Player Discussion Vincent Desharnais

[alanschu]

FYI the rule is that front a front loaded deal the variance from year to year cannot be more than 25% of the first year and the lowest year cannot be any less than 50% of the highest year. So this contract is not legal as stated. The idea is a good one though.

I knew there was some type of 50% but couldn't remember exactly how it worked haha.

But, interesting type of opportunity for him.

 

[joestevens29]

Yes, it will be interesting. Financially, I think Vinnie's contract value becomes more clear as these playoffs go on and the competition level, pressure, and style of game evolves with differing opponents. This will help to calibrate his pricing as a UFA.

Woodcroft gave him an NHL opportunity that Desharnais seized and has continued to build upon. But can't forget he always fought for his contracts with initial minor league deals and hard playing miles through ECHL and AHL competition. Cap Friendly shows him with career earning of $513,000 so this is now about a peak career player with distinguishing characteristics and attributes that include elite size, hard grinding style, right-handedness, a growing and maturing game at NHL level with PK and game close-out deployment. He's going to get paid and common sense suggests at his age that term length will have to be longer. The range I think could be $2 million to $2.5 but maybe $1.8 as you suggest.

Desharnais bet on himself for over a decade and countless leagues and teams going back to minor midget to be in this position of now controlling his financial destiny. Looks as well like there's more latent potential as his game calms with experience.

Now maybe a contract changes him, but this is a guy that spent countless hours working with coaches at all levels as well.

People like to say Broberg was treating unfairly, but Vinny was a guy staying late after practice all the time asking the coaches what he can do better and how to do that.

The way the guy talked the day we signed him to the NHL contract was unreal. I've never heard a guy be so thankful for being given an opportunity to play in the AHL let alone how he went on to talk about what that NHL contract meant.

Need those character guys that are always willing to get better and put the effort in.

Just having a guy like that on your roster really goes a long way for other prospects too. He can show guys that you can be taken in your third draft year in the 7th round and still find a way to the NHL if you are willing to work.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Now maybe a contract changes him, but this is a guy that spent countless hours working with coaches at all levels as well.

People like to say Broberg was treating unfairly, but Vinny was a guy staying late after practice all the time asking the coaches what he can do better and how to do that.

The way the guy talked the day we signed him to the NHL contract was unreal. I've never heard a guy be so thankful for being given an opportunity to play in the AHL let alone how he went on to talk about what that NHL contract meant.

Need those character guys that are always willing to get better and put the effort in.

Just having a guy like that on your roster really goes a long way for other prospects too. He can show guys that you can be taken in your third draft year in the 7th round and still find a way to the NHL if you are willing to work.

Agree on all your points. Most especially a story of internal development success that can show the long road path, work effort, commitment and belief can payoff.

Only quibble is I think the Desharnais v. Broberg is a false narrative. Broberg's path was shifted by critical organizational events including Klefbom career ending injury and shitty NHL veteran blueline depth requiring upgrades with Kulak, Keith and Ekholm which pushed Broberg down and then dumbly into a off shooting side hope to compete at RD (instead of moving a veteran guy like Kulak who had done at NHL level). Completely fubar development for their pedigree defense prospect, not, a matter of fake claims of entitlement or work effort failings. Let's just credit Desharnais for doing what he needed to earn a job and confidence.

With Desharnais he needs to stick to his very simple, structured and hard game. There were a couple of subtle shots when there was a brief slip down the stretch when he was getting caught being too fancy in his play leading to overhanding, turnovers, and poor aggressive pinch/reads but he's been really solid. Especially no bad penalties in the playoffs.

 

[bucks_oil]

Yes, it will be interesting. Financially, I think Vinnie's contract value becomes more clear as these playoffs go on and the competition level, pressure, and style of game evolves with differing opponents. This will help to calibrate his pricing as a UFA.

Woodcroft gave him an NHL opportunity that Desharnais seized and has continued to build upon. But can't forget he always fought for his contracts with initial minor league deals and hard playing miles through ECHL and AHL competition. Cap Friendly shows him with career earning of $513,000 so this is now about a peak career player with distinguishing characteristics and attributes that include elite size, hard grinding style, right-handedness, a growing and maturing game at NHL level with PK and game close-out deployment. He's going to get paid and common sense suggests at his age that term length will have to be longer. The range I think could be $2 million to $2.5 but maybe $1.8 as you suggest.

Desharnais bet on himself for over a decade and countless leagues and teams going back to minor midget to be in this position of now controlling his financial destiny. Looks as well like there's more latent potential as his game calms with experience.

It's a great story... if you have the Athletic, try to get a copy of the article on him from about a week ago. Nice read.

