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Value of: Vejmelka or Ingram to EDM

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Mr Positive said:
Then you would get no assets in return, and worse value of your draft picks, since selling the goalie is the best way to tank. Imo there must be a deal out there where both sides are happy
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I have no interest in tanking anymore, and based on everything we have heard from management, neither does Utah. Unless it’s a first, or an offer too good to pass up, keep him. If he walks, he walks.
 
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Jormungandr said:
I have no interest in tanking anymore, and based on everything we have heard from management, neither does Utah. Unless it’s a first, or an offer too good to pass up, keep him. If he walks, he walks.
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Tanking for this season doesn't have to have long term consequences. There have been teams who had a one-off awful season with a top 5 pick and then snap right back into playoffs. I don't know what Utah's management has said, but I'm willing to bet that they have no interest in a rebuild, but tanking for March and April might be okay.

If you get a top 5 pick out of this season or won the lottery, heck, imagine the win-now assets you'd get if you put it up for sale to the highest bidder
 
Jormungandr said:
I have no interest in tanking anymore, and based on everything we have heard from management, neither does Utah. Unless it’s a first, or an offer too good to pass up, keep him. If he walks, he walks.
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It isn't really tanking to sell off your UFA assets if your team isn't in the playoff hunt, but that's just semantics I guess. Teams should be selling UFA's that they aren't going to re-sign if they aren't going to make the playoffs. It's just smart asset management. Something is better than nothing. If they plan on re-signing him, then obviously they won't trade him, and if they plan on making a push for the playoffs, then trading him wouldn't make any sense either, but Utah is 6 points back and have to pass two teams to get back into a playoff spot. Even with a lot of picks, it doesn't make sense for a non-playoff team to just let UFA assets walk away for nothing, but if Utah management thinks they can pull together a hot streak and pass Calgary and Vancouver, then it makes sense to keep him.
 
ManofSteel55 said:
It isn't really tanking to sell off your UFA assets if your team isn't in the playoff hunt, but that's just semantics I guess. Teams should be selling UFA's that they aren't going to re-sign if they aren't going to make the playoffs. It's just smart asset management. Something is better than nothing. If they plan on re-signing him, then obviously they won't trade him, and if they plan on making a push for the playoffs, then trading him wouldn't make any sense either, but Utah is 6 points back and have to pass two teams to get back into a playoff spot. Even with a lot of picks, it doesn't make sense for a non-playoff team to just let UFA assets walk away for nothing, but if Utah management thinks they can pull together a hot streak and pass Calgary and Vancouver, then it makes sense to keep him.
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Meh, I agree and don't agree. GMs also have a lot of pride and play favourites. If EDM or anyone else isn't giving a fair offer/fitting their needs, it doesn't make sense for Utah to give him away just to give him away for someone else's benefit. Draft picks have some value but they have less value the more one team has. There's also a chance Armstrong would rather see another team win instead of increasing Edmonton's chances just for the sake of it, unless the return made clear sense.

But Demko seems to be out long term again and there's not much of a race in the West. A struggling franchise in a new location values a playoff push more than a meh return on a UFA goalie IMO
 
Freaky Styley said:
Meh, I agree and don't agree. GMs also have a lot of pride and play favourites. If EDM or anyone else isn't giving a fair offer/fitting their needs, it doesn't make sense for Utah to give him away just to give him away for someone else's benefit. Draft picks have some value but they have less value the more one team has. There's also a chance Armstrong would rather see another team win instead of increasing Edmonton's chances just for the sake of it, unless the return made clear sense.

But Demko seems to be out long term again and there's not much of a race in the West. A struggling franchise in a new location values a playoff push more than a meh return on a UFA goalie IMO
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I disagree with this sentiment. Draft picks are currency. If your team has an abundance of them, bundle them up to trade for a player. Suddenly, your UFA goalie who you are walking away from could be worth a 2nd round pick that you include in a package for an asset you really need - a top six forward, top 4 defenseman, etc. If draft picks were limited to only being used for the pick, I would agree that the more you have, the less interest you should have in them, but teams can't have enough trade capital. I mean, it's not like we're talking about late picks that can't be used for much, if a team is willing to part with fair market value for a UFA that, in this scenario, you aren't going to re-sign, then it makes no sense to keep him. Sure, tell the teams trying to get him for a 4th round pick to take a hike if you really think he is worth a 2nd, but to just keep him and let him turn into nothing is silly.

I do agree though, if the plan is to push for the playoffs, its fair to keep him, but at this stage, 6 points back is a significant gap to close.
 
