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In the meantime, feel free to join our Discord ServerAs a hobby I like to track icetimes from old games (do I have an exciting life?), and for the last couple of years I've been trying to track every game I can find on YT from the 83-84 season. I've done about 20 or so games so far from that season. (I'm up to mid-Jan). Now these are only regular season games, so I would expect playoff games to have higher numbers for top-line players, but here's what I have for the two of them in admittedly small samples:
Bossy:
Oct 06 vs Mtl: 18:08 (PP- 0:00)
Nov 26 vs Chi: 15:22 (PP- 1:03)
Dec 04 vs Edm: 18:25 (PP- 2:40)
Dec 13 vs Edm: 19:13 (PP- 1:05)
Dec 15 vs Edm: 15:47 (PP- 2:17)
Gretzky:
Oct 13 vs Clg: 26:42 (PP- 4:07)
Nov 13 vs Chi: 32:33 (PP- 4:22)
Nov 19 vs Njd: 26:07 (PP- 3:51)
Dec 04 vs NYI: 26:25 (PP- 6:50)
Dec 13 vs NYI: 27:22 (PP- 5:21)
Jan 04 vs Min: 26:27 (PP- 6:49)
Bossy's numbers are startlingly low, but it could be explained by two factors: it was mentioned by announcers in a couple of games that Bossy was not 100%, so Arbour likely didn't want him aggravating any nagging injuries. I suspect his TOI was higher in his earlier healthier seasons. As well, in most of those games the Islanders had it clinched by the end of the second period, so there was no need to overplay their stars.
The Oilers were a three-line team for most of those games: Gretzky and Kurri with either Pouzar or Lindstrom on the first line, Mess-Linseman-Anderson on the second line, then a checking line with Hunter, Hughes and either Conacher or McClelland. They would always have a fourth line cobbled together from whoever else was available ( Semenko, Lumley, Habscheid, Roulston), but their time would be in the single digits.
The last point I want to make is that I don't think the higher TOI should be held against Gretzky. Most players can't handle that heavy a workload without becoming a liability late in games. But Gretzky never looks tired, even at the end of a two minute shift. Not many players can do that, and I consider the high TOI as a positive for Gretzky.
To me, I think the concept of opportunity cost is the best way to look at Gretzky's high minutes played. Those "extra" minutes that Gretzky played, and used to score goals and points, are minutes that another player could be playing and using to score goals and points. Not as efficiently as Gretzky, no, but if you're just looking at total points, you have to consider that opportunity cost where Gretzky is taking opportunity from other players.
Trottier talks about this in his book.My read on the Islanders is that Arbour really committed to spreading out the ice time starting in the 79-80 season, after the playoff upsets of 78 and 79. I think Bossy's ice time was relatively low through the dynasty years. It may have risen somewhat late in his career when the Islanders' forward depth was no longer as effective. And he may have played more in his top goal scoring season of 78-79 than in the dynasty years.
Said another way, if you're gonna succumb to stat usage instead of proper talent evaluation, then we're gonna do this the hard way and give you more stats haha
Trottier talks about this in his book.
In 1978-79 he wins the Art Ross and Hart. Islanders lead the league in points. Potvin wins the Norris. Bossy scored 69. Resch has a strong season. Gillies sets a career high in points. The Islanders (and Trottier) felt it was their year and that they would be the ones to knock off the Canadiens en route to a Cup.
And then they didn't.
In 1979-80 Arbour began his rolling four-lines approach. Trottier feels it is what enabled them to not only win the Cup, but to win Cups 2,3,4 and almost 5.
Trottier talks a lot about the physical and mental toll 5 Cup runs (and two Canada Cups) has on the team. They needed to rely to everyone since they just didn't have enough gas.
I do find it impressive though that Gretzky just goes at it though. 5 Cup runs in 6 years. 3 Canada Cups. Record after record. And he's still out there playing 25 minutes and dominating.
Unfortunately the game is no longer on YT, but Chicago had Troy Murray playing against Gretzky on all his ES shifts and he did a pretty good job shadowing him.32 minutes and a half, for a forward with no overtime played, regular November game when the Oilers started that season 11-2-1....
Oilers were behind 3-2 since the end of the 2nd period, so they needed a goal.... wonder if the single shot registered for Gretzky is accurate here.
See this post. I used two different (but similar) approaches, both of which concluded that Lemieux was playing 29-30 minutes per game that year. Would be interested in seeing how that compares to TOI from anyone who watches a few games from that season.How did prime 88/89 Mario Lemieux do?
What about Bobby Orr in comparison to other defensemen?See this post. I used two different (but similar) approaches, both of which concluded that Lemieux was playing 29-30 minutes per game that year. Would be interested in seeing how that compares to TOI from anyone who watches a few games from that season.
