Wayne Gretzky use in penalty kill situations

PROGFAN66

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Feb 10, 2019
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The one stat on Wayne Gretzky that surprised me the most is that he is the all-time leader in shorthanded goals in NHL history. I didn’t see Gretzky play in his prime, but it doesn’t seem that common today to use your best offensive player on the penalty kill?
 
The one stat on Wayne Gretzky that surprised me the most is that he is the all-time leader in shorthanded goals in NHL history. I didn’t see Gretzky play in his prime, but it doesn’t seem that common today to use your best offensive player on the penalty kill?

Doesn't Draisaitl play on the PK ? :sarcasm:
 
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The one stat on Wayne Gretzky that surprised me the most is that he is the all-time leader in shorthanded goals in NHL history. I didn’t see Gretzky play in his prime, but it doesn’t seem that common today to use your best offensive player on the penalty kill?
The extra space made him more dangerous and Gretzky was actually underrated defensively.
 
I guess the question is, would there be an elite forward in the NHL today other than the times Draisaitl does it, that regularly kills penalties? Marchand is the next one I can think of. I think Bergeron is that sort of role anyway to begin with. When Toews was elite it would be him, but even at his best he wasn't the Hawks' best offensive guy. Kane was and is. And Kane has been nowhere near the penalty kill in his career.

There have been, from what it looks like based on PP goals against while you are on the ice's stats, that there were some experiments with certain players. It seems MacKinnon got a lot of penalty killing time in 2017 but barely any other time. Point in 2018 but never again. I am surprised Kane never has been used that way. Stamkos, Kucherov, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin and co. weren't penalty killers either. Getzlaf has been a regular penalty killer for what it is worth. Matthews has never been on the ice for a PPG against. Marner does kill penalties regularly though.

Yeah, I don't know why coaches don't use their elite forwards for this anymore. I would. Gretzky and Kurri used to be on the penalty kill and even then it was dangerous against the Oilers offensively. I understand they don't want their big forward taking a shot from the point off the ankle or blocking a shot and such, but Steve Yzerman from the get go was killing penalties. Messier as well. How many people know Phil Esposito killed penalties regularly, and obviously got some short handed points? I would use my elite forwards on the penalty kill if I could, why not? I think coaches should do it more these days.
 
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2018-2019 to today, highest shorthanded time on ice among players with at least 150 points and at least 200 minutes of PK played, excluding defenseman

Ranked by pk minutes:
NameGame playedPointsSH pointsSH minutes
Elias Lindholm2272016513
Mika Zibanejad21321412476
Sean Couturier2111891452
Ryan OReilly2232016450
Anze Kopitar2251893428
Ryan Nugent-Hopkins2171844387
Mitchell Marner2162457387
Logan Couture2031547349
Aleksander Barkov2132333348
Brad Marchand21727617341
Sebastian Aho22322413341
Patrice Bergeron19519612333
Tomas Hertl1931655305
Ryan Strome2031523274
Evander Kane1951528257
Claude Giroux2221973253
Brock Nelson2211511240
Teuvo Teravainen1881679240
Leon Draisaitl2273355204
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

A top pair forward during that time was around 340 minutes (i.e. Marchand-Aho), that put you in the top 60 in the league during that time frame.

1998-1999 to 2000-2001
NameGame playedPointsSH pointsSH minutes
Greg Johnson3141707975
Rod BrindAmour2751997885
Mike Modano31332317859
Tony Amonte32828912858
Michael Peca23515714824
Mike Ricci32418012800
Brian Rolston25718619791
Alexei Zhamnov2872379778
Owen Nolan28824416767
Igor Korolev3011517765
Niklas Sundstrom3151689754
Miroslav Satan32626817717
Steve Yzerman26425310698
Curtis Brown3041676689
Sergei Fedorov30126212681
Mark Messier24819215665
Darcy Tucker2681568651
Andrew Cassels2682057647
Jere Lehtinen2381546628
Joe Sakic29737414609
Martin Straka2462469604
Adam Oates2362175603
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

590 minutes for a forward was top pair PK minutes during that time frame (that was Kris Draper minutes).