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ManofSteel55 said:
I disagree with this sentiment. Draft picks are currency. If your team has an abundance of them, bundle them up to trade for a player. Suddenly, your UFA goalie who you are walking away from could be worth a 2nd round pick that you include in a package for an asset you really need - a top six forward, top 4 defenseman, etc. If draft picks were limited to only being used for the pick, I would agree that the more you have, the less interest you should have in them, but teams can't have enough trade capital. I mean, it's not like we're talking about late picks that can't be used for much, if a team is willing to part with fair market value for a UFA that, in this scenario, you aren't going to re-sign, then it makes no sense to keep him. Sure, tell the teams trying to get him for a 4th round pick to take a hike if you really think he is worth a 2nd, but to just keep him and let him turn into nothing is silly.

I do agree though, if the plan is to push for the playoffs, its fair to keep him, but at this stage, 6 points back is a significant gap to close.
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Okay, then lets Consolidate.
Vejmelka+3rd for your 1st
 
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samabam said:
Okay, then lets Consolidate.
Vejmelka+3rd for your 1st
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I think its a fair ask right now, but I also think its a bit steep and would hold out to hope Utah would take the 2nd round pick for him. If the Oilers are trading their 1st, I'm hopeful that the target is a top 4 defenseman. I think we need 3 pieces to really be where I want the Oilers to be, and we will certainly need a 1st to trade for that defenseman, but trading St. Louis' 2nd from the Broberg offer sheet, and also maybe including a middle of the road prospect (if you need, I'm unfamiliar with Utah's prospect pool) for Vejmelka feels like fair value to me, if nobody else were to offer the 1st that you are after by the deadline. The other piece I would want is someone who can score some more goals, but that might not be out there for the mid round picks and future picks we have to offer.
 
ManofSteel55 said:
I think its a fair ask right now, but I also think its a bit steep and would hold out to hope Utah would take the 2nd round pick for him. If the Oilers are trading their 1st, I'm hopeful that the target is a top 4 defenseman. I think we need 3 pieces to really be where I want the Oilers to be, and we will certainly need a 1st to trade for that defenseman, but trading St. Louis' 2nd from the Broberg offer sheet, and also maybe including a middle of the road prospect (if you need, I'm unfamiliar with Utah's prospect pool) for Vejmelka feels like fair value to me, if nobody else were to offer the 1st that you are after by the deadline. The other piece I would want is someone who can score some more goals, but that might not be out there for the mid round picks and future picks we have to offer.
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I don't disagree in general with selling of assets and trying to consolidate the rewards for higher picks but I think that's more for teams that are in the beginning phases of a rebuild.
Utah however already has pieces that can be considered the core assets of the rebuild on the NHL roster - Cooley and Gunther for example.
For Utah it's probably more worth it to be as good as they can be this season as to not enable a culture of losing, which is a stink I consider hard to get rid off and have seen a few franchises struggle with over the years.
Especially if I look at teams that will probably be drafting before Utah, I dont see any of them interested in trading their first for Utahs first+Edmontons second (which will probably be a late 2nd rounder) so consolidation might be tougher than it sounds right now
 
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samabam said:
I don't disagree in general with selling of assets and trying to consolidate the rewards for higher picks but I think that's more for teams that are in the beginning phases of a rebuild.
Utah however already has pieces that can be considered the core assets of the rebuild on the NHL roster - Cooley and Gunther for example.
For Utah it's probably more worth it to be as good as they can be this season as to not enable a culture of losing, which is a stink I consider hard to get rid off and have seen a few franchises struggle with over the years.
Especially if I look at teams that will probably be drafting before Utah, I dont see any of them interested in trading their first for Utahs first+Edmontons second (which will probably be a late 2nd rounder) so consolidation might be tougher than it sounds right now
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Those picks don't have to be used to trade up though. If you have a couple of 2nds, those can be used to trade for a pretty good NHL player to plug in around your young guys like Gunther and Cooley. Draft capital doesn't have to be used at the draft.

But, like I have said a number of times, if Utah would rather push for the playoffs, it absolutely makes more sense to just hang on to him.
 
ManofSteel55 said:
Those picks don't have to be used to trade up though. If you have a couple of 2nds, those can be used to trade for a pretty good NHL player to plug in around your young guys like Gunther and Cooley. Draft capital doesn't have to be used at the draft.

