Confirmed with Link: Walman and a 2nd Round Pick traded to SJ

SantosHalper

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I'd take Strome over Copp. Trochek probably wouldn't have signed with the Wings but Strome took one year $3.5M from the Caps, an easy contract to beat. You think he wouldn't have taken 2 x $4M? We'd have DBC-Strome-Kane line from the Blackhawks.

We all wanted Roy not Gus, and Stevie should have kept Sprong and Walman and fired Fester instead.
But did you consider that Strome had a chance to play with Ovechkin? Strome took smaller contract because he knew, if he succeeds he will get bigger contract afterwards.

But did Roy wanted to come here? Sprong hasn't done anything this season, not a loss and Walman had his off ice issues. Fester got fired but too late imo, if it would have happen earlier, this season could have been salvageable. So in that Fester-situation i give Yzerman a minus, that wasn't handled well.
 
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Gniwder

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But did you consider that Strome had a chance to play with Ovechkin? Strome took smaller contract because he knew, if he succeeds he will get bigger contract afterwards.

But did Roy wanted to come here? Sprong hasn't done anything this season, not a loss and Walman had his off ice issues. Fester got fired but too late imo, if it would have happen earlier, this season could have been salvageable. So in that Fester-situation i give Yzerman a minus, that wasn't handled well.

He was signed to be a fill in for Backstrom. At that time, the team still had Kuz, so Strome was initially signed to be 2C fill-in and 3C. Hence $3.5M one year. He wasn't signed to play with Ovie. They got lucky. A reverse Copp if you will.

Roy is from Michigan, played at Tech.

Coaching and linemates impact Sprong's output. Burger-Kasper-Sprong would have been a better 3rd line than what we're icing now. No reason why he wouldn't be able to duplicate last season's numbers with those 2 feeding him.
 

SantosHalper

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He was signed to be a fill in for Backstrom. At that time, the team still had Kuz, so Strome was initially signed to be 2C fill-in and 3C. Hence $3.5M one year. He wasn't signed to play with Ovie. They got lucky. A reverse Copp if you will.

Roy is from Michigan, played at Tech.

Coaching and linemates impact Sprong's output. Burger-Kasper-Sprong would have been a better 3rd line than what we're icing now. No reason why he wouldn't be able to duplicate last season's numbers with those 2 feeding him.
Still, in the same team, he was bound to get his chance with Ovy sooner or later. And Caps been a playoff team most parts of the last 10 years. I don't think there was a chance.

Roy is a local kid but was Yzerman interested giving him 6 years and 34 mil, when ASP will push him in 3rd pair in 3 years?

After last season Larkin called out players who werent committed enough during the final push. He didn't name any names but surely Sprong along with Walman fitted that bill. And Sprong had 6 teams in 8 seasons, quite a few coaches has seen him.
 

Gniwder

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Still, in the same team, he was bound to get his chance with Ovy sooner or later. And Caps been a playoff team most parts of the last 10 years. I don't think there was a chance.

Roy is a local kid but was Yzerman interested giving him 6 years and 34 mil, when ASP will push him in 3rd pair in 3 years?

After last season Larkin called out players who werent committed enough during the final push. He didn't name any names but surely Sprong along with Walman fitted that bill. And Sprong had 6 teams in 8 seasons, quite a few coaches has seen him.

I don't think they planned on Kuz falling apart. Backstrom's issues were well known by then. He may have anticipated playing with Ovie on PP2, but no more than that.

Worst case scenario with Roy is that you wind up with 2 righties on the 2nd pair, but Roy/ASP looks a lot better than Holl/Petry, lol.

Walman was playing injured last season. Explains a lot because his game dropped off, and he was the softest player on the ice.

Watch.... we're all gonna freak out this summer when Petry gets extended for a year at $2.5M and we see the same defensive lineup next season. I don't think Stevie acquires that second pair LHD we all want until Chiarot, Gus, and Holl's contracts expire.
 

SantosHalper

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He may have anticipated playing with Ovie on PP2, but no more than that.
In the words of Matti Nykänen "every chance is a possibility"
Worst case scenario with Roy is that you wind up with 2 righties on the 2nd pair, but Roy/ASP looks a lot better than Holl/Petry, lol.
Well, agreed but coaches who actually knows their shit wants 3 lefties and 3 righties.
Watch.... we're all gonna freak out this summer when Petry gets extended for a year at $2.5M and we see the same defensive lineup next season. I don't think Stevie acquires that second pair LHD we all want until Chiarot, Gus, and Holl's contracts expire.
Let's not get crazy :laugh:
 

HisNoodliness

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Well that would be Steve Yzerman.

Pro scouts doesn't get to decide what players the team acquires, thats GM's job. What pro scouts do, is that they watch the games, write a report and sent it to GM. After that i can see 3 different scenarios.

1. Yzerman says "nah, not interested"
2. Yzerman is interested and perhaps tries to make a trade but the other team wants something that Yzerman isn't willing give.
3. In the UFA markets Yzerman could say "nah, not interested" or he is interested and makes an offer but the player in question says "thanks but no thanks, im signing with the other team"

Blaming pro scouting for bad players is pointless, it's the GM who decides and GM sees every game his team play. And he sees these players play against his team, he knows exactly what he's getting into when he signs the likes of Copp, Chiarot and Compher's.

