate, but that's clearly apples n oranges.

It was just a huge misjudgment of where this teams offence came from, and how fragile it could be. Just heaps of evidence going into this years deadline, as there was from the 2011 finals. We traded away goals that could not be spared, knowing there were no 'next men up'.

I remember the Coho threads well, they were WORD FOR WORD what you read in the Kuz threads now. All it took was a few vague interviews from Tocch/AV/Gillis, and the fanbase made up the excuses for them.

I don't think Ill ever not believe, that the loss of Kuz and CoHo cost the team 2 conference finals appearances. They just needed 1 damn goal, and they never got it.

 

[mathonwy]

As soon as the trade went down, I immediately thought it would result in Cody Hodgson 2.0, the shaky but still winning team performance down the stretch, the lack of options incase of an injury, the underperformance of the teams 2C, a powerplay that while statistically was decent, failed when most needed.

and it did.. The only difference is drawing Nashville vs the eventual champs.

Most here don't seperate team results from players, or directly compare players regardless of position/impact to judge a trade. You have many here trying to make it a Lindholm vs Kuz debate, but that's clearly apples n oranges.

It was just a huge misjudgment of where this teams offence came from, and how fragile it could be. Just heaps of evidence going into this years deadline, as there was from the 2011 finals. We traded away goals that could not be spared, knowing there were no 'next men up'.

I remember the Coho threads well, they were WORD FOR WORD what you read in the Kuz threads now. All it took was a few vague interviews from Tocch/AV/Gillis, and the fanbase made up the excuses for them.

I don't think Ill ever not believe, that the loss of Kuz and CoHo cost the team 2 conference finals appearances. They just needed 1 damn goal, and they never got it.

Defense and depth down the middle wins championships.

if you didn’t notice, Petey was doing jack shit in the playoffs. Constantly getting pushed off the ice and not making anything happen.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Defense and depth down the middle wins championships.

if you didn’t notice, Petey was doing jack shit in the playoffs. Constantly getting pushed off the ice and not making anything happen.

Petey has often done jack shit these last 4 years.

 

[mathonwy]

Petey has often done jack shit these last 4 years.

This team has been a bit of a joke dontcha know. Have you heard of the tales of Jim Benning and Travis Green?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Petey has often done jack shit these last 4 years.

Twice to be exact.

Or for roughly 10% of his career here.

 

[kanucks25]

VAN ran out of gas because they turtled. Any team, even DAL, would look gassed if the opposition was allowed to continually reload and attack from a dump in. EDM was not required to work on the defensive end.

The objective take here is one that incorporates the reality of the situation, which was: VAN was 7-3 against the Oilers prior to Game 7 while the Oilers had an edge at the very top of the roster (on paper). The impact of that edge resulted in 29 shots for EDM to 17 for VAN, but VAN bested EDM in HDCFs/HDCAs (11-6). Of the main forwards, Draisaitl and Lindholm each finished with an assist. McDavid and Miller, goose eggs. The margins were close even if the run of play made it seem otherwise.

I get it though, the stark difference from Game 5 to Game 6 has people thinking the teams were worlds apart, when the overall play was relatively even to that point. Knoblauch made an adjustment and Tocchet accepted his team retreating further and further back. The rest is history.

The real objective take is that you have zero evidence that the coach told his players to turtle and in no media availability has Tocchet ever mentioned that he wants to play that style.

It's clear that we didn't run and gun, but it's also clear that a team bereft of overall offensive talent and ability should not be playing such a style as it does not play to their strengths. We have decades of evidence that suggests teams that lack talent must outplay their opponents in terms of structure and work-ethic to make up for the skill gap. We saw what it looked like in spurts both vs Nashville and Edmonton when the game opened up and the play went back and forth, it does not look pretty for us when that happens.

I'm not saying Tocchet is infallible and he did make several poor lineup decisions throughout the playoffs (if we're keying in on game 7, Hronek as the guy replacing Boeser over Garland on the PP was puzzling to say the least). And perhaps with better coaching we do make it past the Oilers because in the end, it was a 1-goal loss in game 7.

But I have a tough time blaming him overall considering there probably aren't many coaches that could have got this roster as far as it went. Not many had the Canucks making the playoffs let alone a couple goals away from the conference finals. I put this more on the players who are actually on the ice, especially our top guys who were thoroughly outplayed by their top guys. It also stings a little less knowing we realistically had little chance against the Stars.

 

[Intangibos]

look at Lindholms ice time this post season and ask yourself if kuz would have the same.

Funny how at the time of the trade everyone said Kuzmenko was a cap dump with negative value and the price for Lindholm was pick+prospect, and now when the trade is criticized suddenly Kuzmenko was the big piece in the deal.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

When you force every player to prioritize D over scoring, then when the fight or flight kicks in, that is what you will get, a team that only defends, aka, turtles. At that point, no amount of goaltending will save you from a 23 shot per period onslaught.