Striking reminder that the deadpuck ear did not lack power plays at all
 
I guess the question is, would there be an elite forward in the NHL today other than the times Draisaitl does it, that regularly kills penalties? Marchand is the next one I can think of. I think Bergeron is that sort of role anyway to begin with. When Toews was elite it would be him, but even at his best he wasn't the Hawks' best offensive guy. Kane was and is. And Kane has been nowhere near the penalty kill in his career.

There have been, from what it looks like based on PP goals against while you are on the ice's stats, that there were some experiments with certain players. It seems MacKinnon got a lot of penalty killing time in 2017 but barely any other time. Point in 2018 but never again. I am surprised Kane never has been used that way. Stamkos, Kucherov, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin and co. weren't penalty killers either. Getzlaf has been a regular penalty killer for what it is worth. Matthews has never been on the ice for a PPG against. Marner does kill penalties regularly though.

Yeah, I don't know why coaches don't use their elite forwards for this anymore. I would. Gretzky and Kurri used to be on the penalty kill and even then it was dangerous against the Oilers offensively. I understand they don't want their big forward taking a shot from the point off the ankle or blocking a shot and such, but Steve Yzerman from the get go was killing penalties. Messier as well. How many people know Phil Esposito killed penalties regularly, and obviously got some short handed points? I would use my elite forwards on the penalty kill if I could, why not? I think coaches should do it more these days.

NHL.com has TOI stats, which is nice as it means we don't have to infer usage from on-ice goal figures.

Leon Draisaitl does not regularly kill penalties. He's only averaging 40 seconds per game on the PK over his last 74 games (last year and this year combined). That's good for 164th place in PK TOI among forwards with at least 50 GP over that stretch.

There aren't many stars that PK today, but it should be noted that over last season and this season so far combined, Mitch Marner (1:59), Anze Kopitar (1:58), Sebastian Aho (1:46), and Alexander Barkov (1:46) all averaged more PK TOI than Brad Marchand (1:38). Despite that deployment, though, those 4 guys have a combined total of 7 shorthanded points in their last 287 GP. In other words, they are actually there for their defensive skills, not their offensive ones.

I honestly doubt that Gretzky would regularly kill penalties if he played today. It seems that the period of time from the early 1980s to the early 2000s was fairly unique relative to the rest of NHL history both for how much star offensive players played on the PK and for how much shorthanded offence they produced. In contrast, in pretty much every other era in NHL history the shorthanded points and shorthanded on-ice goals leaders are mainly full of checking forwards.

One of the reasons I personally think McDavid is closer to Gretzky and Lemieux than the adjusted stats suggest is because I don't give those latter two guys full credit for their shorthanded scoring. I just don't think it happens in other eras.
 
A couple of points to consider...

When Gretzky entered the league (much less his youth development), you dressed one less skater. The rule we have now (18+2) came about in 82-83 I believe.

If you've ever played at a reasonably high level, you know that there can be a divide between the hockey players and the players that play hockey. Gretzky entered into a league that was pretty horrible shape. Sometimes, as a coach, you'll just take a hockey player being out there instead of someone whose ceiling is trying to kill this penalty...
 
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The extra space made him more dangerous and Gretzky was actually underrated defensively.
I agree the extra space made more dangerous, hence the rules being amended to prevent 4 on 4 play.

However, how was he underrated defensively?
 
When Gretzky entered the league (much less his youth development), you dressed one less skater. The rule we have now (18+2) came about in 82-83 I believe.

Did they also had 1-2 enforcer taking often a spot on the lower line ? If so that 3 less 4th liner pk typical role filler missing on that team, in a era with 33 to 80% more penalty time to kill than recent year. That a lot of time to keep Gretzky on the bench, with not that many good role player.

Now I imagine the bottom 6 is filled with PK able players.
 
Yes, in the 1980s there generally wasn't much defense being played...especially in the earlier parts of the decade. The average player had less defensive acumen than the average player now (or in the '90s, or '60s, etc.)
Add to that, the guys playing the PP were often the worst defensive players on the team....guys Gretzky would be less likely to face at ES...(so, for example, SH might be the only time he could avoid Langway, etc.).

