OT: Watcha Drinkin'?: Part I

[Do you want ants]

If you're as much of a snob as I am (and it sounds like a handful others are), I recommend the Craft-Check app. It helps you figure out which breweries are actually craft (as defined by the brewer's association). I agree it's not a perfect definition, but can be used to filter out some obvious ones. I see too many people drinking Goose Island or Ballast Point and talking about how they "support local" and "drink only craft".

I'm 100% set on never giving another penny to AB-Inbev (and other goliaths).

What’s your stance on Sam Adams and Yuengling? The brewers association changes their definitions every couple of years to keep certain breweries in for monetary reasons.

Or others like Creature Comforts (financed by Diageo (guinness and spirits)). Firestone Walker/Boulevard (owned by Duval Moorgaat). All show up as independent craft.

 

[Edge]

I think you meant to say inexpensive, only 13 bucks at my local wine shop. I've paid $50 for one bottle of Pinot Noir and that was Elk Cove, well worth it.

If you like Pinot Noir, try a German Spatburgunder sometime.

Haha. Yes, inexpensive. It goes for about $30 - $35 at a restaurant, but is typically in the $13-$15 in most shops.

At that price point, I highly recommend it as a table wine.

 

[CasusBelli]

Lagavulin neat, water back.

 

[LORDE]

Bumping this thread because I saw something ragging on "American beer"

This may be an unpopular opinion, but North American high end craft beer is the best beer in the world.

I specify "high end" because the mediocrity in the craft beer world can be overwhelming with everybody and their mother trying to make beer nowadays.

What is considered standard American beer like Bud/Miller/Coors and their minions are in fact inferior to the beer from the rest of the world, and it seems like all American beer gets lumped into this category.

fight me.

Yet Bud is the most popular worldwide and in most pubs in Ireland that’s what they drink. Go fig.

Personally bud heavy and light are for watching college football sat... all day... the prob with so many of the good crafts u can get “everywhere” now is that they aren’t the same “everywhere”

Sam Adams and Harpoon are great examples (large and small). Have one in BOS then have one in FL and let me know if they’re the same. (Hint: The most certainly are NOT)

Sam here in central FL is brewed in Tampa at Ybor City brewing and if u think u can’t get a bagel or good pizza in FL and it’s true because of the water. Guess what is the main ingredient in beer lol

Fat Tire now also... the list goes on and on

 

[mrhockey193195]

What’s your stance on Sam Adams and Yuengling? The brewers association changes their definitions every couple of years to keep certain breweries in for monetary reasons.

Or others like Creature Comforts (financed by Diageo (guinness and spirits)). Firestone Walker/Boulevard (owned by Duval Moorgaat). All show up as independent craft.

The issue isn't black and white to me (except with AB-Inbev), and my issue isn't the size of the brewery or who owns it so much as what the strategy of the company is. AB-Inbev has made it painfully clear that they want to squash the craft industry, period. If they had it their way, bud/budlight/michelob ultra would have 100% of market share. And their strategy to kill craft beer was two-fold: 1) by flexing their (illegal) distribution monopoly muscles ("100% share of mind"), and 2) by buying craft breweries, more often than not cutting back on experimentation (exception being Goose Island) and flooding the market with the more mundane offerings.

At the same time, I will never begrudge a craft brewery for "selling out". I don't hate John Hall. He built an amazing brand and an amazing brewery and got paid, good on him. I just don't want to buy that beer anymore because I don't want to support AB-Inbev's mission.

I'm not anti-Boston Beer Company or Yuengling (granted, I don't personally drink any of their beers). BBC and Yuengling are still independently owned, they have just become massive breweries. Generally, nothing wrong with that, and BBC in particular are still extremely pro-experimentation (e.g., Utopias).

As a former LA resident, Firestone used to be a staple of mine. When the Duvel investment came in (with them and Bouleveard), I was skeptical but didn't write them off. What has actually turned me off to Firestone more was their first batch of Parabola after the investment & first brewed outside of Paso Robles (actually brewed at Boulevard, which also made me skeptical) was terrible, and they didn't have the balls to say "yep, we f***ed up this year's bathes, sorry guys". They continue to pretend like it's a great beer (it isn't) and pour that vintage at their taprooms pretending like it's aged well (it hasn't). So that to me was a sign that they are no longer a craft brewery that's all about the beer and being upfront with their customers.

EDIT: I forgot the recent acquisition of Dogfish Head by BBC. I'll admit, that scares me a bit, but I want to see what happens first before I write either off.