I've been a pretty loud voice in the "I'm concerned about our pro scouting" crowd. I look at his time in Tampa, and he just hasn't had the same success here for building our defense. At first when Tampa was rebuilding, Yzerman was asking a young Hedman to carry the likes of Marc Andre Bergeron and Eric Brewer which he did somewhat effectively (sound familiar?)

But in Tampa, when he chose to turn the corner, he added Stralman to be a proper partner for Hedman and then built an incredible defense. Yzerman built the whole Tampa defense from scratch besides Hedman. That was the only Tampa draft pick on that defense. He brought in Sergachev, McDonagh, Cernak, and Stralman. He found a solid rotation of effective support guys. Were there some misses along the way? Yep. And Cernak was scouted as an amateur though they didn't draft him. Overall though his management of the defense in Tampa, built largely on pro-scouting, was great. He assembled that cup winning defense.

Ghost was a solid signing. Walman was a solid trade acquisition. The rest of his moves on defense here have been misses-including then getting rid of Walman, his biggest hit. Can we blame some of them on being stop gaps rather than real targets? Yep. Are we clearly taking a more draft heavy approach to this defense? Yep. Do I think some of his players would look better if the team as a whole was better? Yep.

Even when I afford Yzerman every excuse, the defense he's built is inexcusable. It speaks to a deep problem with our process and I'm worried about what happens when we need a 2nd LD to play babysitter for ASP. We can't afford to keep getting these choices wrong. So maybe you're right, and Yzerman is chiefly responsible. Then we need some pro scouts that can challenge his vision. The loose cannon is the only one that hits its mark when the ship is off course. We either have pro scouts making bad recommendations or failing to convince Yzerman to follow their good ones. Either way, they've failed at their job.

I'd love to hold Yzerman accountable but in most ways, he's an excellent GM. His amateur scouting and development has been great. Any fears I had about the second round onward are slowly being mitigated by the performances of guys like Buchelnikov. The first round has been great. He gets good value on re-signing his important players. Those two factors are probably the most important for an NHL GM. Add in that he usually wins his trades and we'd be crazy to fire Yzerman over some bad UFA signings and a dumb trade. Thus you address that issue another way, with a few pro scouts that can tell the difference between Jakub Kindl and Anton Stralman or Ben Chiarot and Ryan McDonagh.
 
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SantosHalper

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Either way, they've failed at their job.
Good text but still i don't understand copied part. If the captain makes the mistake, i don't know why the foot soldier takes the blame? But like i've been saying, we don't know what is going on in scout meetings and we don't what those reports say. Our scouts can be good or bad, there is no way of knowing since Yzerman makes the calls. It takes two to tango as well in trades and in the UFA markets.
 

HisNoodliness

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Good text but still i don't understand copied part. If the captain makes the mistake, i don't know why the foot soldier takes the blame? But like i've been saying, we don't know what is going on in scout meetings and we don't what those reports say. Our scouts can be good or bad, there is no way of knowing since Yzerman makes the calls. It takes two to tango as well in trades and in the UFA markets.
Here's the scenarios:
A. Yzerman has chosen well, but his staff made bad recommendations that he listened to. In this scenario, I'd like new pro scouts because they made bad recommendations.

B. Yzerman has chosen poorly and his staff have backed up his bad ideas with bad recommendations. In this scenario, I'd like new pro scouts because they're supporting Yzerman's bad decisions.

C. Yzerman has chosen poorly, the pro scouts have made made good recommendations but he ignored them. In this scenario, I'd like new pro scouts because Yzerman is apparently bad at selecting UFA defenseman and we need someone that can talk him out of his poor instincts.

The only other thing we could do to fix any of the above scenarios is fire Yzerman, but I don't want to do that because I think he does a good job otherwise. And we've seen him do a great job at this exact task when working with a different staff. It's not about blame. It's not about being punitive. It's about fixing a problem.
 

SantosHalper

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A. Yzerman has chosen well, but his staff made bad recommendations that he listened to. In this scenario, I'd like new pro scouts because they made bad recommendations.

B. Yzerman has chosen poorly and his staff have backed up his bad ideas with bad recommendations. In this scenario, I'd like new pro scouts because they're supporting Yzerman's bad decisions.

C. Yzerman has chosen poorly, the pro scouts have made made good recommendations but he ignored them. In this scenario, I'd like new pro scouts because Yzerman is apparently bad at selecting UFA defenseman and we need someone that can talk him out of his poor instincts.
A: If Yzerman is listening them and liking what he's hearing, why would he fire them

B & C: What exactly they would have to do then? Grab Yzerman by the throat? Here discuss about players and we could argue for weeks and still we wouldn't change our own opinions.
 

HisNoodliness

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A: If Yzerman is listening them and liking what he's hearing, why would he fire them

B & C: What exactly they would have to do then? Grab Yzerman by the throat? Here discuss about players and we could argue for weeks and still we wouldn't change our own opinions.
A: He can recognize that he and his scouts have done a bad job and choose to bring in someone with a different perspective.

