Was Randy Carlyle (as a player) actually good?

[The Panther]

My childhood memories of Randy Carlyle are all of him with Winnipeg, around 1985 to 1990, accumulating 'minuses' vs. the Oilers. So, even just as a kid, I didn't have a very positive impression of his play, though this was clearly unfair. (To my kid eyes, with his withered look and receding hairline, he also appeared to be about 60 years old, which made him yet less cool.)

And I feel like the only time he's ever mentioned on this forum is almost as the butt of jokes revolving around the 1981 Norris Trophy, which he won but seemingly in suspect fashion. He did have five 50+ point seasons, and he even received some stray Norris votes in 1982 and 1985.

I know he was with Pittsburgh in 1981 (and they made the playoffs regularly with Carlyle in the late-70s / early-80s), but I had no idea until today that Carlyle had started with the Maple Leafs. (In classic Ballard-era transaction brilliance, the Leafs traded him for "Dave Burrows", who appears to have been a fourth-line scrub who was basically done when Toronto acquired him).

I also have no memory of Carlyle after spring 1990, so I was surprised to see he not only played in 1990-91.... he also played through 1991-92 and even into 1992-93! (Thus, he was briefly a Jets' teammate of Selanne... which seems strange.)

All told, he had a very successful and long career. A second-round pick with over 1000 games, 11 playoff appearances, a Norris trophy.

My question is: Was he quite good, or not so much?

Click to read more...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Eh...he was fine for the time. If the league wasn't such garbage at the time, he wouldn't have sniffed a Norris I don't think. He was short and fat and not a very good skater. He didn't play much positional defense, he'd use his "stocky" (fat) frame to play physically near the boards and what not...but his rush absorption and what not, wasn't very good. Didn't play with a lot of urgency.

Good puck handler, very good seam passer which might have been his best feature. He could shoot certainly, but I actually think because his lateral skating wasn't amazing, that his seam pass ability was his best utilized strength.

He got hurt a lot because he didn't take care of himself. He was moved to left wing on occasion to hide his defensive warts, especially when he was in a slump.

When you, Panther, really started to see him on your radar with his trade to Winnipeg, he tried to lose 30 pounds and sort of re-invent himself. That probably extended his career a number of years (I was surprised to learn that he played into the 90's too, I didn't recall that). I'm a little less familiar with his Winnipeg time, but I imagine he must have improved defensively in order to play that long...because it doesn't appear he was deployed as a power play specialist.

One other thing I'll say is that you're not characterizing Dave Burrows correctly. He wasn't a "fourth line" anything. He was actually one of the best defensive defensemen in the 70's. He could skate backwards faster than a lot of guys could skate forward at the time. He injured his knee after a run-in with Bob Dailey in 1978 and I think it was the beginning of the end for him. Though, he made the 1980 All Star Game, he was only there because Borje Salming (the Leafs representative) was getting surgery on his sinuses...still though, Burrows was more like the Niklas Hjalmarsson of the 70's than some scrub...

 

[overpass]

Carlyle tested positive for steroids at the 1989 World Championships. His teammates remembered that when they heard the words "steroids" and "Randy" in the same sentence, everyone in the room laughed. Nobody on the team looked less likely than Randy Carlyle to be guilty of working out, let alone taking steroids.

He was cleared after his B sample came back clean.

 

[Staniowski]

Yeah, he was a good defensman for many years, certainly had considerable talent...but he was never among the very best defensemen in the league.

Even though he only played for the Leafs for two seasons, I remember him roughly equally on each of the three teams he played for.

 

[Gorskyontario]

He was good, but he didn't deserve his norris in 81. He played 8 games a year + playoffs against Gretzky and/or Messier. Not an easy task.

 

[carjackmalone]

Comparable to Dave Babych

 

[Crosby2010]

Probably best known for being the only player to win a Norris Trophy that is eligible for the HHOF and isn't in. There will be more though. Giordano and Subban immediately come to mind with a couple of others potentially being among them.

Also remembered for winning a Norris in 1981 over Potvin which is just weird. Barely won it as well. I am not sure if it was just voter fatigue against Potvin or what.

 

[The Panther]

One other thing I'll say is that you're not characterizing Dave Burrows correctly. He wasn't a "fourth line" anything. He was actually one of the best defensive defensemen in the 70's. He could skate backwards faster than a lot of guys could skate forward at the time. He injured his knee after a run-in with Bob Dailey in 1978 and I think it was the beginning of the end for him. Though, he made the 1980 All Star Game, he was only there because Borje Salming (the Leafs representative) was getting surgery on his sinuses...still though, Burrows was more like the Niklas Hjalmarsson of the 70's than some scrub...

Ah, my bad. I was confusing Burrows with someone else. I thought he was a forward...

 

[Felidae]

So.. if he didn't deserve his Norris trophy based on his actual play, I'm just wondering what the narrative was at the time that got him to win it.

 

[reckoning]

The trade to Pittsburgh looks bad in retrospect, but the Leafs had a great season in 77-78 and felt they may only be a piece or two away from being a serious Cup contender. Burrows was considered one of the top defensive defencemen in the league, while Carlyle was having trouble adapting to Roger Neilson's defence-first system.

The '81 Norris win also looks strange years later, but he did lead defencemen in points that year, and there may have been some voter fatigue at work ( the last 13 Norris Trophies had gone to Orr, Potvin or Robinson ), but even with it I don't anyone at the time considered him to be better than Potvin. Maybe similar to other players winning Harts in recent years, but the consensus is still that McDavid is the best player.

A couple of posters have already mentioned his weight/conditioning. In 1981 he expected to be a key contributor for Canada in the Canada Cup, but Scotty Bowman was not pleased with how out of shape he was after the summer off, and he ended up being cut.