 

[mrhockey193195]

So what in your opinion are the best local beers?

In the NYC area, Other Half & Grimm are both exceptional. I've also heard amazing things about Hudson Valley Brewing - I've only had one beer by them though (and it was excellent FWIW!).

 

[Do you want ants]

The issue isn't black and white to me (except with AB-Inbev), and my issue isn't the size of the brewery or who owns it so much as what the strategy of the company is. AB-Inbev has made it painfully clear that they want to squash the craft industry, period. If they had it their way, bud/budlight/michelob ultra would have 100% of market share. And their strategy to kill craft beer was two-fold: 1) by flexing their (illegal) distribution monopoly muscles ("100% share of mind"), and 2) by buying craft breweries, more often than not cutting back on experimentation (exception being Goose Island) and flooding the market with the more mundane offerings.

At the same time, I will never begrudge a craft brewery for "selling out". I don't hate John Hall. He built an amazing brand and an amazing brewery and got paid, good on him. I just don't want to buy that beer anymore because I don't want to support AB-Inbev's mission.

I'm not anti-Boston Beer Company or Yuengling (granted, I don't personally drink any of their beers). BBC and Yuengling are still independently owned, they have just become massive breweries. Generally, nothing wrong with that, and BBC in particular are still extremely pro-experimentation (e.g., Utopias).

As a former LA resident, Firestone used to be a staple of mine. When the Duvel investment came in (with them and Bouleveard), I was skeptical but didn't write them off. What has actually turned me off to Firestone more was their first batch of Parabola after the investment & first brewed outside of Paso Robles (actually brewed at Boulevard, which also made me skeptical) was terrible, and they didn't have the balls to say "yep, we ****ed up this year's bathes, sorry guys". They continue to pretend like it's a great beer (it isn't) and pour that vintage at their taprooms pretending like it's aged well (it hasn't). So that to me was a sign that they are no longer a craft brewery that's all about the beer and being upfront with their customers.

EDIT: I forgot the recent acquisition of Dogfish Head by BBC. I'll admit, that scares me a bit, but I want to see what happens first before I write either off.

Fair enough. It personally doesn’t matter to me, who supports what or spends their money on what, that’s everyone’s personal choice. I just like asking the question to people, to see why they make decisions the way they do.

I’ve been on the wholesaler and supplier/brewery side in the beer business pretty much my entire working career and around it my whole life. I can tell you the independently owned AB wholesalers treat craft breweries significantly better than ABI owned ones, same goes for MillerCoors. The In-Bev portion is still a very sore subject for the independently owned ones.

ABI doesn’t meddle with their breweries as much as you think. They for the most part leave their breweries alone on the innovation side. The difference is they’ll have their other facilities contract brew the stuff they want to take national. WW Uncle Rick’s is mostly brewed at Devils Backbone and 10 Barrel Crush is being brewed at Wicked Weed and Blue Point. But for the most part Goose always had a mediocre core and Wicked Weed and Elysian are still doing their own thing speciality wise, it’s just not leaving their home or regional markets anymore.

Constellation on the other hand doesn’t know how to stay out of its own way. They have pretty much killed what was left of Ballast Point.

I wouldn’t worry too much about Dogfish changing. Rumor is BBC bought them to help keep their Truly/FMB numbers from over taking their beer totals.

As more and more breweries buy each other you’ll see a lot more “collaborations”. Oskar Blues is brewing CC Jai Alai at their NC facility and every time they screw it up, they release it as an OB/CC collaboration.

Curious about your illegal distribution/monopoly comments. Feel free to elaborate on that when you have time. I enjoy a good self distribution vs wholesale conversation.

 

[JCProdigy]

The issue isn't black and white to me (except with AB-Inbev), and my issue isn't the size of the brewery or who owns it so much as what the strategy of the company is. AB-Inbev has made it painfully clear that they want to squash the craft industry, period. If they had it their way, bud/budlight/michelob ultra would have 100% of market share. And their strategy to kill craft beer was two-fold: 1) by flexing their (illegal) distribution monopoly muscles ("100% share of mind"), and 2) by buying craft breweries, more often than not cutting back on experimentation (exception being Goose Island) and flooding the market with the more mundane offerings.

At the same time, I will never begrudge a craft brewery for "selling out". I don't hate John Hall. He built an amazing brand and an amazing brewery and got paid, good on him. I just don't want to buy that beer anymore because I don't want to support AB-Inbev's mission.

