[VIDEO] Mark Messier, The Anti-Canuck - A 20-Minute Look At His Catastrophic Time in Vancouver
- Thread starter CambieKev
- Start date
It had almost no significance at the time; it wasn't retired and it wasn't being used so Messier took it so he could continue using the number he had used his whole career. Simple unless, of course, you are looking for some reason to hate on the guy...
Trafalgar Sadge Law
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- Nov 8, 2007
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Imagine thinking the Linden trade was anything but the greatest move in Canucks history. You Canucks fans should be getting on your knees and thanking Messier for making that happen. Both Bertuzzi/McCabe were vastly superior players to Linden afterwards and it gave them the key assets to get the Sedins and Luongo, along with nearly a decade of high end play from Bertuzzi. What did the Canucks thing they were gonna get from a 36 year old anyway? 1990 Messier? The poor finish in 1999 also led to them getting the other Sedin so you can credit that to Messier too.
Mark Messier is BY FAR the best player to ever play for the Vancouver Canucks AINEC.
Mark Messier is BY FAR the best player to ever play for the Vancouver Canucks AINEC.
eviohh26
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Vancouver Canucks
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Petrus
Registered User
The image of Messier receiving the Stanley cup from Bettman in 1994 with the Rangers remains to this day the most iconic most memorable Stanley Cup moment for me.
Nothing can tarnish that for me.
Nothing can tarnish that for me.
TheDawnOfANewTage
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I think what a lot of posters are ignoring is messier seemingly didn’t give a shit, that’s what seems to irk ‘nucks fans. Like, you went all out for the ultimate leader, dat dood who did it for NY, and.. he’s just gonna collect a paycheck? That’s the impression I get at least, fair or not- fans dislike him because his attitude disappointed, the stats just a reflection of that
Bank Shot
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I can't believe he stole the number of The Canucks hero who was best remembered for cracking the skull of another player with a tomahawk swing.......
The guy would have been banned for life from today's NHL.
Bank Shot
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On September 21, 1969, during a typical hockey melee in an exhibition game in Ottawa between the Boston Bruins and the St. Louis Blues, Maki almost killed Green with a well-placed slash of his Sher-Wood hockey stick across Green’s skull. (In 1969, players did not wear helmets. They would not be required to do so until 1979 and, even then, that absolute rule would be phased in over time and made applicable only to rookies who joined the League.) As a result of the episode in Ottawa, Green experienced massive brain hemorrhaging.
The incident itself lasted only a few seconds and followed the pattern of escalation common in violent outbursts in sports. It began at the 13-minute mark of the first period when left-winger Maki shot the puck over the blue line into the Bruins end. Most fights and injuries occur in the corners of the rink behind the goal line, and this night would fit that model. Green played the puck with his skate while Maki headed for Green and hit him from behind. Green roughly pushed Maki away and down to the ice with his gloved left hand. That was sufficient for the referee, Ken Bodendistel, to raise his arm indicating a penalty would be called against Green as soon as Boston obtained control of the puck. This small, inconsequential contact then spiraled out of control.
From his knees, Maki speared Green in the genitals, perhaps the most egregious attack that can be committed on the ice and a clear violation of the unwritten code (and the written rules) of hockey. As Green turned away to skate towards the penalty box, he swung his stick and slashed Maki on the arm, once again knocking him to the ice. Maki’s immediate response would resound throughout the sports world and would focus the public’s attention on the relationship between the games, the violence and the criminal law.
Maki answered Green’s second assault by slashing at Green’s skull with his hockey stick. Green had turned his head away thinking that the fight was over. Maki slashed with the hardest part of the stick, at the bend where the shaft joins the blade. Green fell helplessly to the ice.
The left side of Green’s body was paralyzed immediately. The right side of his head had been crushed in. Pieces of skull mixed with pieces of his brain. He had been hit at the spot of the brain that controls speech, his left arm and his left leg. Green lost consciousness on the way to the Ottawa hospital, and, when he regained awareness, he immediately asked for a priest to administer the last rites.
