Was Gretzky Polish, Ukrainian or Belarusian?

[majormajor]

He's 100% Canadian. He's never even lived in Europe. Neither did either of his parents. I know you meant to ask about ancestry but you need to be clear about that distinction.

Walter's parents were from the Russian Empire in a region with a Polish elite and a Ukrainian and Belarussian majority, where it was very common for people to speak both Ukrainian and Polish. I don't remember their personal details but it's entirely unsurprising that people would claim to have both sets of heritage at one point or another. Wayne's mom by the way has an entirely different ancestry so it is doubly silly to call Wayne Gretzky a Pole or a Ukrainian.

Personally I love talking about ancestry and history but c'mon people, you're not European unless you yourself are actually from there.

 

[majormajor]

Germanic languages are so closer than languages within many other language groups. The split between norse and saxon for example was pretty recent, about 1600-1800 years ago probably.

Slavic languages split at about the same time and retain more common features. I don't speak them so I don't know firsthand but they often understand each other even with languages 1000 miles apart, which is impossible with English and German. There is even an Interslavic language, which is a simplified dialect that almost all Slavic speakers can understand.

 

[mr figgles]

The area they’re from changed hands so many times that it’s hard to really narrow it down. Add to this the spelling of his name could have changed at some point. The only thing that’s really certain is that he’s a Slav.

 

[Ignatius]

I can speak to this as my namesake can be traced back to the ancient European city of Stridon and depending on who you speak to you can be claimed as being of Slovenian, Bulgarian, Croatian, etc descent because frankly no one knows exactly where said ancient city was located precisely. In addition to that I also have a mix of Romanian, Greek, German, Irish, Brit (Scottish & English) going for me as well.

As far as Gretzky goes, I would say that is a very Polish name but as far as the family goes it would not surprise me if they had claimed to be any one of Polish, Ukrainian, Belorussian, or even Russian in the past depending on who was asking so to avoid trouble from entities with ill intent towards another particular group. For example Polish folks are typically Roman Catholic while the others listed are followers of Eastern Orthodox Christianity or Jews living in the Pale of Settlement. There has been a lot of turmoil between those groups as well as with secular authorities for centuries on end in that area of the world.

 

[mattihp]

'Grecki/Gretzky' surname is quite popular in Belarus. In Ukraine too as 'Gritsko/Gritzko'.

For any fans of Everybody Hates Chris I hope Gritzky is ok too!

 

[who_me?]

Wonder what Crosby’s ancestors would be?? Irish??

he's half Jewish, as is Malkin. There were a slew of posts on here when he was drafted.

 

[Albatros]

Ahh, right. I am far from an expert so I appreciate your input. They are similar'ish though, right? I mean, I can catch similarities in Old English with Modern English even though they've gone through a number of changes over the years. Doesn't make them "the same", of course.

Yeah, there's a linguistic continuum across the border so that dialects shift gradually from Dutch to German or vice versa. For example in Limburg it would probably be [ʃtɑːl] more similar to German. But once one shifts to standardized language then the differences become more clear. If we compare it to RP English then Staal sits quite neatly between Steel and Stahl:

How to pronounce steel in English - Definition and synonyms of steel in English (en)
staal pronunciation: How to pronounce staal in Dutch, Afrikaans, Low German, Flemish (nl)
Stahl pronunciation: How to pronounce Stahl in German (de)

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Where you're born is what you are. He was born in Brantford, Ontario, Canada so he's Canadian.

Canadian isn't an ethnicity though

 

[Eisen]

Staal sounds more Norwegian for me. I think it's interesting that many Swedes have very German-sounding names.

Swedes, Norwegians, Danish and Germans share a lot of vocab.
Also, "aa" doesn't sound Norwegian to me, unless it once was å and pronounced accordingly. But who knows. I read that many names were butchered by the immigration officer when people arrived in tbe states.

 

[Eisen]

It would not sound natural pronounced like Stahl, for example there is no postalveolar fricative in Dutch (compare 'sit' and 'shit').

They used to, and I'm sure it exists in variations and loanwords.

 

[User9992]

he's half Jewish, as is Malkin. There were a slew of posts on here when he was drafted.

Not really. Malkin is russian surname. Yzerman is jewish, Adam Fox too.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

He's 100% Canadian. He's never even lived in Europe. Neither did either of his parents. I know you meant to ask about ancestry but you need to be clear about that distinction.

Walter's parents were from the Russian Empire in a region with a Polish elite and a Ukrainian and Belarussian majority, where it was very common for people to speak both Ukrainian and Polish. I don't remember their personal details but it's entirely unsurprising that people would claim to have both sets of heritage at one point or another. Wayne's mom by the way has an entirely different ancestry so it is doubly silly to call Wayne Gretzky a Pole or a Ukrainian.

Personally I love talking about ancestry and history but c'mon people, you're not European unless you yourself are actually from there.

Perhaps he identifies as Polish....or Somalian.