He was also one of the last remaining handful of players who didn't wear a helmet.

 

[Mike C]

Carlyle tested positive for steroids at the 1989 World Championships. His teammates remembered that when they heard the words "steroids" and "Randy" in the same sentence, everyone in the room laughed. Nobody on the team looked less likely than Randy Carlyle to be guilty of working out, let alone taking steroids.

He was cleared after his B sample came back clean.

He must have been on it a couple of years prior. 200 plus penalty minutes in 87-88. Roid Rage I'm suspecting

Guy was like -135 for career

 

[Mike C]

So.. if he didn't deserve his Norris trophy based on his actual play, I'm just wondering what the narrative was at the time that got him to win it.

The narrative was Potvin captained a Cup Dyansty and had a plus/minus 55 points higher while scoring 4 more goals and having 7 less points while no doubt playing more high stress impact minutes

I'm I allowed to say it was a fraudulent election??

 

[MadLuke]

So.. if he didn't deserve his Norris trophy based on his actual play, I'm just wondering what the narrative was at the time that got him to win it.

Not obvious, the penguins the season before went 30-37-1, with the best season of a defenceman in the NHL on their team now, they went..... 30-37-13.

 

[Moose Head]

The narrative was Potvin captained a Cup Dyansty and had a plus/minus 55 points higher while scoring 4 more goals and having 7 less points while no doubt playing more high stress impact minutes

I'm I allowed to say it was a fraudulent election??

Weird thing is, Potvin finished first in Allstar voting. His margin of victory was greater than Carlyle’s for the Norris.

Carlyle was basically a lesser Reed Larson with one outlier year.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Also, of possibly no interest...The Hockey News did a fan vote on all stars and the like in April of 1981...

They voted Carlyle as the best defenseman --

Carlyle was selected as the best defenseman of the year with such outstanding blueliner defenders as Bourque. Potvin, Robinson and sensational rookie Larry Murphy of the L.A. Kings also figuring prominently in the voting.

BUT...

They did not vote him as a first-team all star...

Potvin and Robinson were there. Carlyle and Bourque were on the second-team.

 

[Mike C]

Also, of possibly no interest...The Hockey News did a fan vote on all stars and the like in April of 1981...

They voted Carlyle as the best defenseman --



BUT...

They did not vote him as a first-team all star...

Potvin and Robinson were there. Carlyle and Bourque were on the second-team.

Kinda off beat logic eh?

 

[Mike C]

Also, of possibly no interest...The Hockey News did a fan vote on all stars and the like in April of 1981...

They voted Carlyle as the best defenseman --



BUT...

They did not vote him as a first-team all star...

Potvin and Robinson were there. Carlyle and Bourque were on the second-team.

Murphy was exquisite that year. I think Greschner should have finished much higher also. I'd have had no qualm with Murphy winning it over Potvin. To me it was those two were very close

 

[MS]

So.. if he didn't deserve his Norris trophy based on his actual play, I'm just wondering what the narrative was at the time that got him to win it.

He led NHL D in points and Pittsburgh had never had a major award winner.

Voters were bored with the Robinson/Potvin/Salming dominance from 1975-1980 and Carlyle was a young, exciting guy from a random team.

Potvin should have won that Norris, probably unanimously.

 

[overpass]

Bob Grove, who covered the Penguins for over 30 years, didn't think much of Carlyle's defensive play even in his Norris season. He wrote this in February 1982, a year after Carlyle's Norris:

Perhaps it's the pressure of being named the league's best defenseman last season, but captain Randy Carlyle is having a miserable year.

After scoring 16 goals and adding 67 assists last season, Carlyle has just eight goals and 41 assists thus far in the current campaign.

Carlyle's point totals last season went a long way toward giving him the James Norris Trophy; he did not win it with outstanding defensive play. And this season, on top of his offensive problems, Carlyle is struggling on defense, often throwing the puck away.

It's not unusual for a player to have a bad season, just unfortunate. Carlyle will not win the Norris trophy this year. He will not even be a factor.

And here's a classic unnamed scout quote about Carlyle from 1984, when the Penguins were looking to trade "the sometimes interested Carlyle" and were in talks with the Flames. It's one answer to the thread title lol.

"He's a good player to get," one scout said, "if you want a winger, not a defenceman."

 

[Dale53130]

Bob Grove, who covered the Penguins for over 30 years, didn't think much of Carlyle's defensive play even in his Norris season. He wrote this in February 1982, a year after Carlyle's Norris:



And here's a classic unnamed scout quote about Carlyle from 1984, when the Penguins were looking to trade "the sometimes interested Carlyle" and were in talks with the Flames. It's one answer to the thread title lol.

He wound up producing at a similar rate that season (1981-82), and he was basically a point-per-game producer from 1980-83. The team finished 14th, 15th and 20th out of 21 teams for Goals For in those three seasons. Not that I think that he should have won the Norris, as Potvin is my favorite defenseman of all Time. Dave Babych is probably a good comparison, in that they both got better defensively as time went on, though Babych made a bigger jump in that regard.

In the summer/fall of 1990, I worked at a KFC (fry-guy), and I noticed that Randy Carlyle was standing there, looking at the menu (only take-out at this particular location). I went up to him, only the cashier was around, and I asked him if he was Randy Carlyle. He said "No", as though he had no idea who Randy Carlyle was. It was 100% him. I don't blame him, I did give him an out after all.

He might have been listed at 5'10", but I never thought that he looked small/undersized. He was more like a Dale Hunter in terms of size (frame-wise though not in terms of conditioning), that they might be 5'10", but it wasn't exactly hindering either one of them

 

[Gorskyontario]

I don't remember him being bad defensively with the Jets. I didn't see him much or at all with the Penguins.