Was Martin St Louis in the Wrong for the 2014 Sochi Situation

[WarriorofTime]

With over a decade of perspective, I'm curious how people feel about it today. Quick recap, Lightning GM Steve Yzerman was in charge of assembling Canada's roster for the 2014 Winter Olympics. Martin St. Louis was the reigning Art Ross winner from the 2012-13 lockout shortened season. When the initial roster was announced, St. Louis was not one of the forwards selected for the Olympic team. Feeling slighted, St. Louis asked for a trade and was eventually traded to the Rangers prior to the 2013-14 Trade Deadline.

From the Yzerman perspective, I think people generally accept that he had two different jobs and that he shouldn't play favoritism to the players that he managed. Whether you agree or disagree with the initial decision, it's just a fact that Canada has more great players than roster spots and they have to consider more than just someone's point totals and how they fit into more depth roles when selecting players.

From St. Louis's perspective though, there has to have been some feeling of this being a culmination. A lifetime of being overlooked and snubbed as being a little guy. That included being undrafted, going unsigned after a brilliant college career and having to sign in the IHL, fighting his way and earning a spot onto Calgary, but upon a management change being straight up bought out/released, and then managing to become a star player in Tampa Bay, well deserving of a Hall of Fame career. Even after all of that, to still be considered "not worthy" and from your own GM who sees you the most, at what point do you throw your hands up and say "What more can I even do to earn respect?"

I'm not sure how much interaction Yzerman/St. Louis had prior to that. You wonder to what extent St. Louis's frustrations came from Yzerman the player, about a decade older and in many ways the "All-Canadian" Forward and a representation of an "old guard" that didn't believe in St. Louis throughout his hockey journey. While my first instinct is "nothing external like Olympics should effect how you feel about your NHL situation", I can't help but feel for St. Louis and what might have been running through his head.

As it turned out, St. Louis did end up going to the Olympics that year as an injury replacement for his teammate, Steven Stamkos, and did add an Olympic Gold Medal to his trophy case.

 

[Beau Knows]

Yzerman was in the right, in that he put his Tampa Bay biases aside to put together what he thought was the best team.

But I think he was wrong and that St. Louis should have made the team. I'd certainly have rather had him in there over Kunitz.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Both St. Louis and Yzerman were in the right.

St. Louis was the oldest player on team Canada by 4 years. There had been the perception (particularly in 2006) of using too many old players because of who they were 5 years ago. St. Louis may have led in points in 2013, but he wasn't the dynamic player he was in 2004 or 2006 or even 2013.

I understand why he felt slighted though.

 

[Moose Head]

Never really understood the omission. Canada has been Center heavy for the longest time and I really can’t understand not picking a natural winger coming off an Art Ross, the 2nd of his career. Since Guy Lafleur, Canada never had a winger winning Art Ross’ on multiple occasions. Just don’t think having an elite scoring winger and giving the job to a center playing out of position is the best decision when putting together a team.

 

[bobholly39]

This one is tricky honestly.

You could say both were in the right and/or both were in the wrong. It's close.

You kind of would like to see MSL be the bigger person and not react emotionally and ask for a trade - but he's also human, so I get why he did. Also - who knows if there weren't other factors/issues in Tampa, and this was just the cherry on top, as opposed to the main/only reason that caused him to ask for a trade.

As for Yzerman - I think MSL should have made the team. It's probably better for Canada that Yzerman was unbiased in his selections - but I think MSL had a strong enough argument to make the team, it probably didn't even have to come to that.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

St Louis not being selected is glaring snub, and he was right to tell his own GM to stick it for snubbing him, especially considering headscratchers like selecting Crosby's little buddy (Kunitz). Leading up to 2014 he had 99 pts (2nd in the league) and a 3rd place Hart finish, then a down year with 74 in 77, then comes back and wins the Ross with 60 in 48.

You'd be hard pressed to pick a better Canadian winger at that time

 

[The Macho King]

So... I'm pretty close to this one.

The fact is - I think "in the right" and "justified" are two different questions. Team building is team building, and you don't always go with the 12 (or I think 14 in this instance) most talented players - of which MSL was definitely one of. As to whether he should have made any form of the construction of the roster? Depends. Probably should have as a natural wing but with Babcock as coach and the philosophy on size and two-way ability, you can kind of see the logic the other way.

Was he justified? Absolutely. His boss was the one crafting the team. Yzerman said that he removed himself from the decision making process and went with the consensus of the rest of the staff, but that still sucks. If nothing else it shows that he put a coaching staff in place that didn't bat an eye at making Yzerman's life really f***ing awkward. Your boss doesn't stand up for you? Who wouldn't get pissed off?