 

[mattihp]

Swedes, Norwegians, Danish and Germans share a lot of vocab.
Also, "aa" doesn't sound Norwegian to me, unless it once was å and pronounced accordingly. But who knows. I read that many names were butchered by the immigration oficer when people arrived in tbe states.

Norwegians are only recently using å instead of aa.

 

[Albatros]

They used to, and I'm sure it exists in variations and loanwords.

In loanwords sure, like 'schnitzel' or 'schwalbe' (see also Hölzenbein, Bernd) you can definitely pronounce with [ʃ] in Dutch.

 

[Eisen]

Norwegians are only recently using å instead of aa.

About 100 years, iirc. There are still remnants of the "aa", but it's rare.

 

[Eisen]

In loanwords sure, like 'schnitzel' or 'schwalbe' (see also Hölzenbein, Bernd) you can definitely pronounce with [ʃ] in Dutch.

Or nederlandsch. Clear foul, by the way.

 

[Albatros]

Or nederlandsch.

I'd say [-nts] but that's like 19th century vocabulary.

 

[IranCondraAffair]

Even without the language argument, the ethnic origin argument, the origin argument for various grandparents, etc... Things also got complicated around the time the Gretzky family would have emigrated.

For the sake of argument, assuming we're just talking about his grandfather on his paternal side, and he was, indeed, born in Grodno, look at how many times it changed hands:

1. In 1892 when Gretzky's grandfather was born, Gordno was part of the Russian Empire.
2. In 1916-19 it was occupied by German Army on behalf of the German Empire.
3. In 1917, the Russian Democratic Federal Republic overthrows the Russian Empire. Lasts for about 5 months. They never actually held control of Grodno as far as I can tell, but they did claim it.
4. 1918? Russian Soviet Republic takes over for the Russian Democratic Federal Republic.
5. 1918. Both the Belarusian People's Republic and the Belarusian National Republic claim the area. Not really recognized governments.
6. 1918, Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Grodno theoretically became part of Lithuania but it is occupied by Germany. About 6 different countries/governments all claim the area during this period (Poland, Lithuania, Belarus Nationalists, Belarus Communists, Russian Communists, White Russians)
7. In 1919 Grodno gets turned over to Poland by the Germans and becomes part of Poland.
8. In 1920, the Soviet Union's Red Army invades Poland and occupied Grodno on behalf of Lithuanian Soviets
9. In 1921, Poland wins war, keeps Grodno.
10. In 1939, the Soviet Union invaded Poland and again took Grodno, this time on behalf of the Belarussian Soviet Socialist Republic.
11. 1941, Nazis had invaded, it was now in the General District Belarus within the Reichkommissariat Ostland.
12. 1944, Soviet Union takes it back and reclaims it for the Belarussian Soviet Socialist Republic.
13. 1991. Belarussian Soviet Socialist Republic collapses. Now it is part of the Republic of Belarus.

...and that's just one town.

 

[Eisen]

I'd say [-nts] but that's like 19th century vocabulary.

Yeah, that's what I meant with, they had it before. It's old.

 

[mattihp]

he's half Jewish, as is Malkin. There were a slew of posts on here when he was drafted.

Was there any source for Malkin other than a couple of historical people named Malgin/Malkin were jewish?

 

[hoglund]

Canadian isn't an ethnicity though

He's Canadian with Polish desent, I think that's what they said during the TSN tribute of Walter Gretzky after he passed away.

 

[Albatros]

Yeah, that's what I meant with, they had it before. It's old.

But most -ch spellings were dropped in the 1934 reform because they weren't pronounced like that anyway so it was deemed unnecessary to have them in the language. Nowadays you still have -isch spellings of adjectives remaining but it's also invariably pronounced as [-is]. Like for example 'Russisch' is pronounced as [ˈrʏ.sis] in Dutch but [ˈʁʊsɪʃ] in German, almost no shared phonemes at all despite identical spelling.

 

[Stive Morgan]

Growing up, I was always told Gretzky was of Ukrainian heritage, but I'm sure it's very diverse.

Wayne Gretzky and Alex Trebek were always the Ukrainian-Canadian role models.

 

[ZJuice]

I grew up under the impression his family comes from a line of wealthy Austrian land owners. Why would someone lie to me about that

wiki says wealthy land owners from Russia and that Gretzky would say his father is from Belarus and is not Russian. His mother was Ukrainian.

 

[Eisen]

But most -ch spellings were dropped in the 1934 reform because they weren't pronounced like that anyway so it was deemed unnecessary to have them in the language. Nowadays you still have -isch spellings of adjectives remaining but it's also invariably pronounced as [-is]. Like for example 'Russisch' is pronounced as [ˈrʏ.sis] in Dutch but [ˈʁʊsɪʃ] in German, almost no shared phonemes at all despite identical spelling.

Indeed, but on the other hand you have words like huisje, where it is not uncommon to pronounce it with an [ʃ]. Or sjaal. Or the famous nijntje.