I'm not anti-Boston Beer Company or Yuengling (granted, I don't personally drink any of their beers). BBC and Yuengling are still independently owned, they have just become massive breweries. Generally, nothing wrong with that, and BBC in particular are still extremely pro-experimentation (e.g., Utopias).

As a former LA resident, Firestone used to be a staple of mine. When the Duvel investment came in (with them and Bouleveard), I was skeptical but didn't write them off. What has actually turned me off to Firestone more was their first batch of Parabola after the investment & first brewed outside of Paso Robles (actually brewed at Boulevard, which also made me skeptical) was terrible, and they didn't have the balls to say "yep, we ****ed up this year's bathes, sorry guys". They continue to pretend like it's a great beer (it isn't) and pour that vintage at their taprooms pretending like it's aged well (it hasn't). So that to me was a sign that they are no longer a craft brewery that's all about the beer and being upfront with their customers.

EDIT: I forgot the recent acquisition of Dogfish Head by BBC. I'll admit, that scares me a bit, but I want to see what happens first before I write either off.

I just wanted to quote this because @mrhockey193195 is right on point. Great post and spot on regarding AbInbev!

Although I still am ok with Firestone Walker. Beers like Stickee Monkey and Velvet Merkin are still tasting great and I had a 2019 draft Parabola the other day here in MD and it tasted fine.

I'm not too worried about BBC and DFH merger as I trust in Sam (especially) and Jim.

 

[JCProdigy]

Sam here in central FL is brewed in Tampa at Ybor City brewing and if u think u can’t get a bagel or good pizza in FL and it’s true because of the water. Guess what is the main ingredient in beer lol

Fat Tire now also... the list goes on and on

Actually it's pretty easy to match the water profile of the water a brewery uses if they release it to the public. Homebrewers have been matching profiles forever. I do so whenever I'm trying a clone of a beer. I know for a fact that BBC/Sam Adams matches their water profiles at all production facilities so it's interesting what you say and granted I haven't had a Sam in a while, certainly not down in FL.

So what in your opinion are the best local beers?

You are very lucky because there are so many damn good breweries in the NYC area. In the 5 boroughs proper? Other Half in Brooklyn is fantastic. Finback, Threes, Interboro, Grimm, LIC Project. All killing it right now. If you are willing to travel a little into the Hudson Valley then Equillibrium for your Juice bomb Hazies and Saurez Family for the ultra clean and crisp beers they produce.

In fact if anybody can go, I suggest Green City beer fest in brooklyn on 6/22 put on by Other Half. Green City

Great lineup of breweries/beers.

 

[Kaapo Cabana]

I disagree completely about the Macro comments and only drinking local. While I’m not a fan of them (bud Lt, Miller Lt, Pbr, etc) they ‘re true to style for an American adjunct lager. They also have the advantage of buying in massive quantities through hop contracts and other things that give them access to best quality ingredients. Not to mention their labs and brewing facilities are far more advanced than craft breweries. I’m talking large scale ones likes New Belgium, Firestone Walker, Sam adams, let alone tiny local ones who put out less than 5k barrels a year. Their beers are just made for the masses who prefer adjunct lagers. Nothing wrong with liking or disliking them. Different strokes for different folks. But this myth that craft adjunct lagers are superior to Marco Bc of ingredients needs to die. There is a reason Coors banquet, Pbr and other macros continue to win and place in these award categories over craft ones.

To the local is better portion. I’ll ask why? I’ve got no problem supporting local anything, as long as it’s good. But buying local craft for the sake of it being local as always annoyed me. There are some amazing craft breweries out there. A lot worth visiting and even camping out for limited stuff. But there are far more awful ones that are trying to make a quick buck, who didn’t realize how tough it is to be profitable in the industry. And if you’re not a top 100 craft brewery, chance are you’re getting old or left over hops and malt. Which means you’re not using the best or freshest ingredients. Why should you pay $25 for a 4pk or an ipa from a craft brewery who can’t dial in their consistency on their flagship ipa so they tell you it’s version 2.0 or 20.0, so they don’t have to drain pour a bad batch.