The incident itself lasted only a few seconds and followed the pattern of escalation common in violent outbursts in sports. It began at the 13-minute mark of the first period when left-winger Maki shot the puck over the blue line into the Bruins end. Most fights and injuries occur in the corners of the rink behind the goal line, and this night would fit that model. Green played the puck with his skate while Maki headed for Green and hit him from behind. Green roughly pushed Maki away and down to the ice with his gloved left hand. That was sufficient for the referee, Ken Bodendistel, to raise his arm indicating a penalty would be called against Green as soon as Boston obtained control of the puck. This small, inconsequential contact then spiraled out of control.
From his knees, Maki speared Green in the genitals, perhaps the most egregious attack that can be committed on the ice and a clear violation of the unwritten code (and the written rules) of hockey. As Green turned away to skate towards the penalty box, he swung his stick and slashed Maki on the arm, once again knocking him to the ice. Maki’s immediate response would resound throughout the sports world and would focus the public’s attention on the relationship between the games, the violence and the criminal law.
Maki answered Green’s second assault by slashing at Green’s skull with his hockey stick. Green had turned his head away thinking that the fight was over. Maki slashed with the hardest part of the stick, at the bend where the shaft joins the blade. Green fell helplessly to the ice.
The left side of Green’s body was paralyzed immediately. The right side of his head had been crushed in. Pieces of skull mixed with pieces of his brain. He had been hit at the spot of the brain that controls speech, his left arm and his left leg. Green lost consciousness on the way to the Ottawa hospital, and, when he regained awareness, he immediately asked for a priest to administer the last rites.
Sure production wise what you are saying is true but he was egotistical and had a me first attitude that led to Canuck fan favorite Trevor Linden being driven out of town.
Ironically the trade was a positive for the Canucks bit the visceral feeling that many Canuck fans feel towards the Moose is justified and he earned it big time.
He was the face of the franchise and although ownership and Iron Mike share equal blame, the ego that Mark has diverts that negative attention to himself.
The Panther
Registered User
Advance Notice: I will not be posting further on this subject -- and I certainly won't be responding to posters who confront me -- because my experience on this forum is that any attempt at a rational discussion about Messier's time in Vancouver brings out the worst in posters (a small minority of Canuck fans) who feel it is their sworn duty to loudly denigrate anything to do with Messier in this particular time frame.
With that out of the way, I will now present some cold, hard reality for those who might have been around at that time or who aren't well-versed in the topic (because I wouldn't want them to believe a lot of the stuff posted so far in this thread):
Accusation #1: Messier's arrival destroyed the team
REALITY: The Canucks were already well-into a sharp decline before Messier arrived.
Before Messier:
94/95: 18-18-12 (2nd place)
95/96: 32-35-15 (3rd place)
96/97: 35-40-7 (4th place, missed playoffs)
With Messier:
97/98: 25-43-14 (7th place, missed playoffs)
98/99: 23-47-12 (4th place, missed playoffs)
99/00: 30-29-15-8 (3rd place, missed playoffs by four points)
In retrospect (and at the time, if anyone was looking at it rationally), it's obvious that the early-90s' Canucks team was falling apart from about 1995, and the free-agent signing attempts of Gretzky in '96 (Wayne was willing but Canucks' Stan McCammon, reporting to John McCaw, botched it), and Messier in '97 (successfuly), were desperate moves to prop-up a team in decline. Mess's arrival in autumn '97 coincided with the team's nadir circa 1997-98... whether he was there or not.
Accusation #2: Messier demanded Wayne Maki's retired #11
REALITY: #11 was NOT retired, and it was the Canucks management that told Messier he could wear #11 before he arrived in Vancouver, without consulting the Maki family
Like, duh! This is supposed to be Messier's fault?? An obscure player, who died when Mess was 8 years old (in the middle of violent stick-fight), is supposed to be on a free-agent's mind in 1997 as he's looking for a multi-million dollar deal? How is a brand-new free-agent signing supposed to have "respect for (Canucks') history"? Isn't that managements' job? Is Messier supposed to come into the dressing room, see his #11 practice jersey, and immediately say: "Attention! After my careful off-season study of Canucks' history, I -- on my first day here -- refuse to wear the jersey management has given me because I know a lot about an obscure player!" (cue standing ovation from dressing room)
From The Vancouver Sun, October 18th 1997:
No. 11 was re-issued to new Canuck captain Mark Messier this season after 23 years out of circulation. Beverly Maki was not contacted before the Messier signing July 28 and was shocked to discover her husband's number had been re-issued watching the news conference on television. She doesn't object to Messier wearing No. 11 but would like the number retired again following Messier's career.