Great research @overpass - will try to add some comments after I've had time to digest.
Unfortunately the game is no longer on YT, but Chicago had Troy Murray playing against Gretzky on all his ES shifts and he did a pretty good job shadowing him.
@reckoning made a few posts on that topic. In this post, he argues (persuasively in my opinion) that Orr couldn't have possibly been averaging 40 minutes per game.What about Bobby Orr in comparison to other defensemen?
@reckoning made a few posts on that topic. In this post, he argues (persuasively in my opinion) that Orr couldn't have possibly been averaging 40 minutes per game.
@seventieslord does a similar analysis here and reaches the same conclusion.
@Michael Farkas spot checks a few of Orr's games here. In all three games Orr is between 32 and 35 minutes. recking also spot checked a game and got 34 minutes.
overpass, Not only the attempted data is interesting but the method, detail and presentation is perfect.
You have a question in your mind, yeah but maybe the islanders trailed more and so on, it is all there, one thought was Messier-Anderson line being so good at scoring goals in the playoff that they would have tie and get leads, but that would not explain the per team minutes numbers necessarily (maybe it does, as it is not player minutes but teams minutes)
If this is a script-code doing it using digitalized gamelog ?
There is something nice to see reputation (say Fuhr stopping pucks when it matters, Messier playoff heroes/good Smythe winner even if strange when you look at the whole playoff numbers) showing up like that.
Trottier talks about this in his book.
In 1978-79 he wins the Art Ross and Hart. Islanders lead the league in points. Potvin wins the Norris. Bossy scored 69. Resch has a strong season. Gillies sets a career high in points. The Islanders (and Trottier) felt it was their year and that they would be the ones to knock off the Canadiens en route to a Cup.
And then they didn't.
In 1979-80 Arbour began his rolling four-lines approach. Trottier feels it is what enabled them to not only win the Cup, but to win Cups 2,3,4 and almost 5.
Trottier talks a lot about the physical and mental toll 5 Cup runs (and two Canada Cups) has on the team. They needed to rely to everyone since they just didn't have enough gas.
I do find it impressive though that Gretzky just goes at it though. 5 Cup runs in 6 years. 3 Canada Cups. Record after record. And he's still out there playing 25 minutes and dominating.
Wait, hold the phone here. Your stats actually show that Gretzky scored more points than Bossy when each team was trailing. We should probably keep that clear. The "edging out in point production" is your guess based on ice-time estimates that aren't going to be very accurate.Trailing
Wayne Gretzky - 7 G, 25 A, 32 P
Mike Bossy - 13 G, 16 A, 29 P
When his team was trailing, Bossy scored more than twice as many goals as Gretzky and edged him out in point production as well. And oddly enough, Mark Messier led both of them.
I don't think there's any doubt about that. When up by a few goals, Al Arbour's 1960s' style coaching was to protect the lead. Glen Sather's style was to play his best players and run up the score if possible. This kind of makes sense, though, as Edmonton wasn't as good a defensive team as the Islanders. They depended more on getting big leads. (For example, they blew a 5-0 lead in the third period of playoff game.)I'll add one more thing. The Islanders scored 62 goals to give their team a 4 goal lead or more, and Bossy had a point on only 12 of them. The Oilers scored 60 such goals, and Gretzky had a point on 29 of them. So Gretzky pretty clearly had a longer leash to play and to score in blowouts.
Sure. I will also add that, most likely, when other clubs had a lead over Edmonton, they would tend to focus on shutting down Gretzky while getting into a defensive mode, which then opens up more ice and less defensive efficiency for the high-scoring Messier-line. By contrast, the Islanders generally didn't have a second line as prolific as Messier-Anderson, so much of the scoring (if it occured) was going to be by the top line.Mark Messier's numbers when trailing are incredible, as were his linemate Glenn Anderson's. So many times when the Oilers were trailing, it was Messier's line scoring to get them back in the game. I'm not sure I know why, but it is likely one of the reason's for Messier's very high reputation as a playoff performer.
Wait, hold the phone here. Your stats actually show that Gretzky scored more points than Bossy when each team was trailing. We should probably keep that clear. The "edging out in point production" is your guess based on ice-time estimates that aren't going to be very accurate.
If one could find games where Bossy played significantly more minutes thatn his average and see how his performance was compared to his average game point production, we would get an idea if Bossy would have scored that much more or if he became ineffective with a great load of ice time.
This is the kind of analysis we need more of!I've compiled some interesting data about Bossy and Gretzky scoring while trailing, while the game was tied, and with the lead. I'll look at the 1980-1983 playoffs for Bossy, and the 1984-1988 playoffs for Gretzky. And for Bossy, I'll remove any stats from the six playoff games he missed (5 in 1980, 1 in 1983).