TLDR: Macros are well made from a BJCP stylistic stand point, buying local is overrated.

sorry for the delayed response

to the first bolded

TBH it comes down to preference. I like most styles of beer, but my "go-to" would probably be high IBU, hop-forward IPAs. These beers tend to lose their flavor profile rather quickly compared to other styles. Its not that they "go bad" its more that the bitterness starts fading into the background over time, and it becomes a different beer. Its hard to get beers to the shelves quickly when they have to be distributed across the country, so I prefer local versions of this style. Despite the distribution power of Sierra Nevada, it took us a month to get Celebration in last year. Now Celebration is still great after a month, but by then the clock is already ticking.

to the second bolded, I agree. part of buying local is that the product has to be good. Quality, or lack thereof, trumps my preference to buy local.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Fair enough. It personally doesn’t matter to me, who supports what or spends their money on what, that’s everyone’s personal choice. I just like asking the question to people, to see why they make decisions the way they do.

I’ve been on the wholesaler and supplier/brewery side in the beer business pretty much my entire working career and around it my whole life. I can tell you the independently owned AB wholesalers treat craft breweries significantly better than ABI owned ones, same goes for MillerCoors. The In-Bev portion is still a very sore subject for the independently owned ones.

...

Curious about your illegal distribution/monopoly comments. Feel free to elaborate on that when you have time. I enjoy a good self distribution vs wholesale conversation.

What I meant by my distribution comments was that AB-Inbev's distribution network was given explicit instructions to carry only (or vast majority) ABI products under threat of ABI pulling out and cutting off their supply entirely. It was classic bully-business tactics, and the goal was to keep craft off the map. When ABI gave in and realized craft already had 10% of market share in the US, their strategy only slightly changed - they bought Goose Island, Blue Point, Elysian, etc. and then required that their distributors carry those brands along with their staples and nothing independently craft.

The fact that they got off the hook by paying the SEC a $6 million fine is laughable to me.

That being said - I appreciate your thoughts as an insider in the industry, that's very interesting to hear about the Inbev in particular being the bad actor in the eyes of wholesalers.

 

[broadwayblue]

Actually it's pretty easy to match the water profile of the water a brewery uses if they release it to the public. Homebrewers have been matching profiles forever. I do so whenever I'm trying a clone of a beer. I know for a fact that BBC/Sam Adams matches their water profiles at all production facilities so it's interesting what you say and granted I haven't had a Sam in a while, certainly not down in FL.



You are very lucky because there are so many damn good breweries in the NYC area. In the 5 boroughs proper? Other Half in Brooklyn is fantastic. Finback, Threes, Interboro, Grimm, LIC Project. All killing it right now. If you are willing to travel a little into the Hudson Valley then Equillibrium for your Juice bomb Hazies and Saurez Family for the ultra clean and crisp beers they produce.

In fact if anybody can go, I suggest Green City beer fest in brooklyn on 6/22 put on by Other Half. Green City

Great lineup of breweries/beers.

Thanks. I'll have to check some of these out.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

In the NYC area, Other Half & Grimm are both exceptional. I've also heard amazing things about Hudson Valley Brewing - I've only had one beer by them though (and it was excellent FWIW!).

Singlecut

 

[Do you want ants]

What I meant by my distribution comments was that AB-Inbev's distribution network was given explicit instructions to carry only (or vast majority) ABI products under threat of ABI pulling out and cutting off their supply entirely. It was classic bully-business tactics, and the goal was to keep craft off the map. When ABI gave in and realized craft already had 10% of market share in the US, their strategy only slightly changed - they bought Goose Island, Blue Point, Elysian, etc. and then required that their distributors carry those brands along with their staples and nothing independently craft.

The fact that they got off the hook by paying the SEC a $6 million fine is laughable to me.

That being said - I appreciate your thoughts as an insider in the industry, that's very interesting to hear about the Inbev in particular being the bad actor in the eyes of wholesalers.

ABI can pull that with the wholesalers that they own, but it’s different for wholesalers they don’t. And to be fair, most independent craft breweries don’t even look to go that route, unless they’re a brewery looking to be acquired by ABI. As long as a non ABI owned wholesaler doesn’t violate their equity agreement, ABI can’t pull their distribution rights. It’s incredibly difficult to take away distribution rights in most states. This applies to craft breweries as well.

What they can do, and rarely do, is deny one independently owned AB wholesaler from buying another one. This is similar with MillerCoors and constellation wholesalers as well.

They also don’t force the AB network to pick up the brands they acquire. Most do because it will come with more guaranteed chain placements and corporate financial support. Which all the big players can do as well.

As for using product availability as leverage for brand specific focus, that’s across the board for all beverage Suppliers. Small Craft Breweries do it too, by limiting/allocating speciality items and other inventory items. Liquor and wine do it too. The big difference is the big Craft Breweries, MillerCoors, ABI, etc have deeper pockets and can put better incentive plans and sampling dollars (states that’s legal) into place.