I've definitely come a long way from my initial reaction there. Expecting MSL to act "rational" in that situation as a 37ish year old who was just passed over for his last chance at a gold medal is in itself irrational. His boss didn't fight for him. Of course he wanted out.

 

[NordiquesForeva]

St. Louis didn't fit the template of the team that Yzerman (with Babcock's input) wanted to build on international ice. The 2024 forward group was built from the centre out (Crosby, Toews, Getzlaf, Tavares), with complementary wingers heavily biased towards size, speed, and 200-foot ability (Nash, Marleau, Carter, Benn, Perry, Sharp, Bergeron).

When Stamkos broke his leg, St. Louis replaced him. However, in the actual tournament, St. Louis was used sparingly. He barely played in the semi-final game vs. the U.S. and gold medal game vs. Sweden. The fact that players like Carter, Marleau, Perry and Benn played the most minutes amongst the wingers is telling.

Remember that Yzerman passed up both St. Louis AND Stamkos four years earlier and the point becomes clearer; Yzerman didn't see St. Louis having a role in the ideal forward group he wanted to construct at the Olympic level.

Personally, I thought he could have contributed more in 2014 that Kunitz, who performed fairly poorly (and was a drag on Crosby's production). Was St. Louis justified in his reaction? Absolutely. Was Yzerman justified in omitting him from the team? Yes.

 

[The Macho King]

Fun side note - this is also the season that Hedman was snubbed from Team Sweden. His coach stated that Hedman "was good at everything but not great at anything" and therefore went with such stalwarts as .... Henrik Tallinder.

 

[The Panther]

Is there any actual verbally recorded evidence that St.Louis wanted out of Tampa because of the Olympic (initial) non-selection, or is it just something that fans/media have always assumed? St.Louis presumably was smart enough to realize that these decisions are often made by committee. Even if Yzerman had to ultimately sign-off on it, it wasn't necessarily Yzerman who made that decision in the first place (he could have wanted St.Louis and then been outvoted by his peers for all we know).

St.Louis clearly should have been selected for the club in the first place. He made it in the end, so it's all good.

 

[The Macho King]

Is there any actual verbally recorded evidence that St.Louis wanted out of Tampa because of the Olympic (initial) non-selection, or is it just something that fans/media have always assumed? St.Louis presumably was smart enough to realize that these decisions are often made by committee. Even if Yzerman had to ultimately sign-off on it, it wasn't necessarily Yzerman who made that decision in the first place (he could have wanted St.Louis and then been outvoted by his peers for all we know).

St.Louis clearly should have been selected for the club in the first place. He made it in the end, so it's all good.

Here's the thing - they weren't his peers. They were his employees. The fact that he handed off the decision-making to them doesn't negate that it was ultimately his call. He chose the process.

 

[The Panther]

Here's the thing - they weren't his peers. They were his employees. The fact that he handed off the decision-making to them doesn't negate that it was ultimately his call. He chose the process.

Sure, of course. The buck stopped with Yzerman. But my point is that St.Louis -- if thinking clearly -- would surely be aware that Yzerman himself, on a personal note, might not be the person who axed him from the first line-up. I mean, it was Yzerman's first time as manager, right? I could definitely see a situation (conceivably, that is) where Yzerman might have been outvoted by his group and then deferred to the majority, whether he had to or not.

I'm just saying, if St.Louis did in fact 'demand' a trade because of an emotional reaction to that, it strikes me as odd.

 

[The Macho King]

Sure, of course. The buck stopped with Yzerman. But my point is that St.Louis -- if thinking clearly -- would surely be aware that Yzerman himself, on a personal note, might not be the person who axed him from the first line-up. I mean, it was Yzerman's first time as manager, right? I could definitely see a situation (conceivably, that is) where Yzerman might have been outvoted by his group and then deferred to the majority, whether he had to or not.

I'm just saying, if St.Louis did in fact 'demand' a trade because of an emotional reaction to that, it strikes me as odd.

Maybe you're just a robot because it seems pretty f***ing normal to me.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Fun side note - this is also the season that Hedman was snubbed from Team Sweden. His coach stated that Hedman "was good at everything but not great at anything" and therefore went with such stalwarts as .... Henrik Tallinder.

Yes, this was a widely mocked decision at the time that looks even sillier with hindsight. He hadn't played well as a very young player (aged 19 and 21) at a couple of World Championships. He had a breakout NHL season in 2013-14, but I guess with the midseason nature of the Olympics, it hadn't been enough time to salivate and make him the no brainer he should have been. If the tournament happened in September 2013, it's a bad bit somewhat understandable decision, but in the middle of a season he ended up 9th in Norris/All-Star Team Voting, it was malpractice.

