The Panther
Registered User
But what's this based on? Did Savard, Lafontaine, or Sedin ever drop the gloves and throw down with another NHLer? Because young Turgeon (in Buffalo) did.
Was Pierre Turgeon soft?
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Did you actually watch Savard play? He was always chopping and spearing guys. Definitely not soft. As far as 'star' centers go, he was one of the feistiest I remember as far as pure skill guys go.
Lafontaine was absolutely fearless playing. There's a reason the guys brains were very sadly scrambled, because he constantly went to the dirty areas and got caught.
10 fights in Savards career.
reckoning
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Did you actually watch Savard play? He was always chopping and spearing guys. Definitely not soft. As far as 'star' centers go, he was one of the feistiest I remember as far as pure skill guys go.
Lafontaine was absolutely fearless playing. There's a reason the guys brains were very sadly scrambled, because he constantly went to the dirty areas and got caught.
10 fights in Savards career. Savard was not shy about pushing back when someone tried to intimidate him.
Yeah. Savard wasn't shy about pushing back if someone tried to intimidate him. Granted, he'd usually retaliate with his stick and not his fists, but he got in more scraps than you'd expect from a smallish skill player
Turgeon only had one fighting major in his time in Buffalo, but it wasn't against Boston. It was Feb.18/90 against Dean Evasion of Hartford. As luck would have it, it's on YouTube.
I'd love to know what led to this. It's totally out of character for him.
The Panther
Registered User
Oh yeah, that's the one I was thinking of earlier.
My point wasn't to say that Savard or Lafontaine wasn't tough, but just to say that Turgeon was.
At the end of the day, if you're a top-minutes guy who spent 18-19 seasons in the NHL scoring 1300+ points (and 100 more in the playoffs), you're tough.
- Jan 22, 2007
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Yes, Turgeon was definitely considered soft during his era. Mainly because he was a big guy who didn't throw the body or get dirty. He was also a very mild-mannered gentleman, which added to his "softness" in the 90s. A more recent comparable is Rick Nash... another big body who wasn't physical.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Evason ran him. Then started throwing punches before Turgeon had his gloves off. Evason got two instigator penalties in the sequence.
vadim sharifijanov
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- Oct 10, 2007
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oof, for a guy who never fought it was bad luck that his one fight was against a lefty
MadArcand
Whaletarded
This makes it fairly clear that the whole Roy connection seems to be a random fabrication - certainly Stephane Roy seems to have a grudge against Kerry Huffman and not against Turgeon, so it would be a very weird basis for Patrick Roy to have one against Turgeon...
On the original topic, yeah Turgeon was "soft" in the sense of non-physical skilled centerman soft - just like great many others already mentioned. I mean, by that logic people could go around calling Sakic soft... but they don't, because he was better defensively and more competitive, maybe?
MadLuke
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- Jan 18, 2011
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Sakic was tough enough to do what he had to do in the playoff against Chris Chelios.
Should not mistake roughness (making it hard to play against to other) and toughness(able to play against rough player, taking punishment to make play, not missing play to avoid punishment, not taking bad penalty because you just received a dirty hit)
Malkin can be rough enough, but I am not sure if he is specially tough at all, mentally or physically (not close to an Ovechkin in those regards)
Toughness:
That really not about spearing others, Sedins, Lidstrom were quite tough (which helped them not take bad penalty, play 82 game seasons with first line minutes, play deep in the zone cycling style, etc...) even if they were not rough players.
Should not mistake roughness (making it hard to play against to other) and toughness(able to play against rough player, taking punishment to make play, not missing play to avoid punishment, not taking bad penalty because you just received a dirty hit)
Malkin can be rough enough, but I am not sure if he is specially tough at all, mentally or physically (not close to an Ovechkin in those regards)
Toughness:
- Physical Toughness: The ability of a material or person to withstand physical stress and not break or bend easily. For example, "The toughness of the steel made it ideal for construction."
- Mental Toughness: The ability to persevere through difficult situations and maintain a strong, determined attitude. For example, "Her mental toughness helped her overcome many challenges in life."
That really not about spearing others, Sedins, Lidstrom were quite tough (which helped them not take bad penalty, play 82 game seasons with first line minutes, play deep in the zone cycling style, etc...) even if they were not rough players.
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I vividly remember Turgeon avoiding puck battles, and the crowd booing him in Montreal.
I don't think Lafontaine ever avoided hits. Maybe thats why his career ended early, but it's also why people remember him much more fondly than Turgeon.