Around this time (just after?), Beverly Maki said: "We've offered to let Mark wear it for the three years he plays here and then we want them to retire the number again."
In fact, Pat Quinn had told Messier that everything had been taken care of before he arrived, but in fact no one from the Canucks had contacted the Maki family. Canucks' management deserve 100% of the blame here, and it is to them that fans should express their anger.
Accusation #3: Messier demanded Linden relinquish the captaincy
REALITY: Linden offered it to Messier freely
When Messier signed in Vancouver at the '97 press conference, he was asked about the captaincy and he publicly endorsed Linden, saying there was no reason to change the captain. However, years later, Linden admitted he felt had had no choice but to give up the captaincy because if the team failed, he was going to get second guessed. That is, Linden completely chickened out at the moment the team was going into a decline. (I don't necessarily fault Linden, though, because it seems that he was under pressure -- probably from Canucks' management, again -- to defer to the high-priced veteran they'd just signed.)
Somehow, Canucks' management subtly pressuring Linden to consider giving up the 'C' has been twisted into "The-evil-Messier-told-noble-Linden-to-give-him-the-'C'-now-or-else!". What Linden should have done here was man-up and do exactly what he told the BC-media he planned to do in September 1997 -- keep the 'C' and just let Messier be another veteran leadership presence in the room. Linden chose not to do what he had planned to do.
Accusation #4: Messier's presence dispirited the Canucks' dressing room
REALITY: The Canucks' dressing room was in a shambolic state, with Linden as captain, from at least 1996, if not 1995.
From LCS-Hockey (1997):
In the summer of 1995 . . . Once holdout captain Trevor Linden was signed, that was supposed to be the year the Canucks took their offense to the next level. Instead . . . rumors of strife and conflict swirled around players and coaching staff alike. After months of speculation, Pat Quinn fired his taciturn coach, Rick Ley, and stepped behind the bench himself....
So, in the summer of 1996, Quinn addressed the dissension in the dressing room by hiring a young, articulate "players’ coach", Tom Renney. Changing the mood was supposed to fix the vibe in the Vancouver dressing room and once again, come training camp, fans were cautiously optimistic about the fresh start. Once again, it didn’t take long for the vision to unravel.... A few big-margin losses quickly drained away all the promised team-spirit, so in-fighting and finger-pointing became the team traditions in a year where the Canucks failed to make the playoffs for the first time this decade.
This is all one year or more before Messier arrived. (Wait, wasn't Linden supposed to be the perfect captain...?) In spring 1997, when Esa Tikkanen and Russ Courtnall were both picked up by the Rangers at the deadline, they both commented publicly on how dysfunctional the Canucks' team was at that time.
Years after Messier left, people like Markus Naslund and Brian Burke have repeatedly praised Mess's leadership qualities during that difficult period for the franchise. (The only Canuck I'm aware of who threw Mess under the bus is that notable Hall of Famer, Gino Odjick, whose 15-minutes of local fame were up by then.)
Accusation #5: Messier's play was terrible & he was hated by Canuck fans
REALITY: Messier's play was passable, considering his age, and he was voted team MVP by the Vancouver fans in 2000
Remembering that Messier was 36 to 39 years old, his point production was:
1998 - 0.73 PPG (3rd on the Canucks)
1999 - 0.81 PPG (2nd on the Canucks)
2000 - 0.82 PPG (2nd on the Canucks)
Since the Dead-Puck era started (roughly 1998 forward), Mess's 0.82 PPG is the 10th-highest in the NHL among 39, 40, and 41-year-olds (min. 40 games played). And most of the names above him played on considerably better teams.
And, again -- this is the hard one for Canucks' fans to swallow -- Messier was voted team MVP for 1999-2000 by Canucks' fans. This, when he was almost 40.
(Five years from now, will Alex Ovechkin be able to get 0.82 PPG? I doubt it.)