Dump and change hockey.

 

[archangel2]

worse part was watching the Oilers win in double over time

Funny how at the time of the trade everyone said Kuzmenko was a cap dump with negative value and the price for Lindholm was pick+prospect, and now when the trade is criticized suddenly Kuzmenko was the big piece in the deal.

Kuz was not working here anymore--he was a cap dump. Canucks needs his cap space for player who could work in our system. There was NO pressure in Calgary. There was here. Some players do better with less pressure and it looks like Kuz is one of those players

 

[Intangibos]

worse part was watching the Oilers win in double over time



Kuz was not working here anymore--he was a cap dump. Canucks needs his cap space for player who could work in our system. There was NO pressure in Calgary. There was here. Some players do better with less pressure and it looks like Kuz is one of those players

So "coaching issue"?

 

[HairyKneel]

Im still upset about not pulling Silovs game 6 for the 6v3.

30 seconds they had to score twice, and press x for doubt on Skinner. Instead they never shot again until the 3rd period of the next game.

FFS even the banged up 2011 team, vs a much better goalie and D, put up a record number of shots for a finals series.

Thanks for the laugh.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The real objective take is that you have zero evidence that the coach told his players to turtle and in no media availability has Tocchet ever mentioned that he wants to play that style.

It's clear that we didn't run and gun, but it's also clear that a team bereft of overall offensive talent and ability should not be playing such a style as it does not play to their strengths. We have decades of evidence that suggests teams that lack talent must outplay their opponents in terms of structure and work-ethic to make up for the skill gap. We saw what it looked like in spurts both vs Nashville and Edmonton when the game opened up and the play went back and forth, it does not look pretty for us when that happens.

I'm not saying Tocchet is infallible and he did make several poor lineup decisions throughout the playoffs (if we're keying in on game 7, Hronek as the guy replacing Boeser over Garland on the PP was puzzling to say the least). And perhaps with better coaching we do make it past the Oilers because in the end, it was a 1-goal loss in game 7.

But I have a tough time blaming him overall considering there probably aren't many coaches that could have got this roster as far as it went. Not many had the Canucks making the playoffs let alone a couple goals away from the conference finals. I put this more on the players who are actually on the ice, especially our top guys who were thoroughly outplayed by their top guys. It also stings a little less knowing we realistically had little chance against the Stars.

We don't need evidence of a coaching directive to turtle, we just need the evidence of their on ice play and the consequences of said same. When this team turtled repeatedly, Tocchet accepted it. Even going so far as citing high danger chances as a way to evaluate the game. When the team or players do something he finds unacceptable, there are benchings, callouts, trades, forced practices etc... When this team does something he doesn't accept, we know about it.

What was then the consequence for turtling? Nothing really.

Next, this team being 'bereft of talent' ranked 6th in GF/GP on the year... 6th. Talent shy vs EDM maybe, but not overall. The funny thing is that VAN executed Tocchet's plan in Game 6 and Game 7. They leveled or won the HDCFs/HDCAs battle and were better for xGF/xGA in both games. This team that was so far out of EDM's league... Yet the lack of shot volume and being gassed due to turtling ultimately sunk them.

Tocchet doesn't get all the blame though. He failed to adjust early in Game 6 and in Game 7, but his top players didn't get it done either. I'm just not averse to including him into the criticism. He was a factor in their losing and there wasn't this talent chasm between the two teams as you're implying.

 

[HairyKneel]

We don't need evidence of a coaching directive to turtle, we just need the evidence of their on ice play and the consequences of said same. When this team turtled repeatedly, Tocchet accepted it. Even going so far as citing high danger chances as a way to evaluate the game. When the team or players do something he finds unacceptable, there are benchings, callouts, trades, forced practices etc... When this team does something he doesn't accept, we know about it.

What was then the consequence for turtling? Nothing really.

Next, this team being 'bereft of talent' ranked 6th in GF/GP on the year... 6th. Talent shy vs EDM maybe, but not overall. The funny thing is that VAN executed Tocchet's plan in Game 6 and Game 7. They leveled or won the HDCFs/HDCAs battle and were better for xGF/xGA in both games. This team that was so far out of EDM's league... Yet the lack of shot volume and being gassed due to turtling ultimately sunk them.

Tocchet doesn't get all the blame though. He failed to adjust early in Game 6 and in Game 7, but his top players didn't get it done either. I'm just not averse to including him into the criticism. He was a factor in their losing and there wasn't this talent chasm between the two teams as you're implying.

What a creepy post. He didn’t command that the players play in a turtle shell. They tightened things up a fair bit and maybe a bit too much. Is any of this on the player? Do the coaches dictate everything? I think not. Maybe they had no legs, no jump, were in their own heads. You have way too much time on your hands.

 

[archangel2]

So "coaching issue"?