Did you know: the post-game high five with Skinner started when they were both in the ECHL? That's pretty cool.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

It's a great story... if you have the Athletic, try to get a copy of the article on him from about a week ago. Nice read.

Did you know: the post-game high five with Skinner started when they were both in the ECHL? That's pretty cool.

Don't have the Athletic but will try to find it. I did know about their ritual starting in the ECHL - a somewhat common starting pro starting point for goaltenders given the fewer spots of the position. But for a d-man or positional guys, that's a long road to the NHL if you're playing in "Double A" so to speak. High character, grit, determination, and resilience mental attributes have to abound to stick with long journey to make, stick and succeed at the apex NHL level of competition. Vinnie's a great story.

 

[tiger_80]

Sounds like Nurse with extra steps.

Nurse is actually a very good skater for a big guy. He'd be a bottom pairing player like Desharnais if he was not.

 

[Stoneman89]

Vinny has been a solid beast so far. Has really stepped up his game for the playoffs, like quite a few others.

 

[ManofSteel55]

FYI the rule is that front a front loaded deal the variance from year to year cannot be more than 25% of the first year and the lowest year cannot be any less than 50% of the highest year. So this contract is not legal as stated. The idea is a good one though.

So I understand the language correctly here, in theory, if we did an 8 year deal, could we do this, with the drop after year one being 25% of the total, and another 25% drop after year 3, bringing the cap hit to 50% of the first year?

3.5M > 2.625 > 1.75 > 1.75 > 1.75 > 1.75 > 1.75 > 1.75

The total value would be 16.625M, and the cap hit would be just under 2.1M.

Just want to make sure my thinking is correct on this one. I don't expect he would sign that deal until he knows if anyone is going to give him "The Gudbranson".

Nurse is actually a very good skater for a big guy. He'd be a bottom pairing player like Desharnais if he was not.

Nurse might not be in the NHL if he wasn't so athletic. That's the strongest part of his game really.

 

[AM]

I really can't see the guy taking less than 2mil on any kind of deal. Probably should fire his agent if he does.

Unless of course he wants to be on a contending team instead of the largest pay cheque.

 

[AM]

Probably mentioned here is that what we do with Nurse is likely impacted by what we have to do to keep Bouchard. Booch can command huge coin being a rare PPG D with a huge shot and he's still young.

Nurse I've liked through the years but Booch is a gamechanger talent and one that a team cannot move on from. He's a big part of this club and Nurse stopped being that since Ekholm was here.

We likely have to shop Nurse in order to keep Bouchard. I would go longterm with Booch. He's can't miss.

How many nhl defenders would like his spot on the power play?

 

[tiger_80]

How many nhl defenders would like his spot on the power play?s

But he's much better than most in that role. He's putting up offensive numbers at the level of prime Karlsson. For the comparison, Barrie who's widely regarded as a very strong PP specialist put up 40-50 points on the Oilers. Which is good but Bouchard is on the other evel offensively and much better defensively than Barrie.

 

[Fourier]

So I understand the language correctly here, in theory, if we did an 8 year deal, could we do this, with the drop after year one being 25% of the total, and another 25% drop after year 3, bringing the cap hit to 50% of the first year?

3.5M > 2.625 > 1.75 > 1.75 > 1.75 > 1.75 > 1.75 > 1.75

The total value would be 16.625M, and the cap hit would be just under 2.1M.

Just want to make sure my thinking is correct on this one. I don't expect he would sign that deal until he knows if anyone is going to give him "The Gudbranson".


Nurse might not be in the NHL if he wasn't so athletic. That's the strongest part of his game really.

That deal is valid under the CBA.

Gudbranson may not be a good comparable. He was a 3rd overall pick who played 72 games in the NHL in his draft plus 1 year. Despite his play that matters in terms of teams willingness to pay him. It was probably 2021-22 deal at $1.95M that is more indicative of how teams valued his play over his draft potential.

 

[AM]

But he's much better than most in that role. He's putting up offensive numbers at the level of prime Karlsson. For the comparison, Barrie who's widely regarded as a very strong PP specialist put up 40-50 points on the Oilers. Which is good but Bouchard is on the other evel offensively and much better defensively than Barrie.

Just saying that the oilers have a valuable spot that players will want to slot into. Who doesn’t want to play on the best power play in history? Keep in mind if Bouchard wasn’t developed nurse might have that role and 40 more points a year would quiet a lot of grousing.

 

[tiger_80]

Just saying that the oilers have a valuable spot that players will want to slot into. Who doesn’t want to play on the best power play in history? Keep in mind if Bouchard wasn’t developed nurse might have that role and 40 more points a year would quiet a lot of grousing.