So, you've got this incredibly talented offensive player....along with Coffey, Kurri, etc.....out there against some of the weakest defensive players you could imagine...

It's no wonder they scored some goals.
 
I don't think Gretzky was on the PK very much in the early years (c.1979 to 1982 or 1983), but he was after that, quite often. In 1981-82 and 1982-83, Gretzky picked up 8 and 10 SH points (respectively) each season.

However, it seems to be in 1983-84 that Sather started using him a lot and giving him more free reign. That season is the craziest SH-scoring one by any team in history. Gretzky himself scored 23 (!) SH points that season. Then, "down" to 18 in 1984-85 and in 1985-86, and then down to 13 in 1987.

I was recently watching some of the 1986 Calgary-Edmonton playoff series (a classic, btw), and I was surprised how much Sather was using Gretzky on the PK in those situations. I mean, in game six, with Edmonton facing elimination, and Calgary with that deadly PP, Gretzky was often out on the first-unit PK. He did quite well, too, very cool under pressure and skilled at clearing pucks out of the zone.

Of course, Gretzky was useless in terms of physical play, so if you were depending on him to take bodies out in front of the net, it wasn't going to work. But I guess they had other guys to do that.

Another factor about that era is that there were just way more penalties called back then, in general. Some nights, 40% of the game was special teams. In that situation, you've got to let your best players play, even at PK.

There was also the "fear" factor when peak-Gretzky was on, because teams knew if they stumbled at the blue line, and if there was a Gretzky-led odd man rush down the ice, there's about a 75% chance of the puck going in.
 
I think this was coach dependant. Some coaches loved using their most dangerous guys on the PK while others refused to do so under any circumstance.

Even in the 90s, I think pat Quinn at one time used to throw out bure and Russ courtnall together on the PK for example. That would be considered controversial back then among the coaching community for sure... Even today.
 
I think this was coach dependant. Some coaches loved using their most dangerous guys on the PK while others refused to do so under any circumstance.

Even in the 90s, I think pat Quinn at one time used to throw out bure and Russ courtnall together on the PK for example. That would be considered controversial back then among the coaching community for sure... Even today.

I strongly strongly agree.

Take a peak Gretzky and give him 5 different coaches and you'll get 5 different ways of utilizing him on the PK.

I played for coaches that refused to play offensive players on the PK, even if they were also our best defensive player.
 
Counter attacking was clearly working, as the Oilers had the best net PK% in the NHL during the 1980s.
NHL Stats

They continued to play an aggressive, counterattacking PK after Gretzky left too. Counting 88-89, the Oilers had 4 of the best 7 PK units of the 1980s, peaking at an 89.2% net PK in 1984, when Gretzky scored 23 SH points against 31 PPGA, and the Oilers scored 36 SH goals as a team.
NHL Stats
 
Gretzky was dangerous even in the PK due to his skill. Throw in a defensive forward and two d-men and he would challenge when he got the puck.
 
I don't think Gretzky was on the PK very much in the early years (c.1979 to 1982 or 1983), but he was after that, quite often. In 1981-82 and 1982-83, Gretzky picked up 8 and 10 SH points (respectively) each season.

However, it seems to be in 1983-84 that Sather started using him a lot and giving him more free reign. That season is the craziest SH-scoring one by any team in history. Gretzky himself scored 23 (!) SH points that season. Then, "down" to 18 in 1984-85 and in 1985-86, and then down to 13 in 1987.

I was recently watching some of the 1986 Calgary-Edmonton playoff series (a classic, btw), and I was surprised how much Sather was using Gretzky on the PK in those situations. I mean, in game six, with Edmonton facing elimination, and Calgary with that deadly PP, Gretzky was often out on the first-unit PK. He did quite well, too, very cool under pressure and skilled at clearing pucks out of the zone.

Of course, Gretzky was useless in terms of physical play, so if you were depending on him to take bodies out in front of the net, it wasn't going to work. But I guess they had other guys to do that.