Crosby2010
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I think we tend to think about Savard as the dazzling end to end spinorama rusher that he was. And he was. He was a human highlight reel. Two players scored more points in the 1980s than him, we know the first one, the 2nd one was Stastny. All of that is true about Savard, he was an offensive dynamo. And while not a fighter per se, he certainly was involved out there. If I told you he has as many seasons with 100+ PIM as he does 100 point seasons I'll bet it surprises people. I'd call him "scrappy" out there. Not dirty, but definitely not afraid to get involved out there. He wasn't racking up Lady Byng votes by any means (and I actually like the Byng as an award). So for Savard he definitely wasn't soft. Was always really good in the playoffs and took his teams deep. Was glad he won a Cup with Montreal albeit he was injured for much of the playoffs. I think he earned it.
overpass
Registered User
I posted a ton of newspaper quotes about Turgeon's playoff performances in this thread. TLDR - he was consistently a disappointment in the playoffs, playing without intensity, disappearing, and not lifting his team.
The exceptions were the 1993 playoffs and 1999-2001 playoffs, when he did receive praise for being among his team's best players.
Here are a few telling details from his playoff career.
After Game 3 of the 1990 playoffs, a reporter began an interview with Turgeon by saying "You know you've let the team down."
After Game 2 of the 1991 playoffs, Buffalo coach Rick Dudley came out and said several players had quit playing, and someone had quit playing on Guy Carbonneau's game-winning goal with a minute to go. The writers all assumed he was talking about Turgeon, who let Carbonneau get behind him to score, and Dudley was forced to clarify he wasn't only talking about Turgeon.
After Game 2 of the 1996 playoffs, the Journal de Montreal published an editorial cartoon showing Pierre Turgeon boarding the team bus, while Vincent Damphousse and Jocelyn Thibault struggled to pull the bus with a rope. The NY Daily News wrote “'To you from failing hands we throw the torch. Be yours to hold it high.' The problem is, Turgeon has been playing like he wants to dump the torch into a corner, skate off to the right and let somebody else chase after it."
After the Blues lost in the 1998 playoffs, Neil MacRae asked "Did I miss something, or did Pierre Turgeon leave to play in Europe this month?" and Steve Simmons opined that no team with Turgeon as a #1 centre would ever win the Cup. In the summer of 1998, an article about projected salaries for Doug Weight and Rod Brind'Amour compared them favourably with Turgeon. "With centre Pierre Turgeon, a soft centre who's not on anybody's Top 50 NHLers list, just getting $4.6 million US..."
After Turgeon started playing better in the playoffs from 1999-2001, many articles referenced his previous soft play in contrast to his recent improved play.
Example 1: "The old Turgeon was highly skilled as a shooter, passer and scorer, but rarely rolled up his sleeves to do dirty work in the corners, behind the net or along the boards...He was the same guy who had a label which followed him from team to team saying he tended to disappear in big games and the playoffs."
Example 2:"And while Turgeon has always been a reliable point-producer--his skill level prompted Buffalo to grab him with the first choice in the 1987 entry draft--he also had a longstanding rap as a soft player. He was viewed as a wondrous talent who didn't care much for operating in traffic, who had little interest in competing for loose pucks or winning one-on-one skirmishes." Dave Molinari went on to compare the new Turgeon's two-way game to Peter Forsberg (!)
Turgeon didn't fit well in Dallas. At the age of 33, he was a healthy scratch in the 2003 playoffs, and was placed on waivers without being claimed in the summer of 2003.
How, specifically, did Turgeon play soft? I'll give a couple of examples.
In 1991 Stephen Brunt wrote that stars like Messier, Yzerman, and Gretzky set the tone for their team with their play from the beginning of the game, whether they scored or not. In the Buffalo-Montreal series, Montreal stars Richer and Courtnall were doing so, and Buffalo stars Turgeon and Hawerchuk were not. Instead, Turgeon and Hawerchuk passively rose and fell with their team.
In 1996, Jack Todd wrote that when Turgeon was flying high in the regular season, he would cross the blue line and drive the net, or drive wide and wheel around the net, looking for his wingers. During the playoffs, according to Todd, Turgeon "has tended to hit the blue line, flick a little wrist shot in the general direction of Mike Richter and then fade to the right, looking as he spins away from danger exactly like that other highly paid pacifist of the hockey wars - Alexandre Daigle. Yesterday, Turgeon wasn't even using the little wrist shot to inflate his shots-on-goal totals. He was simply dumping the puck in for someone else to chase. In New York, they chanted ``Tin Man!'' every time Turgeon touched the puck. At the Keg yesterday, they simply booed."