Messier's MVP-of-team status in 2000 was probably well deserved. The 1999-2000 Canucks went through a stretch where they won just 3 times in 16 games without injured Mark Messier in the line-up -- and in those final 30 games with Messier, they won 15 games and collected 37 points, missing the playoffs by just 4 points. In that 30 game playoff push, Messier had 26 points. In other words, had 39-year-old Mess not missed some games, they'd probably have made the playoffs in 2000.
Clearly, Messier was not at his best in Vancouver (duh!), and he was not as physically or defensively engaged as during his salad years. But that's exactly what you'd expect from someone his age -- like, say, Joe Thornton today with San Jose.
I could go on, but that's enough...
CONCLUSION:
The Canucks from 1997 to 2000 sucked, with or without Messier. Obviously Messier didn't play that well (though not that bad either), nor did the team, but only a loser-mentality would attempt to pin this on one player. THE FACT IS THIS WAS A NON-PLAYOFF TEAM, AND ALREADY IN DECLINE, BEFORE MESSIER ARRIVED.
The Canucks'-management is mainly to blame for bringing in Messier when it should have been obvious that a youth-movement led by up-and-comers was what was needed, not a pushing-40 veteran, who -- by virtue of his weighty contract -- would be forced into playing big minutes.
At the end of the day, Messier had about 17 brilliant, Hall of Fame seasons (1980-1997) when he was the 2nd to 4th best center in hockey, the winningest player (along with Trottier, Lowe), and he was widely popular and respected by fans, teammates, and media. He is one of the greatest hockey leaders of all time, and his reputation there is fully deserved. His piddly three years on the west coast playing for a team in decline is never going to change that.
With that out of the way, I will now present some cold, hard reality for those who might have been around at that time or who aren't well-versed in the topic (because I wouldn't want them to believe a lot of the stuff posted so far in this thread):
Accusation #1: Messier's arrival destroyed the team
REALITY: The Canucks were already well-into a sharp decline before Messier arrived.
Before Messier:
94/95: 18-18-12 (2nd place)
95/96: 32-35-15 (3rd place)
96/97: 35-40-7 (4th place, missed playoffs)
With Messier:
97/98: 25-43-14 (7th place, missed playoffs)
98/99: 23-47-12 (4th place, missed playoffs)
99/00: 30-29-15-8 (3rd place, missed playoffs by four points)
In retrospect (and at the time, if anyone was looking at it rationally), it's obvious that the early-90s' Canucks team was falling apart from about 1995, and the free-agent signing attempts of Gretzky in '96 (Wayne was willing but Canucks' Stan McCammon, reporting to John McCaw, botched it), and Messier in '97 (successfuly), were desperate moves to prop-up a team in decline. Mess's arrival in autumn '97 coincided with the team's nadir circa 1997-98... whether he was there or not.
Accusation #2: Messier demanded Wayne Maki's retired #11
REALITY: #11 was NOT retired, and it was the Canucks management that told Messier he could wear #11 before he arrived in Vancouver, without consulting the Maki family
Like, duh! This is supposed to be Messier's fault?? An obscure player, who died when Mess was 8 years old (in the middle of violent stick-fight), is supposed to be on a free-agent's mind in 1997 as he's looking for a multi-million dollar deal? How is a brand-new free-agent signing supposed to have "respect for (Canucks') history"? Isn't that managements' job? Is Messier supposed to come into the dressing room, see his #11 practice jersey, and immediately say: "Attention! After my careful off-season study of Canucks' history, I -- on my first day here -- refuse to wear the jersey management has given me because I know a lot about an obscure player!" (cue standing ovation from dressing room)
From The Vancouver Sun, October 18th 1997:
No. 11 was re-issued to new Canuck captain Mark Messier this season after 23 years out of circulation. Beverly Maki was not contacted before the Messier signing July 28 and was shocked to discover her husband's number had been re-issued watching the news conference on television. She doesn't object to Messier wearing No. 11 but would like the number retired again following Messier's career.
Around this time (just after?), Beverly Maki said: "We've offered to let Mark wear it for the three years he plays here and then we want them to retire the number again."
In fact, Pat Quinn had told Messier that everything had been taken care of before he arrived, but in fact no one from the Canucks had contacted the Maki family. Canucks' management deserve 100% of the blame here, and it is to them that fans should express their anger.