Another factor about that era is that there were just way more penalties called back then, in general. Some nights, 40% of the game was special teams. In that situation, you've got to let your best players play, even at PK.

There was also the "fear" factor when peak-Gretzky was on, because teams knew if they stumbled at the blue line, and if there was a Gretzky-led odd man rush down the ice, there's about a 75% chance of the puck going in.

Gretzky had fantastic anticipation and great eye hand coordination that allowed him to turn over pucks and deflect passes. But as you say he also played havoc with the guys on the point. As soon as he felt that the Oilers had possession he would break and typically both guys on the point went with him. If they didn't they were in trouble. That made for rather easy outs.
 
NHL.com has TOI stats, which is nice as it means we don't have to infer usage from on-ice goal figures.

Leon Draisaitl does not regularly kill penalties. He's only averaging 40 seconds per game on the PK over his last 74 games (last year and this year combined). That's good for 164th place in PK TOI among forwards with at least 50 GP over that stretch.

There aren't many stars that PK today, but it should be noted that over last season and this season so far combined, Mitch Marner (1:59), Anze Kopitar (1:58), Sebastian Aho (1:46), and Alexander Barkov (1:46) all averaged more PK TOI than Brad Marchand (1:38). Despite that deployment, though, those 4 guys have a combined total of 7 shorthanded points in their last 287 GP. In other words, they are actually there for their defensive skills, not their offensive ones.

I honestly doubt that Gretzky would regularly kill penalties if he played today. It seems that the period of time from the early 1980s to the early 2000s was fairly unique relative to the rest of NHL history both for how much star offensive players played on the PK and for how much shorthanded offence they produced. In contrast, in pretty much every other era in NHL history the shorthanded points and shorthanded on-ice goals leaders are mainly full of checking forwards.

One of the reasons I personally think McDavid is closer to Gretzky and Lemieux than the adjusted stats suggest is because I don't give those latter two guys full credit for their shorthanded scoring. I just don't think it happens in other eras.

I don't think the "stars killing penalties" thing was unique just to Gretzky's era. I think our modern times it is unique to NOT have them being used. Just judging by the PPG against stats, which go back to 1960 on hockey-reference.com, you can see a lot of stars did it.

Howe killed penalties. Hull did it. Mikita too. In some cases it is based on team circumstances. Frank Mahovlich didn't do it as a Leaf, but he did as a Red Wing and very much so as a Hab. My guess is the Leafs already had plenty of forwards that were doing it and didn't need Mahovlich to do it. Keon was doing it, Pulford, Armstrong, etc. Ditto with Lafleur, the Habs already had guys who did this, he wasn't needed. It is hard to imagine, but Jean Beliveau was never on the ice in his entire career for a power play goal against. I would have assumed he did it. Same with Henri Richard, for whatever reason he barely did it. Claude Provost looked to be one of the forwards on those teams that did it.

As was already mentioned, Phil Esposito did it starting as a Bruins regularly. Bryan Trottier, Rick Middleton, Bobby Clarke, Marcel Dionne did it at different times of his career regularly and never had a Selke vote in his life. Perreault not so much, although it seems as if Bowman used him on the penalty kill once he was coach of the Sabres.

Bill Barber did it all of the time, Darryl Sittler as well. Looks like depending on the coach Lanny McDonald did it regularly too.

I don't know, maybe it is just me, but if I were a modern coach I'd use my star on the PK. That is, if he fits in there. It may not be a bad thing to have him there if anything as a decoy so the other team squeezes their sticks a little more, because if they screw up they know a skilled guy is rushing for a loose puck. I don't know the stats, but how often does a team score a shorthanded goal and win? I would say 80% of the time if I were to guess.

I don't think Gretzky was on the PK very much in the early years (c.1979 to 1982 or 1983), but he was after that, quite often. In 1981-82 and 1982-83, Gretzky picked up 8 and 10 SH points (respectively) each season.

It looks like he still killed penalties regularly in those early years. The best we can judge is from hockey-reference.com and looking at their PPG against numbers. Gretzky really only tailed off being used on the PK in his Ranger years. Even then, he still did, but not as much. As a King he regularly killed penalties too.
 