B and C: people can be convinced of things without force. They could have a conversation. If they're an effective pro scout, they should be able to formulate effective arguments on why they are making a particular recommendation. Yzerman has a million responsibilities. It's the job of the pro scouts to help him scout professional players.

If people aren't convinced of things on here, it's because we 1 are bad at forming effective arguments, 2 don't respect each other's opinions and 3 are usually more invested in being right in our fun little internet argument than we are in actually identifying the better hockey players. There are some posters for whom this is not true. They convince me of things all the time. If Frk It tells me that I judged Reschny too harshly, I decide that I should give him a second look.

If Yzerman's scouting staff is suffering from the HFBoards problems above making it impossible to have effect discussion on UFA/trade targets, that sounds like we need new scouts!
 

SantosHalper

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A: He can recognize that he and his scouts have done a bad job and choose to bring in someone with a different perspective
Or carry the responsibility on the decisions he himself instead of blaming others. And give scout more guidelines what to look for if it's necessary but i doubt that.
B and C: people can be convinced of things without force. They could have a conversation. If they're an effective pro scout, they should be able to formulate effective arguments on why they are making a particular recommendation.
You can try to sell someone from the bottom of your heart but if the other party ain't interested what can you do.
 

HisNoodliness

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Or carry the responsibility on the decisions he himself instead of blaming others. And give scout more guidelines what to look for if it's necessary but i doubt that.
It's not about blame or responsibility. I don't care about that. I care about making the right choice next time. I don't trust Yzerman and our current staff to do that. We've seen enough examples to know that, as a group, they fail. It's been an extended streak of consistent failure. We need a real change in our pro scouting. New guidelines are insufficient.

We can do nothing and hope that Yzerman flips a "target good players" switch in his brain, we can fire Yzerman, or we can change our pro scouts. Personally I like the last option. It's not about blaming anyone. It's about recognizing that we have a broken system in place and need to make changes.

You can try to sell someone from the bottom of your heart but if the other party ain't interested what can you do.
Case in point I suppose.
 

SantosHalper

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It's not about blame or responsibility. I don't care about that. I care about making the right choice next time. I don't trust Yzerman and our current staff to do that. We've seen enough examples to know that, as a group, they fail. It's been an extended streak of consistent failure. We need a real change in our pro scouting. New guidelines are insufficient.

We can do nothing and hope that Yzerman flips a "target good players" switch in his brain, we can fire Yzerman, or we can change our pro scouts. Personally I like the last option. It's not about blaming anyone. It's about recognizing that we have a broken system in place and need to make changes.
It sure does look like blaming, Yzerman made the decisions and they turn out to be bad decisions and fires his pro scouting department because of it. What kind of leadership is that? Definitely not carrying his responsibility. But so far Yzerman has signed plugs and he hasn't made McDonagh-esq trades, so nothing has really happened yet. Other than hiring a bad coach and thats on Yzerman. But not an fireable offense on anyone and talking about the next choice being right, McLellan looks like one.

Yzerman could target all the good players but if they say no or the other GM says no, that pretty closes that case.
 

norrisnick

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It sure does look like blaming, Yzerman made the decisions and they turn out to be bad decisions and fires his pro scouting department because of it. What kind of leadership is that? Definitely not carrying his responsibility. But so far Yzerman has signed plugs and he hasn't made McDonagh-esq trades, so nothing has really happened yet. Other than hiring a bad coach and thats on Yzerman. But not an fireable offense on anyone and talking about the next choice being right, McLellan looks like one.

Yzerman could target all the good players but if they say no or the other GM says no, that pretty closes that case.
What's the job of a pro-scout?
 

SantosHalper

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So... pro-scouts give the GM the information with which said GM makes the decisions, correct?

If GMs operate on their own without the information from the pro-scouts, why do the pro-scouts even exist?
Correct.

I suppose that their biggest focus is on players on small minutes and AHL players. Someone who's TOI is around 10 min, that doesn't give GM much info. Then the pro scout steps in and watches many games, creating a bigger sample size and a writes report. Then GM has more info than just a 10 min performance in 1 game from that individual. i'd say that Forsling is a prime example of a good pro scouting. And i guess they go watch whomever GM tells them to watch.

And every summer teams sign "Snively/Czarnik"-types and i don't know much time GMs has to watch AHL but probably not that much, so i would imagine that Snively got signed because what the pro scouting report said about him. And naturally he accepted the offer.

European pro scouts do the same in Europe. And i would believe that pro scouts in NA has their own "region" like amateur scouts. Wings have 5 pro scouts in NA, i think 1 scout in NHL western conference, 1 in AHL west and 1 in NHL east, 1 AHL in east. Im not 100% sure on that but makes sense.

Back in summer 2021 i met Matti Virmanen, Oilers european scout and i asked what exactly are you doing. He said he watches around 200 games a year, all over Europe. Writes a report and sends it to Edmonton and that they have scout meetings with the GM. But i don't remember how often they held those.
 

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