The exceptions were the 1993 playoffs and 1999-2001 playoffs, when he did receive praise for being among his team's best players.
Here are a few telling details from his playoff career.
After Game 3 of the 1990 playoffs, a reporter began an interview with Turgeon by saying "You know you've let the team down."
After Game 2 of the 1991 playoffs, Buffalo coach Rick Dudley came out and said several players had quit playing, and someone had quit playing on Guy Carbonneau's game-winning goal with a minute to go. The writers all assumed he was talking about Turgeon, who let Carbonneau get behind him to score, and Dudley was forced to clarify he wasn't only talking about Turgeon.
After Game 2 of the 1996 playoffs, the Journal de Montreal published an editorial cartoon showing Pierre Turgeon boarding the team bus, while Vincent Damphousse and Jocelyn Thibault struggled to pull the bus with a rope. The NY Daily News wrote “'To you from failing hands we throw the torch. Be yours to hold it high.' The problem is, Turgeon has been playing like he wants to dump the torch into a corner, skate off to the right and let somebody else chase after it."
After the Blues lost in the 1998 playoffs, Neil MacRae asked "Did I miss something, or did Pierre Turgeon leave to play in Europe this month?" and Steve Simmons opined that no team with Turgeon as a #1 centre would ever win the Cup. In the summer of 1998, an article about projected salaries for Doug Weight and Rod Brind'Amour compared them favourably with Turgeon. "With centre Pierre Turgeon, a soft centre who's not on anybody's Top 50 NHLers list, just getting $4.6 million US..."
After Turgeon started playing better in the playoffs from 1999-2001, many articles referenced his previous soft play in contrast to his recent improved play.
Example 1: "The old Turgeon was highly skilled as a shooter, passer and scorer, but rarely rolled up his sleeves to do dirty work in the corners, behind the net or along the boards...He was the same guy who had a label which followed him from team to team saying he tended to disappear in big games and the playoffs."
Example 2:"And while Turgeon has always been a reliable point-producer--his skill level prompted Buffalo to grab him with the first choice in the 1987 entry draft--he also had a longstanding rap as a soft player. He was viewed as a wondrous talent who didn't care much for operating in traffic, who had little interest in competing for loose pucks or winning one-on-one skirmishes." Dave Molinari went on to compare the new Turgeon's two-way game to Peter Forsberg (!)
Turgeon didn't fit well in Dallas. At the age of 33, he was a healthy scratch in the 2003 playoffs, and was placed on waivers without being claimed in the summer of 2003.
How, specifically, did Turgeon play soft? I'll give a couple of examples.
In 1991 Stephen Brunt wrote that stars like Messier, Yzerman, and Gretzky set the tone for their team with their play from the beginning of the game, whether they scored or not. In the Buffalo-Montreal series, Montreal stars Richer and Courtnall were doing so, and Buffalo stars Turgeon and Hawerchuk were not. Instead, Turgeon and Hawerchuk passively rose and fell with their team.
In 1996, Jack Todd wrote that when Turgeon was flying high in the regular season, he would cross the blue line and drive the net, or drive wide and wheel around the net, looking for his wingers. During the playoffs, according to Todd, Turgeon "has tended to hit the blue line, flick a little wrist shot in the general direction of Mike Richter and then fade to the right, looking as he spins away from danger exactly like that other highly paid pacifist of the hockey wars - Alexandre Daigle. Yesterday, Turgeon wasn't even using the little wrist shot to inflate his shots-on-goal totals. He was simply dumping the puck in for someone else to chase. In New York, they chanted ``Tin Man!'' every time Turgeon touched the puck. At the Keg yesterday, they simply booed."
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Frank Cannon PI
I'm a PI when I'm not busy baking spinach soufflé.
Thanks for posting these quotes.
As a fan, I hate reading the quote pertaining to Hawerchuk. I don't think he played like that in Winnipeg (for the most part), and certainly not with Buffalo in '93 or '94. I think his '90-'91 season was probably his worst one from '81-'94. His 1989-1990 season might look worse statistically, but the Jets were balancing out 4-lines, with his minutes being greatly reduced from previous seasons.
I'd be curious as to what Al Arbour thought of Turgeon in 1992-1993. I was quite big on him that year, and his run with the Islanders.
Mm. For example that time in 1990 he had 6 points in 6 games at 20 and was +2 as well. I would say that was at least okay against a strong opponent.
The Pale King
Go easy on those Mango Giapanes brother...
This is a great distinction to make between the two terms, and Malkin is the perfect player to use as an example.
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