 

[DRW895]

It seemed Mike Babcock just didn`t want him for national team

 

[JackSlater]

Yes St. Louis was in the wrong, in that he acted childishly. But it is his career and he was within his rights to do what he did. Throwing a tantrum because you didn't make team Canada however is clearly in poor taste. All that said, St. Louis reacting that way also indicates part of why he ended up being so successful.

St. Louis didn't fit the template of the team that Yzerman (with Babcock's input) wanted to build on international ice. The 2024 forward group was built from the centre out (Crosby, Toews, Getzlaf, Tavares), with complementary wingers heavily biased towards size, speed, and 200-foot ability (Nash, Marleau, Carter, Benn, Perry, Sharp, Bergeron).

When Stamkos broke his leg, St. Louis replaced him. However, in the actual tournament, St. Louis was used sparingly. He barely played in the semi-final game vs. the U.S. and gold medal game vs. Sweden. The fact that players like Carter, Marleau, Perry and Benn played the most minutes amongst the wingers is telling.

Remember that Yzerman passed up both St. Louis AND Stamkos four years earlier and the point becomes clearer; Yzerman didn't see St. Louis having a role in the ideal forward group he wanted to construct at the Olympic level.

Personally, I thought he could have contributed more in 2014 that Kunitz, who performed fairly poorly (and was a drag on Crosby's production). Was St. Louis justified in his reaction? Absolutely. Was Yzerman justified in omitting him from the team? Yes.

This is some of the important context. I have zero doubt that the coaching staff didn't want St. Louis, and his usage/play in the tournament indicate why. Canada was built around playmaking at centre with wingers who brought size/skating/goalscoring/defence to complement them. Also Kunitz in a frankly stupid pick. St. Louis was a poor fit for that team regardless of leading the NHL in scoring the previous year, as the goal was to win the tournament rather than to just add all of the highest scorers possible. What St. Louis brought to the team - elite playmaking from the wing - was not something that Canada was looking for or built around. Even if Canada did want someone of that archetype, in that particular season Giroux would have been the better pick over Kunitz or St. Louis since he could play wing, outscored St. Louis that year, and could defend better.

Another small piece of context that I imagine pissed St. Louis off is that team Canada was willing to bend over backwards to give Stamkos, his teammate, a chance to return from injury and play on that team. I think Hockey Canada even gave Stamkos a gold ring at the Hockey Canada award ceremony that summer. I assume it annoyed him that Canada was openly desperate for his teammate but rejected him.

It's also not as if Yzerman didn't know about snubs and being pissed off. Yzerman getting cut from the 1991 Canada Cup team is the biggest snub in international hockey history and he was openly pissed about it at the time.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Yes St. Louis was in the wrong, in that he acted childishly. But it is his career and he was within his rights to do what he did. Throwing a tantrum because you didn't make team Canada however is clearly in poor taste. All that said, St. Louis reacting that way also indicates part of why he ended up being so successful.



This is some of the important context. I have zero doubt that the coaching staff didn't want St. Louis, and his usage/play in the tournament indicate why. Canada was built around playmaking at centre with wingers who brought size/skating/goalscoring/defence to complement them. Also Kunitz in a frankly stupid pick. St. Louis was a poor fit for that team regardless of leading the NHL in scoring the previous year, as the goal was to win the tournament rather than to just add all of the highest scorers possible. What St. Louis brought to the team - elite playmaking from the wing - was not something that Canada was looking for or built around. Even if Canada did want someone of that archetype, in that particular season Giroux would have been the better pick over Kunitz or St. Louis since he could play wing, outscored St. Louis that year, and could defend better.

Another small piece of context that I imagine pissed St. Louis off is that team Canada was willing to bend over backwards to give Stamkos, his teammate, a chance to return from injury and play on that team. I think Hockey Canada even gave Stamkos a gold ring at the Hockey Canada award ceremony that summer. I assume it annoyed him that Canada was openly desperate for his teammate but rejected him.

It's also not as if Yzerman didn't know about snubs and being pissed off. Yzerman getting cut from the 1991 Canada Cup team is the biggest snub in international hockey history and he was openly pissed about it at the time.

That's still dumb reasoning though. It's in the same realm as if Russia left Kucherov off the team next year because they want 2 way wingers.

 

[JackSlater]

That's still dumb reasoning though. It's in the same realm as if Russia left Kucherov off the team next year because they want 2 way wingers.