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I looked up the box scores for Gretzky's SH scoring in his first 3 seasons. This is before his peak SH scoring, but he was still one of the top SH scorers in the league in this time. There are some very clear trends, most of which point to Gretzky as a frontrunner who scored his SH points in the easiest situations.
  • For some reason he didn't score any SH points before December 23 in these 3 seasons, and then scored 11 SHG and 6 SHA from Dec 23 forward in these 3 seasons. I'm not sure what to make of that, maybe he didn't usually kill penalties to start the season.
  • 16 of his 17 SH points were against opponents who finished under 0.500. He was picking on the weaker teams.
  • 16 of his 17 SH points came in the second half of the penalty, and 8 of 17 were in the last 30 seconds of the penalty. So he wasn't scoring against fresh first units, he was taking advantage of second units or tired players.
  • 14 of his 17 SH points were scored while his team was leading. So he was either turning over an opponent who is pressing to tie the game, or he was running up the score in a game that's already won.
  • 10 of his 17 SH points were scored when his team already had scored more goals than the opponent would finish the game with, meaning his team already had enough goals to win. Obviously that wasn't always clear at the time, it just highlights the trends of Gretzky scoring later in the game and when his team was already leading.
  • Only 1 of his 17 SH points was scored in the first 15 minutes of the game. This is Gretzky being better conditioned than his opponents later in the game, or taking advantage of the game situation later in the game.

SeasonDateHome/RoadOpponentOpp W%PeriodTimePP startSeconds elapsedPoint typeScoreFinal Score
1979-8028-Dec-79RoadVancouver0.438217:3916:0792G4-15-3
1979-801-Feb-80HomeWinnipeg0.319116:4514:54111A14-09-2
1980-817-Jan-81HomeWashington0.438117:3516:0194A23-16-3
1980-817-Jan-81HomeWashington0.438219:3517:42113G5-16-3
1980-8111-Jan-81RoadQuebec0.48824:442:53111G3-16-3
1980-8114-Jan-81RoadToronto0.444314:1312:3499A15-47-4
1980-8118-Feb-81HomeSt. Louis0.66938:076:4384G8-29-2
1980-814-Mar-81RoadRangers0.463216:2216:148G2-15-5
1980-814-Apr-81HomeWinnipeg0.200318:2117:1764A17-27-2
1981-8223-Dec-81HomeVancouver0.48136:174:5582A14-16-1
1981-8227-Dec-81HomeLos Angeles0.394215:1113:5279G4-210-3
1981-8227-Dec-81HomeLos Angeles0.39437:265:5888G8-210-3
1981-829-Jan-82HomeCalgary0.46917:386:3068G2-07-2
1981-8228-Feb-82RoadWashington0.40639:478:2582A13-14-1
1981-8215-Mar-82HomeLos Angeles0.394217:5416:2094G2-23-3
1981-8225-Mar-82RoadCalgary0.46928:106:5773G3-17-2
1981-8225-Mar-82RoadCalgary0.46928:376:57100G4-17-2
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
If someone wants to continue into his peak SH scoring years, feel free, or I'll get to it myself later.
 
I don't know the stats, but how often does a team score a shorthanded goal and win? I would say 80% of the time if I were to guess.

It is now "easy" to check, since 2005, 2553 regular season games involved someone scoring at least a shorthanded goals.

1803W to 750L, 227 games when into OT , so 70.6% wins not too far.

It is a pure free goal that was created for sure, which reinforce that not all goals are equals thought I have.

But to make some bemol, when someone score a pp goals is team goes on to be:

8,273W-4,358L, 66% hockey is a low scoring game any type of goals will have giant W-L effect (thus the strange talk from time to time about the first goal or team record when X players score or has x points), so if this make your PK worst in any way it is not obviously a good thing.

If someone score an EV goals is team goes to win 58% of the games.

According to my stats isolation, overtime goals are the best one to win games.
 