Accusation #3: Messier demanded Linden relinquish the captaincy
REALITY: Linden offered it to Messier freely
When Messier signed in Vancouver at the '97 press conference, he was asked about the captaincy and he publicly endorsed Linden, saying there was no reason to change the captain. However, years later, Linden admitted he felt had had no choice but to give up the captaincy because if the team failed, he was going to get second guessed. That is, Linden completely chickened out at the moment the team was going into a decline. (I don't necessarily fault Linden, though, because it seems that he was under pressure -- probably from Canucks' management, again -- to defer to the high-priced veteran they'd just signed.)
Somehow, Canucks' management subtly pressuring Linden to consider giving up the 'C' has been twisted into "The-evil-Messier-told-noble-Linden-to-give-him-the-'C'-now-or-else!". What Linden should have done here was man-up and do exactly what he told the BC-media he planned to do in September 1997 -- keep the 'C' and just let Messier be another veteran leadership presence in the room. Linden chose not to do what he had planned to do.
Accusation #4: Messier's presence dispirited the Canucks' dressing room
REALITY: The Canucks' dressing room was in a shambolic state, with Linden as captain, from at least 1996, if not 1995.
From LCS-Hockey (1997):
In the summer of 1995 . . . Once holdout captain Trevor Linden was signed, that was supposed to be the year the Canucks took their offense to the next level. Instead . . . rumors of strife and conflict swirled around players and coaching staff alike. After months of speculation, Pat Quinn fired his taciturn coach, Rick Ley, and stepped behind the bench himself....
So, in the summer of 1996, Quinn addressed the dissension in the dressing room by hiring a young, articulate "players’ coach", Tom Renney. Changing the mood was supposed to fix the vibe in the Vancouver dressing room and once again, come training camp, fans were cautiously optimistic about the fresh start. Once again, it didn’t take long for the vision to unravel.... A few big-margin losses quickly drained away all the promised team-spirit, so in-fighting and finger-pointing became the team traditions in a year where the Canucks failed to make the playoffs for the first time this decade.
This is all one year or more before Messier arrived. (Wait, wasn't Linden supposed to be the perfect captain...?) In spring 1997, when Esa Tikkanen and Russ Courtnall were both picked up by the Rangers at the deadline, they both commented publicly on how dysfunctional the Canucks' team was at that time.
Years after Messier left, people like Markus Naslund and Brian Burke have repeatedly praised Mess's leadership qualities during that difficult period for the franchise. (The only Canuck I'm aware of who threw Mess under the bus is that notable Hall of Famer, Gino Odjick, whose 15-minutes of local fame were up by then.)
Accusation #5: Messier's play was terrible & he was hated by Canuck fans
REALITY: Messier's play was passable, considering his age, and he was voted team MVP by the Vancouver fans in 2000
Remembering that Messier was 36 to 39 years old, his point production was:
1998 - 0.73 PPG (3rd on the Canucks)
1999 - 0.81 PPG (2nd on the Canucks)
2000 - 0.82 PPG (2nd on the Canucks)
Since the Dead-Puck era started (roughly 1998 forward), Mess's 0.82 PPG is the 10th-highest in the NHL among 39, 40, and 41-year-olds (min. 40 games played). And most of the names above him played on considerably better teams.
And, again -- this is the hard one for Canucks' fans to swallow -- Messier was voted team MVP for 1999-2000 by Canucks' fans. This, when he was almost 40.
(Five years from now, will Alex Ovechkin be able to get 0.82 PPG? I doubt it.)
Messier's MVP-of-team status in 2000 was probably well deserved. The 1999-2000 Canucks went through a stretch where they won just 3 times in 16 games without injured Mark Messier in the line-up -- and in those final 30 games with Messier, they won 15 games and collected 37 points, missing the playoffs by just 4 points. In that 30 game playoff push, Messier had 26 points. In other words, had 39-year-old Mess not missed some games, they'd probably have made the playoffs in 2000.
Clearly, Messier was not at his best in Vancouver (duh!), and he was not as physically or defensively engaged as during his salad years. But that's exactly what you'd expect from someone his age -- like, say, Joe Thornton today with San Jose.
I could go on, but that's enough...