It's not dumb reasoning at all, the team was extremely effective playing that way. Martin St. Louis circa 2014 was not a player worth changing your whole team's playstyle over. When Canada did throw him on the ice he was mostly ineffective. The goal is to win, not just throw all your highest scorers from the previous season on the team.

 

[GKJ]

I think it highlights the reason why active NHL GMs shouldn’t be national team GM’s.

 

[MS]

St. Louis at that point was an old, declining player a year away from retirement.

It was a correct decision and the player having the tantrum was 100% in the wrong.

Then he got added to the team anyway and didn’t score a point and basically proved the decision correct.

 

[WarriorofTime]

With the state of NHL defense being overwhelmingly Canada-heavy (I think if you were to take a poll of active NHL defensemen, 4 of the best 6 were Canadian, and that didn't even include the reigning Norris winner in Subban) and Price in prime form, they correctly decided they could just go all defense and dominate and picked their wingers accordingly.

There was a bit of weirdness like only beating Norway 3-1, winning 2-1 in OT against Finland, and then only winning 2-1 against Latvia in a Quarterfinal match, as far as lack of style points went, but they ultimately never surrendered more than a goal in a single game and shutout USA and Sweden back to back in Semis and Gold Medal Game. A 1-0 Semifinal game against a team they had a lot more talent than is probably on the "too close for comfort" side of things, considering shots 37-31 and USA did have three powerplays that game. But ultimately they won which is the goal. Tough to say if they made the correct decisions on roster assembly as we never know the counter-factual, and ultimately Canada is deep enough to make wrong decisions and still win. But we can say they definitely didn't definitively make the wrong decisions.

 

[MadLuke]

with complementary wingers heavily biased towards size, speed, and 200-foot ability (Nash, Marleau, Carter, Benn, Perry, Sharp, Bergeron).

This to me felt like the plan, line after line of too big and fast winger for the opponent defensive pairs and forward, wearing them down like a bulldozer (like first period against Russia in 2010...) and they won in total control... so hard to argue against, a bit like winning the cup after a trade, winning the gold kind of erase everything.... even if it is not scientifics and obviously you can make mistake and still win, do everything right and still loose.

in 2010 and 2014, I wondered if the Tampa Bay player performance of 2006 was not still in Yzerman mind...

In the summer of Stamkos-St-Louis had quite the world together for Canada if I do have my timeline wrong and he was about to win the Rocket, they went with the San Jose line instead and won....

 

[JaegerDice]

MSL was 100% completely in the wrong, and I say that as somebody that thought he should have made the team from the outset.

Nobody is entitled to make an Olympic team. Crosby was left off in 2006. Stamkos was left off in 2010. Neither had a temper tantrum over it even if they were privately disappointed or seething.

MSL’s whole ‘if Im not good enough for Team Canada, I must not be good enough for your NHL team, so trade me’ nonsense was so unbelievably childish.

And on top of everything, he did get onto the team when Stamkos was injured. And that STILL wasnt enough to assuage his fragile ego.

Yzerman was completely in the right, and frankly, if I had been his GM, Id have said ‘f*** you, you’re under contract, Im not trading you. Grow the f*** up and deal with disappointment like an adult.’

 

[MadLuke]

I feel it is more the other way around, something only an veteran with financial independence, confidence, entitlement, etc...would do, not a child in fear.

You just won the Art Ross (not knowing it would be the very last big moment), left-out of 2010 despite going 94-99 pts around that time and dominating during the world, when the team was announced only Perry had more points has Canadian right wing...

I am ready to go home if it is to be like this and having that kind of standard is not necessarily childish, as long has you are ready to leave with the consequence of your wants and voicing them obviously.

Crosby's little buddy (Kunitz).

When the team was announced, Kunitz was 5th in the nhl in points, leading in +/-:

https://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?r...&sort=points,goals,assists&page=0&pageSize=50

If we include the whole previous season and the start of this season (the last 93 games or so):

https://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?r...-07&gameType=2&sort=points&page=0&pageSize=50

Kunitz was 4 in the league in points, tie with St-Louis, leading the league with +53.

Yet he felt out of place the moment he was announced (a bit like brining Cheechoo in 2006 or Hyman this year), when he scored that nice single goal that tourney it must have been a nice feeling....

Brad Marchand was such a big upgrade on that line.

 

[Matty Sundin]

Kunitz was there because Canada in the past best on best tournaments has had problems with players find their chemistry with players they never played with. Only thing is with Stamkos originally being on the team, it also would have made sense having MSL on the team going by that logic.