Believe it or not, they want you to buy craft and spiked seltzer’s, but it’s because of the profit margins. They can sell less and make more. They just want you to buy their product only. That’s why you’ll see MillerCoors and other craft breweries start acquiring each other at a faster pace. The industry is growing at a much slower pace than the breweries entering it.


Big fan of what Wild Leap has been putting out. Their Alpha abstraction series is phenomenal. Also can finally get Toppling Goliath regularly now and really impressed with their core. Specialty stuff was always solid.

 

[Do you want ants]

sorry for the delayed response

to the first bolded

TBH it comes down to preference. I like most styles of beer, but my "go-to" would probably be high IBU, hop-forward IPAs. These beers tend to lose their flavor profile rather quickly compared to other styles. Its not that they "go bad" its more that the bitterness starts fading into the background over time, and it becomes a different beer. Its hard to get beers to the shelves quickly when they have to be distributed across the country, so I prefer local versions of this style. Despite the distribution power of Sierra Nevada, it took us a month to get Celebration in last year. Now Celebration is still great after a month, but by then the clock is already ticking.

to the second bolded, I agree. part of buying local is that the product has to be good. Quality, or lack thereof, trumps my preference to buy local.

That makes a lot of sense and I totally understand. And let’s be honest, unless you’re a niche brewery, you can’t survive without a decent IPA.

NEIPAs and unfiltered IPAs in general are really testing the boundaries on date codes and distribution. They may say 90-120 days, but after 30-45 days, good luck. And that’s assuming everything was stored at the proper temps from start to finish.

 

[MikeSteaks]

I'm currently drinking my home brewed NEIPA.

 

[Do you want ants]

I'm currently drinking my home brewed NEIPA.

What hops did you brew it with?

 

[Kaapo Cabana]

Focal. Banger.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Focal. Banger.

So good. I almost feel like it's better than Heady Topper. It definitely is more consistent.

 

[MikeSteaks]

What hops did you brew it with?

Citra, Chinook, Simcoe, and Cenntenial

 

[Do you want ants]

Citra, Chinook, Simcoe, and Cenntenial

Solid line up. What’s the break down of hop additions for bittering, flavor and aroma? Did you dry hop?

 

[True Blue]

So good.

Tastes so good when it hits your lips.....

Ok, you beer snobs. Scotches and red anyone? Very rarely known red wine from Robert Biale. Love the petite syrahs. Also been loving Talisker for scotch lately. Cannot do too much smoke as it tasted like campfire, but those are good.

 

[UnSandvich]

I'm not a big scotch guy, but I did like Monkey Shoulder when I had that, very sweet. Dalwhinnie isn't bad either

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Tastes so good when it hits your lips.....

Ok, you beer snobs. Scotches and red anyone? Very rarely known red wine from Robert Biale. Love the petite syrahs. Also been loving Talisker for scotch lately. Cannot do too much smoke as it tasted like campfire, but those are good.

Like scotch. But not a snob, like beer. I’m easy. Dewars is fine with me.

 

[Kocur Dill]

Bought Allagash Triple today. Not impressed. Have had better Triples.

Recently had:

Sixpoint, Hi Res and Double Res. Liked the Hi Res a lot more for an Imperial IPA, the Double Res was bitter and boosy.

Lagunitas limited annual, The Waldos was a disappointment this year. Watered down compared to years past. It use to have a chewy viscosity to it. Sort of like baby food apricots. An acquired taste for sure, but at $17 for a 6pk you felt like you were getting your money's worth in something you hadn't experienced in a beer before. Not bad over all if I'd never had the previous incarnations, just felt cheated a bit.

Been sipping Old Grand Dad Bonded too. Buffalo Trace is in short supply in Mid Hud, and Eagle Rare is a bit pricier on my wallet lately to be downing a bottle every 4 weeks or so. And ER as a BT product is disapearing off shelves too. Store owner said there are distribution issues. Booooooo.

Sexton Irish is nice if you like Jameson. It's similar but aged in sherry casks and cheaper. The sherry casks add some sweetness and another level of complexity to the Irish Whiskey 3 note character. Very under rated and under priced compared to Jameson.

Still grabbing Ardbeg 10 when I run dry. One local shop is at $44 bottle which is a steal around here. Can't pass up that favorite, just nurse the bottle though. Not a regular drinker like the cheaper bourbons Lol.