Nurse is not good on the PP. He'd have more points, but probably closer to 40 than to 60.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

So I understand the language correctly here, in theory, if we did an 8 year deal, could we do this, with the drop after year one being 25% of the total, and another 25% drop after year 3, bringing the cap hit to 50% of the first year?

3.5M > 2.625 > 1.75 > 1.75 > 1.75 > 1.75 > 1.75 > 1.75

The total value would be 16.625M, and the cap hit would be just under 2.1M.

Just want to make sure my thinking is correct on this one. I don't expect he would sign that deal until he knows if anyone is going to give him "The Gudbranson".


Nurse might not be in the NHL if he wasn't so athletic. That's the strongest part of his game really.

He's not getting Gudbranson money. It's not a realistic comparable. Seeler is probably the closest career track wise and leveraging a shorter sample, 296 NHL games, into a $2.7 million aav on $10.8 million deal over 4 years. Sealer's deal aav is likely the extreme high ceiling of what Desharnais might get.

Gudbranson was a high pedigree draft pick and established leader and longtime NHLer. He's played as a top four defenseman across several teams. Columbus was a unique situation with cap space and need to import a high character, hard game veteran to help foster a culture change in a losing franchise. Vinnie is going to get paid but won't be overpaid with largely unknown upside on a small 114 NHL game sample size.

 

[ManofSteel55]

He's not getting Gudbranson money. It's not a realistic comparable. Seeler is probably the closest career track wise and leveraging a shorter sample, 296 NHL games, into a $2.7 million aav on $10.8 million deal over 4 years. Sealer's deal aav is likely the extreme high ceiling of what Desharnais might get.

Gudbranson was a high pedigree draft pick and established leader and longtime NHLer. He's played as a top four defenseman across several teams. Columbus was a unique situation with cap space and need to import a high character, hard game veteran to help foster a culture change in a losing franchise. Vinnie is going to get paid but won't be overpaid with largely unknown upside on a small 114 NHL game sample size.

Everyone said Gudbranson woudn't get Gudbranson money, and then he did. Gudbranson was a long time NHL'er, but he also had been a healthy scratch a number of times, and was considered a negative value asset for a long time as well. His draft year was a decade before he signed that deal, so it doesn't really play into that contract either. He had one bounce back season, after 3 or 4 bad ones where he was at best a bottom pairing defenseman, before he became a UFA.

There's always a dumb and desperate GM ready to throw money at the big guy he thinks is a game changing shut down defenseman. I wouldn't say he is worth Gudbranson money, but it wouldn't be the first time a GM signed a big, physical defenseman to too much money. Gudbranson being the perfect example of this.

VD and Gudbranson might not be a reasonable contract comparable, but Gudbranson isn't exactly on a reasonable contract for what he brings, and that's my point. We don't only have to compete with other GM's who want VD for what he is - we possibly have to compete with another GM who is desperate for a 2nd pair shut down RD and is so desperate that he overpays significantly.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Nurse is not good on the PP. He'd have more points, but probably closer to 40 than to 60.

Nurse was a 40 point defenseman a year ago with no powerplay time. It isn't unrealistic to think that he could hit 50 on the powerplay if he was on the top unit. He would certainly get some assists on the 60ish powerplay goals we would have scored with him out there. He doesn't have the shot that Bouchard does though, so the overall effectiveness of the PP would probably decline a bit, as it takes our point shot scoring threat nearly out of the equation.

 

[VainGretzky]

A perfect example of a great shutdown man, who blocks shots clears out the crease heavy hits on forwards does not make risky plays, Kanes goal last game would not have happened without the play in the defensive zone by Desharnais

 

[LTIR]

Desharnais is a good guy. I just hope he doesn't price himself out of the team and the right side of fans.

Don't think he would be a fan fav for too long if he ends up making more than what Kulak is making right now.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Everyone said Gudbranson woudn't get Gudbranson money, and then he did. Gudbranson was a long time NHL'er, but he also had been a healthy scratch a number of times, and was considered a negative value asset for a long time as well. His draft year was a decade before he signed that deal, so it doesn't really play into that contract either. He had one bounce back season, after 3 or 4 bad ones where he was at best a bottom pairing defenseman, before he became a UFA.

There's always a dumb and desperate GM ready to throw money at the big guy he thinks is a game changing shut down defenseman. I wouldn't say he is worth Gudbranson money, but it wouldn't be the first time a GM signed a big, physical defenseman to too much money. Gudbranson being the perfect example of this.

VD and Gudbranson might not be a reasonable contract comparable, but Gudbranson isn't exactly on a reasonable contract for what he brings, and that's my point. We don't only have to compete with other GM's who want VD for what he is - we possibly have to compete with another GM who is desperate for a 2nd pair shut down RD and is so desperate that he overpays significantly.