But, like I have said a number of times, if Utah would rather push for the playoffs, it absolutely makes more sense to just hang on to him.
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Utahs biggest need is a 2C - who do you see being available for a couple of 2nds to fill that hole?
 
samabam said:
Utahs biggest need is a 2C - who do you see being available for a couple of 2nds to fill that hole?
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I have no idea. If I did, I would probably work towards an NHL front office job, ha ha. If there are any available, you could likely use Utah's 1st and a 2nd that you get from another team in the Vejmelka trade to go after that player. There are often unexpected players that come available over the summer. Having more draft capital makes it more likely that you could target one. Having more picks also makes it easier to trade prospects without hurting your future. It opens up a lot of options, even if we don't necessarily know the exact target right now.
 
ManofSteel55 said:
I do agree though, if the plan is to push for the playoffs, its fair to keep him, but at this stage, 6 points back is a significant gap to close.
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It's not that significant when there's only with 26 games left and Vancouver's best goalie maybe out long-term again.

Another thing Utah might be thinking is to re-sign Vejmelka. Probably more worth it for them to do that since they don't have many better options, and just continue with him and Ingram as a duo. Obviously the ball is in Vejmelka's court.

I think Gibson is the better target for the Oilers although I know it comes with some cap complications
 
Freaky Styley said:
It's not that significant when there's only with 26 games left and Vancouver's best goalie maybe out long-term again.

Another thing Utah might be thinking is to re-sign Vejmelka. Probably more worth it for them to do that since they don't have many better options, and just continue with him and Ingram as a duo. Obviously the ball is in Vejmelka's court.

I think Gibson is the better target for the Oilers although I know it comes with some cap complications
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6 Points is still significant. 26 games seems like a lot, but historically, you're banking on two teams finishing really poorly, or Utah going on a heater. I've said more than once though, that it only makes sense for Utah if they fall further back before the deadline and don't feel they can agree to a new deal with Vejmelka.

I don't think Gibson is an option at all. We can't afford his full cap hit. Rumor is that our GM isn't looking for a goalie anyway. Huge miss if true, but it would make all of this talk has no chance of coming to pass anyway.
 
ManofSteel55 said:
6 Points is still significant. 26 games seems like a lot, but historically, you're banking on two teams finishing really poorly, or Utah going on a heater. I've said more than once though, that it only makes sense for Utah if they fall further back before the deadline and don't feel they can agree to a new deal with Vejmelka.

I don't think Gibson is an option at all. We can't afford his full cap hit. Rumor is that our GM isn't looking for a goalie anyway. Huge miss if true, but it would make all of this talk has no chance of coming to pass anyway.
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26 games is 1/3 of the season. 52 possible points. Plus they play VAN twice and CGY once in that span. They essentially control their own fate. CGY was tanking before the break and VAN just lost their G, while Utah was heating up. Would not surprise me at all to see them make it, especially with Durzi coming back.

Montreal is also 6 points back but they are battling with 5-6 other teams. I bet their odds are half of Utah's. When it's only a 3 team race it's a lot more achievable.

And yes, huge waste of a season with Connor and Leon on their deals if Bowman doesn't make a move for a goalie.
 
ManofSteel55 said:
I have no idea. If I did, I would probably work towards an NHL front office job, ha ha. If there are any available, you could likely use Utah's 1st and a 2nd that you get from another team in the Vejmelka trade to go after that player. There are often unexpected players that come available over the summer. Having more draft capital makes it more likely that you could target one. Having more picks also makes it easier to trade prospects without hurting your future. It opens up a lot of options, even if we don't necessarily know the exact target right now.
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Fair enough.
For me personally EDMs second is not enticing enough to move Vejmelka, but I understand if you want to use your first for other improvements
 
Mr Positive said:
Then you would get no assets in return, and worse value of your draft picks, since selling the goalie is the best way to tank. Imo there must be a deal out there where both sides are happy
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Why would a team like Utah actively tank? I mean they are trying to compete, are in a new city, have an absurd amount of draft capital and have been trying to improve the roster since the summer.

If anything they should be jettising picks and youth to actively continue to build around their young core.

For the oilers it's sad that their entire deadline hinges on praying Kane pulls a Stone and is out till game 83 while being stuck at least 6 million in wasted cap in Jeff Skinner and Ardvidsen and that's being conservative.

Being unable to dump some bloat by rectifying bad moves could very well haunt them and who knows maybe Blackwood, Marcus Pettersson etc could have been viable targets if they had the space available, nevermind not being poached via an offer sheet if those two dumb signings had never happened.

Realistically even with cap space at the deadline there's not much out there to even add compared to what was available
 
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