The Islanders spent 21% of their ice time trailing, 31% tied, and 48% leading.
The Oilers spent 20% of their ice time trailing, 30% tied, and 50% leading.
The Islanders scored 4.11 G/60 while trailing, 4.50 G/60 while tied, 4.92 G/60 while leading, and 4.62 G/60 overall.
The Oilers scored 5.01 G/60 while trailing, 4.42 G/50 while tied, 4.70 G/60 while leading, and 4.68 G/60 overall.
Really they were very similar teams when it came to scoring in the playoffs. The biggest difference regarding these stats is the Oilers were a bit more dangerous when trailing and the Islanders scored a little more with the lead.
The takeaway from the team stats is that the teams were very similar offensively. But Bossy and Gretzky were very different when it came to their individual scoring distributions.
Here's how they scored while trailing. And I'll add Mark Messier and Bryan Trottier in as well.
Trailing
Mark Messier - 18 G, 23 A, 41 P
Wayne Gretzky - 7 G, 25 A, 32 P
Mike Bossy - 13 G, 16 A, 29 P
Bryan Trottier - 4 G, 16 A, 20 P
Putting on a per-minute basis (team minutes, because I don't have individual TOI numbers):
Mark Messier - 1.01 G, 2.31 P per team 60
Mike Bossy - 0.85 G, 1.89 P per team 60
Wayne Gretzky - 0.39 G, 1.80 P per team 60
Bryan Trottier - 0.26 G, 1.30 P per team 60
When his team was trailing, Bossy scored more than twice as many goals as Gretzky and edged him out in point production as well. And oddly enough, Mark Messier led both of them.
Tied
Wayne Gretzky - 17 G, 33 A, 50 P
Mike Bossy - 23 G, 15 A, 38 P
Mark Messier - 12 G, 19 A, 31 P
Bryan Trottier - 8 G, 21 A, 29 P
And per team minute:
Wayne Gretzky - 0.65 G/60, 1.92 P/60
Mike Bossy - 0.99 G/60, 1.64 P/60
Mark Messier - 0.46 G/60, 1.36 P/60
Bryan Trottier - 0.35 G/60, 1.25 P/60
Bossy was clearly the best goal scorer while tied. Gretzky had the edge as a point scorer, but not by that much over Bossy.
Leading
Wayne Gretzky - 31 G, 65 A, 96 P
Mark Messier - 18 G, 33 A, 51 P
Bryan Trottier - 22 G, 27 A, 49 P
Mike Bossy - 25 G, 19 A, 44 P
And per team minute:
Wayne Gretzky - 0.71 G/60, 2.21 P/60
Bryan Trottier - 0.63 G/60, 1.39 P/60
Mike Bossy - 0.71 G/60, 1.25 P/60
Mark Messier - 0.38 G/60, 1.17 P/60
With the lead, Gretzky matched Bossy as a goal scorer and nearly doubled him as a point scorer. Bossy and Messier were much less impressive as scorers with the lead as they were when trailing or tied. Bryan Trottier's playoff goal scoring was also largely with the lead, he was far behind Bossy as a goal scorer when trailing or tied.
I'll add one more thing. The Islanders scored 62 goals to give their team a 4 goal lead or more, and Bossy had a point on only 12 of them. The Oilers scored 60 such goals, and Gretzky had a point on 29 of them. So Gretzky pretty clearly had a longer leash to play and to score in blowouts.
Conclusions
As playoff point scorers in the dynasty years, Mike Bossy and Wayne Gretzky were roughly equal in the 50% of the game that their teams were tied or behind. Gretzky nearly doubled Bossy as a point scorer in the 50% of the game that their team was leading. That's a very dramatic difference!
Some of that difference was because Al Arbour's style of coaching with the lead was to lengthen his bench and rest his top players, while Sather shortened his bench, so Gretzky played more ice time with the lead than Bossy did. Some of it was because the Islanders didn't play as aggressively with the lead. Gretzky's game was also suited well to counterattacking against teams pressing to tie the game.
It's possible that Bossy might actually have been the more efficient scorer when trailing/tied if he played less ice time than Gretzky, but unfortunately we don't have those numbers.
When breaking down the numbers in this manner, it's very clear that when the Islanders were trailing or tied, Mike Bossy was the offensive leader over Trottier. Trottier only came close to Bossy in scoring because he got to play and score more with the lead, and because Bossy missed a few games. Trottier's goal scoring in particular was dependent on scoring when his team was leading.
Mark Messier's numbers when trailing are incredible, as were his linemate Glenn Anderson's. So many times when the Oilers were trailing, it was Messier's line scoring to get them back in the game. I'm not sure I know why, but it is likely one of the reason's for Messier's very high reputation as a playoff performer.