Pressure to win. There is zero pressure to win in Calgary

 

[Intangibos]

Pressure to win. There is zero pressure to win in Calgary

What a lazy explanation. This is the type of thinking dinosaur GMs have like Benning when they ship Seguin off to Dallas.

 

[Bleach Clean]

What a creepy post. He didn’t command that the players play in a turtle shell. They tightened things up a fair bit and maybe a bit too much. Is any of this on the player? Do the coaches dictate everything? I think not. Maybe they had no legs, no jump, were in their own heads. You have way too much time on your hands.

What part of "but the players didn't get it done either" don't you understand?

Read better.

 

[archangel2]

What a lazy explanation. This is the type of thinking dinosaur GMs have like Benning when they ship Seguin off to Dallas.

Seguin was Neely choice, also it was Peter C who made the trade and how long have the Bruins been cup contenders? Until this playoffs they were always dangerous. Please be more thorough in you opinions and do not be so lazy in having basic information that you should not even have to google.

It is not hard.

Nucks went into win now mode and Kuz was a drag. A decision needed to be made and the fact Vancouver went wire to wire? Tells that dumping Kuz caused no problems

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

What part of "but the players didn't get it done either" don't you understand?

Read better.

 

[Intangibos]

Seguin was Neely choice, also it was Peter C who made the trade and how long have the Bruins been cup contenders? Until this playoffs they were always dangerous. Please be more thorough in you opinions and do not be so lazy in having basic information that you should not even have to google.

It is not hard.

Nucks went into win now mode and Kuz was a drag. A decision needed to be made and the fact Vancouver went wire to wire? Tells that dumping Kuz caused no problems

No you're right Seguin for Eriksson was an A+ trade, I'm just imagining the behind the scenes footage with Benning talking about the trade at the time.

Be condescending all you want, it doesn't make you sound intelligent. Based on how you write your little response though, I'm not surprised you're the type to think you can't criticize an otherwise good coach/management group for an obvious mistake. It's related to arrogance.

"A decision needed to be made", and they traded a 30-40 goal scorer as a "cap dump" because he didn't mesh well with the current coach. That's a coaching issue. This isn't some fringe NHLer that didn't fit into the coach's system. It's Tocchet's job to get the most out of the team, and the most out of the players. Our void of a second line led to a very clear lack of scoring in the playoffs, the answer to that criticism isn't "lol he didn't work well with Tocchet's system", that's Tocchet's problem to resolve up until a point, and that point isn't ~40 games IMO. If it were, we would be moving on from Pettersson right about now because it doesn't look like he's thriving in Tocchet's system either. Time to move Pettersson as a cap dump?

Even if a point came to move Kuzmenko, Tocchet absolutely tanked the value of a player who had just inked a new contract and went on scoring elsewhere immediately after leaving. It's absolutely fair to put blame on management/coaching for the Kuzmenko situation, stop simping for your bald daddies and assess the situation.

Would you like to continue the little back and forth quips so we can jerk ourselves off with how intelligent and enlightened we are, or would you like to talk about hockey instead?

 

[archangel2]

No you're right Seguin for Eriksson was an A+ trade, I'm just imagining the behind the scenes footage with Benning talking about the trade at the time.

Be condescending all you want, it doesn't make you sound intelligent. Based on how you write your little response though, I'm not surprised you're the type to think you can't criticize an otherwise good coach/management group for an obvious mistake. It's related to arrogance.

"A decision needed to be made", and they traded a 30-40 goal scorer as a "cap dump" because he didn't mesh well with the current coach. That's a coaching issue. This isn't some fringe NHLer that didn't fit into the coach's system. It's Tocchet's job to get the most out of the team, and the most out of the players. Our void of a second line led to a very clear lack of scoring in the playoffs, the answer to that criticism isn't "lol he didn't work well with Tocchet's system", that's Tocchet's problem to resolve up until a point, and that point isn't ~40 games IMO. If it were, we would be moving on from Pettersson right about now because it doesn't look like he's thriving in Tocchet's system either. Time to move Pettersson as a cap dump?

Even if a point came to move Kuzmenko, Tocchet absolutely tanked the value of a player who had just inked a new contract and went on scoring elsewhere immediately after leaving. It's absolutely fair to put blame on management/coaching for the Kuzmenko situation, stop simping for your bald daddies and assess the situation.

Would you like to continue the little back and forth quips so we can jerk ourselves off with how intelligent and enlightened we are, or would you like to talk about hockey instead?

you are imaging things

General manager Peter Chiarelli spoke in a press conference on July 4 to assert that, although the trade was "not a strict on-ice decision", but that concerns of Seguin's behavior were more related to "focus, just about little things, about preparing to play, it was nothing about extracurricular activities".

Boston Bruins: Revisiting the Tyler Seguin trade

What was the front office's reasoning for trading the future all-star and what do the Boston Bruins have to show for it anymore?

causewaycrowd.com

This joints hatred of Benning has blinded you to the truth