CONCLUSION:
The Canucks from 1997 to 2000 sucked, with or without Messier. Obviously Messier didn't play that well (though not that bad either), nor did the team, but only a loser-mentality would attempt to pin this on one player. THE FACT IS THIS WAS A NON-PLAYOFF TEAM, AND ALREADY IN DECLINE, BEFORE MESSIER ARRIVED.
The Canucks'-management is mainly to blame for bringing in Messier when it should have been obvious that a youth-movement led by up-and-comers was what was needed, not a pushing-40 veteran, who -- by virtue of his weighty contract -- would be forced into playing big minutes.
At the end of the day, Messier had about 17 brilliant, Hall of Fame seasons (1980-1997) when he was the 2nd to 4th best center in hockey, the winningest player (along with Trottier, Lowe), and he was widely popular and respected by fans, teammates, and media. He is one of the greatest hockey leaders of all time, and his reputation there is fully deserved. His piddly three years on the west coast playing for a team in decline is never going to change that.
Man Bear Pig
Registered User
Vancouver Canucks
Registered User
- Feb 8, 2015
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I know; Canucks fans really need to calm down and settle this with Messier in a diplomatic manner.
MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 51,723
- 17,625
The problem was giving him that much "power" in the first place.
Messier isn't the first nor the last man who fails to realize he wasn't the same as he once was.
sepster
Gerard Gallant is my Spirit Animal
Mark Messier is the most overrated leader in the sport. Missing the playoffs his last seven years in the league, often on a team with the highest payroll, loads of depth and yet dysfunctional locker rooms? Yeah, great leader there.
sr edler
gold is not reality
- Mar 20, 2010
- 12,135
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Uh perhaps when it comes to point production. Problem is he didn't show any of the stuff outside of point production that had made him such a feared and effective presence in prior years. The fact that he didn't even try to cheap shot anyone while in Van, which was his bread and butter, shows he just didn't care that much, and that he probably didn't even want to be there. He only signed in Van because $ and the fact he didn't get a deal in NY. But it's obviously not Messier's fault Van signed him, it's 100% on the management.
sr edler
gold is not reality
- Mar 20, 2010
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Speaks volumes. Näslund's leadership centered around looking constantly depressed, especially when he scored goals.
I bet Messier brainwashed poor Näslund with cliches like "never get too high or too low" and "stick with process".
David Bruce Banner
Acid Raven Bed Burn
That was always my argument with Messier... not his "taking the number 11", not his "pushing Linden out", not any of the off ice shit. It was his actual play. For all the intensity and fire he showed, we might have well signed Craig Janney.
This is largely what I was saying, and while I hated Messier with the Canucks I have come to understand things better looking back.
Though one correction: Maki died in 1974 from brain cancer, not the stick incident with Ted Green. Messier would have been 13 then, not that it detracts from the overall point.
True enough but IMO a great leader would have handled things differently.
After all Linden resigned from his executive position on a matter of principle but for Moose it was 6 million per year and stroking his ego so he shares the blame.
It doesn't change what he did for the Oilers or NYR but it is part of his legacy.
DudeWhereIsMakar
Bergevin sent me an offer sheet
I remember my family just moved to Vancouver when this all went down. Everybody was so excited that Messier was going to play for the Canucks. But this literally forced out Canucks legends such as Mogilny, Linden, Bure, etc. The only silver lining from all of this was the Canucks got the Sedins.
I think what also makes him much more hated is the fact he captained the Rangers that beat the Canucks in the 1993-94 finals.
There are many what if things in hockey, but if the Canucks had never flirted with signing Messier or Gretzky tons would be different within the Canucks. But the one big thing that likely wouldn't have happened was the Bertuzzi-Moore incident.
I think what also makes him much more hated is the fact he captained the Rangers that beat the Canucks in the 1993-94 finals.
There are many what if things in hockey, but if the Canucks had never flirted with signing Messier or Gretzky tons would be different within the Canucks. But the one big thing that likely wouldn't have happened was the Bertuzzi-Moore incident.
Bank Shot
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2006
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Only for Canucks fans crying fake tears over Wanye Maki.
Anyone else just sees Messier's time in Vancouver as "Spent three years in Vancouver near the end of his career".
Bravo! I was there too and remember it very much as you state. I forgot about the MVP part. The Haters are quite pathetic IMHO...
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