  • For some reason he didn't score any SH points before December 23 in these 3 seasons, and then scored 11 SHG and 6 SHA from Dec 23 forward in these 3 seasons. I'm not sure what to make of that, maybe he didn't usually kill penalties to start the season.
That is odd.
  • 16 of his 17 SH points were against opponents who finished under 0.500. He was picking on the weaker teams.
Er... that's one way to put it. It kind of stands to reason that weaker teams would be more prone to short-handed goals, as they have weaker PP's and team defence.
  • 16 of his 17 SH points came in the second half of the penalty, and 8 of 17 were in the last 30 seconds of the penalty. So he wasn't scoring against fresh first units, he was taking advantage of second units or tired players.
That's definitely a thing. I think Gretzky, in general, would be on the 2nd PK unit most of the time anyway, so there's that. But that was probably strategic as well, because of course nobody was better than Gretzky at taking advantage of tired defenders.
  • 14 of his 17 SH points were scored while his team was leading. So he was either turning over an opponent who is pressing to tie the game, or he was running up the score in a game that's already won.
It's not that extreme, is it? If the Oilers were up 2-1 and Gretzky gets a point to make it 3-1, it's hardly "running up the score".
  • 10 of his 17 SH points were scored when his team already had scored more goals than the opponent would finish the game with, meaning his team already had enough goals to win. Obviously that wasn't always clear at the time, it just highlights the trends of Gretzky scoring later in the game and when his team was already leading.
That makes sense as well, because of course if one club is ahead in score, the other (on a PP) is going to have to gamble all-in to get one quickly.


The most interesting season to parse like this would be 1983-84, since the Oilers scored the (absurdly high) record number of SH goals that season.
 
For some reason he didn't score any SH points before December 23 in these 3 seasons, and then scored 11 SHG and 6 SHA from Dec 23 forward in these 3 seasons. I'm not sure what to make of that, maybe he didn't usually kill penalties to start the season

For folks questioning this. As a coach, I often will spare my best players from PK duty early in games to preserve them for later in games. I wonder if there isn't something similar going on here...energy conservation and the "rookie wall"...
 
I don't think the "stars killing penalties" thing was unique just to Gretzky's era. I think our modern times it is unique to NOT have them being used. Just judging by the PPG against stats, which go back to 1960 on hockey-reference.com, you can see a lot of stars did it.

I'm not saying it's completely unique, I agree that stars have routinely been used for second-unit and other spot duties on the PK throughout history, and in some cases even more than that. My point, though, is that shorthanded offence mostly didn't really have a significant impact on the overall scoring stats.

Here are the shorthanded points leaders during various portions of NHL history:

Original Six (1943-1967): Jerry Toppazzini
Post-expansion (1968-79): Ed Westfall
Dead Puck Era (1997-2004): Michael Peca
"New NHL" (2006-2022): Patrice Bergeron

Compare that to the top 10 in shorthanded scoring from 1980-1996:

1. Wayne Gretzky, 148
2. Mark Messier, 110
3. Jari Kurri, 80
4. Dave Poulin, 72
5. Steve Yzerman, 67
6. Mario Lemieux, 64
7. Steve Larmer, 55
8. Mark Howe, 51
9. Paul Coffey, 50
9. Brian Propp, 50

Dave Poulin is the only one there that would fit in the Toppazzini/Westfall/Peca/Bergeron group, as the other 9 are all high-end offensive players. I'd argue that's a fundamentally different group of players than you'll find on the shorthanded scoring leaders from any other era in NHL history, which will typically be a mix of checking forwards and elite two-way guys, with the odd great offensive player mixed in.

It just seems like if you had speed and skill and got a regular shift on the PK on a good team in the 1980s then you were very likely to score a bunch of points, and I don't think that's necessarily true for other eras. That makes SH scoring from that era seem like much more of a random lottery based on whether coaches decided to give their stars the chance to pad their stats or not.

That said, you are right that today's game is probably just as much of an outlier in the other direction, at least when it comes to shorthanded scoring. For example, I checked how many of the top 20 players in points per game (min. 200 GP) were also in the top 50 in shorthanded points for each of the eras listed above:

1943-67: 5 of top 20
1968-79: 8 of top 20
1980-96: 8 of top 20
1997-04: 8 of top 20
2006-22: 1 of top 20
 
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