It's a false equivalency.

There will be good quality, established RD available with longer track runs and diverse skill sets available to choose from. Desharnais is small sample player who GM's won't gamble on to overpay when more certainly and broader skill set options are on market. He's establishing himself as a dependable third pair d-man with penalty killing abilities. Projecting and paying him as a second pair defensemen like a far more established Gudbranson is not realistic. An older Schenn who rebuilt his value for a 3 year, $2,750,000 aav is aligned with deep experienced and leadership attributes.

Betting big money and term on a 114 game NHL sample isn't going to happen. He's not a second pair shutdown defenseman. You don't bet a $4 million aav over term to hope to find that player. There's no one that dumb or desperate.

The Seeler contract gives a sense of the absolute ceiling for late bloomer, support playing third pairing defense. And he's played 182 NHL games (more than double) more than Desharnais for the Flyers to gulp down on that deal.

EDIT: Pointing out an extreme outlier contract for a team that fired its GM in-season for subpar work in trying to accelerate its rebuild via bad free agent signings and trades actually hurts your argument versus builds a case for it.

 

[dem]

I can't imagine paying Vinny a dollar more than 2 mil. And even that seems rich.

This talk of like 2.75+ over some stupid long contract is insane to me.

 

[McDNicks17]

I can't imagine paying Vinny a dollar more than 2 mil. And even that seems rich.

This talk of like 2.75+ over some stupid long contract is insane to me.

With the cap projected to raise significantly over the next few years, something over $2M is pretty reasonable.

Kind of have to look at it as % of the cap instead of flat dollar figures.

 

[The Nuge]

Everyone said Gudbranson woudn't get Gudbranson money, and then he did. Gudbranson was a long time NHL'er, but he also had been a healthy scratch a number of times, and was considered a negative value asset for a long time as well. His draft year was a decade before he signed that deal, so it doesn't really play into that contract either. He had one bounce back season, after 3 or 4 bad ones where he was at best a bottom pairing defenseman, before he became a UFA.

There's always a dumb and desperate GM ready to throw money at the big guy he thinks is a game changing shut down defenseman. I wouldn't say he is worth Gudbranson money, but it wouldn't be the first time a GM signed a big, physical defenseman to too much money. Gudbranson being the perfect example of this.

VD and Gudbranson might not be a reasonable contract comparable, but Gudbranson isn't exactly on a reasonable contract for what he brings, and that's my point. We don't only have to compete with other GM's who want VD for what he is - we possibly have to compete with another GM who is desperate for a 2nd pair shut down RD and is so desperate that he overpays significantly.

Heck, Gudbranson isn’t remotely worth Gudbranson money. He’s barely worth half of his contract. Thats why it would be better to “reward” Desharnais with an extension asap. As you say, there’s always that one GM… If he hits free agency, you just don’t know what’s going to happen.

I can't imagine paying Vinny a dollar more than 2 mil. And even that seems rich.

This talk of like 2.75+ over some stupid long contract is insane to me.

I don’t think anyone’s suggested 2.75+ long term. The long term talk is to try and keep him more like 1.5-2.0

With the cap projected to raise significantly over the next few years, something over $2M is pretty reasonable.

Kind of have to look at it as % of the cap instead of flat dollar figures.

Ya it’s hard to see 2 million looking like a boat anchor 4 years from now.

 

[Mr Positive]

Heck, Gudbranson isn’t remotely worth Gudbranson money. He’s barely worth half of his contract. Thats why it would be better to “reward” Desharnais with an extension asap. As you say, there’s always that one GM… If he hits free agency, you just don’t know what’s going to happen.



I don’t think anyone’s suggested 2.75+ long term. The long term talk is to try and keep him more like 1.5-2.0



Ya it’s hard to see 2 million looking like a boat anchor 4 years from now.

Guys like Gudbranson, Gudas, and yes Desharnais get big cash from bottom feeder teams. If he wants to be on a team with any chance of being good, he needs to get under 2 million aav, even if it isn't the Oilers.

I agree that getting ahead of things would be smart.

 

[Spawn]

Guys like Gudbranson, Gudas, and yes Desharnais get big cash from bottom feeder teams. If he wants to be on a team with any chance of being good, he needs to get under 2 million aav, even if it isn't the Oilers.

I agree that getting ahead of things would be smart.

I'm sure being on a good team will be important for Desharnais. But he also can't forget that he's going to be 28 to start next season and is likely only going to have a handful of high earning years in his career.

As much as it would suck to not be able to afford Desharnais, I hope he takes the biggest bank he can and sets him and his family up for as long as he can. Even if that means he's on some garbage team like Chicago.