Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[pantherbot]

The league can't do anything without a new rule being bargained into the next CBA.

Yes I know that, it would be bargained between the two parties and the league would then put in the rule. I'm not saying the league would do it themselves.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yes I know that, it would be bargained between the two parties and the league would then put in the rule. I'm not saying the league would do it themselves.

Your going in circles now.

Earlier you said, in response to it would never get approved by players.

This argument keeps coming up, but that is an assumption that's been made. There's no evidence to suggest the NHLPA would say no.

 

[pantherbot]

Terminally online fans are not representative of NHL fans in general

Pretty sure a majority of NHL fans are online. I think you mean to say that engaged fans are not representative which is probably true. All things have more casual fans than engaged fans.

But engaged fans are ones leagues care about because they bring in the most money. This is obviously an issue that engaged fans care about, and the league is aware, otherwise they wouldn't even consider exploring the issue.

Doesn't mean they'll do something about it, I know its up to the players/league, but there are indications that at least some of the GMs and players think its an issue.

Your going in circles now.

Earlier you said, in response to it would never get approved by players.

This argument keeps coming up, but that is an assumption that's been made. There's no evidence to suggest the NHLPA would say no.

What? I'm saying the two parties would need to agree. When I say the NHLPA won't necessarily say no, I mean to the idea, not the league itself. You're just talking semantics now.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Forget about the NHLPA, GMs are not in favor of changing the rules. When it was brough up in a GM meeting only a handful of teams were willing to even discuss it. I believe it was Tampa that brought it up after Chicago did it. Teams werent willing to change the rules so they could potential do it, so Tampa said screw it.

 

[TheBeard]

T minus 8 hours until Mark is activated for the playoffs

They won't do it until they see how the first two games in Edmonton go. If they split there then they're wait until game 4. It's blatantly obvious they're only gonna activate him when they need him.

 

[Zirakzigil]

They won't do it until they see how the first two games in Edmonton go. If they split there then they're wait until game 4. It's blatantly obvious they're only gonna activate him when they need him.

If hes "healthy" enough to play, he will play. They wont hold him out. Id be shocked if he didnt play game 1 to be honest.

 

[pantherbot]

Forget about the NHLPA, GMs are not in favor of changing the rules. When it was brough up in a GM meeting only a handful of teams were willing to even discuss it. I believe it was Tampa that brought it up after Chicago did it. Teams werent willing to change the rules so they could potential do it, so Tampa said screw it.

Feels different this time. We'll see what comes out of the working group meetings. Maybe you're right. But the fact it's getting written up a lot more this time and just how blatant the loophole is being exploited, sounds like there may be more movement now.

 

[TheBeard]

If hes "healthy" enough to play, he will play. They wont hold him out. Id be shocked if he didnt play game 1 to be honest.

I don't think he's 100% but until they lose a game at home they won't panic and rush him.

 

[WhataKnight]

On NHL/NHLPA negotiations, you guys are saying this as if its just the NHL that would want some rule change to fix this. We'll see how it all goes.

The GM groups are supposed to discuss on whether this is important to the teams enough to warrant addressing, I'm going to guess yes based on the initial comments from the article in The Athletic.

The players, harder to say, but on the Cam & Strick podcast, Andy was saying that its an issue that team management and players want to see addressed.

Lastly, the fans also want this and it would be in the best interest of both the NHL/NHLPA to work on some solution. If they do nothing, it'll happen again and again. Its just going to be a farce every other year. I know some in this thread think the fan opinions don't matter, but we'll see. Sometimes it does.

So if there's alignment between the GM and players to address the issue, then they'll work together on something reasonable.

Not so many fans that this didn’t slip through the last CBA like a bureaucratic tetris while 0 of 30 legal teams mounted a crusade against it.

As for the NHLPA, enough players actively don’t want it - they want the Cup, and as many chances to raise it as possible. They’ll fight any barrier to that, and by that logic I think maybe .01% of the answers we all keep beating around here hold water. If it was so easy to figure out, it wouldn’t have been left unresolved during the last CBA negotiations & lockout.

This has happened twice before the Knights, and the Knights until this year weren’t even the most egregious implementers of it. That would be Tampa. Don’t get me wrong - I want a clean solution as well. But god forbid if I recognize some percentage of the frantic drive to see this as people that got peeved that it worked for Chicago and Tampa seeing Vegas doing it so effectively and shitting a bus over the new team making it work.

 

[WhataKnight]

Feels different this time. We'll see what comes out of the working group meetings. Maybe you're right. But the fact it's getting written up a lot more this time and just how blatant the loophole is being exploited, sounds like there may be more movement now.

Isn’t that a mountain out of a molehill? The league already said last year that it was stepping g up it’s diligence on these matters.

This is a hard one to map because 85% of those jumping to their feet, pointing at the Knights and shouting “CHEATERS!!!!!” gloss over how injury prone Mark Stone is.

I want a process that all teams feel comfortable using, but when the verbiage reveals a biased desire to punish VGK, it sounds kinda like the Winklevoss twins complaining to the Dean of Harvard over Zuck stealing their idea, chucking a history of valid injuries into the tin foil hat zone.

If my choices are seeing NHL owners told to shit or get off the pot and be better at keeping a happy SPQR with fresher bread and bigger circuses, and a culture that lets more middle ground owners pick from Meruelo’s playbook rather than Foley’s? I pick former every time. Oilers, Avs, Stars, Panthers. I don’t care - more teams in it like this makes a more entertaining league…….and my post history will show no deviation from that central point.

An amount the recriminations……(you mean….’Kelly McCrimminations’?)….a percentage of the complaints will always sound to me like something Tupac could describe verbatim in a diss track.

Anyone who was quiet as a mouse in ‘20-‘21 over TB deciding to do their best lion volume now? I say “nice Tannoys for a mouse!” & wait for the next CBA. Settle it then, let it be done. Right now, willingly walking into a playground fight expecting fairness while knowing the other kid may have a rock in his fist just means something gullible happened, either GM to league, or GM to fans.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Pietrangelo is still out of the lineup and people are really confused about what is going on. $8.8 million cap hit. So far all I’ve heard is he has been sick for weeks.

He did play 2 games, March 30 and April 2. If anything, that f***ed Vegas because without it they probably could have made whatever moves to put him on LTIR and taken Stone off.

 

[pantherbot]

Not so many fans that this didn’t slip through the last CBA like a bureaucratic tetris while 0 of 30 legal teams mounted a crusade against it.

As for the NHLPA, enough players actively don’t want it - they want the Cup, and as many chances to raise it as possible. They’ll fight any barrier to that, and by that logic I think maybe .01% of the answers we all keep beating around here hold water. If it was so easy to figure out, it wouldn’t have been left unresolved during the last CBA negotiations & lockout.

This has happened twice before the Knights, and the Knights until this year weren’t even the most egregious implementers of it. That would be Tampa. Don’t get me wrong - I want a clean solution as well. But god forbid if I recognize some percentage of the frantic drive to see this as people that got peeved that it worked for Chicago and Tampa seeing Vegas doing it so effectively and shitting a bus over the new team making it work.

Isn’t that a mountain out of a molehill? The league already said last year that it was stepping g up it’s diligence on these matters.

This is a hard one to map because 85% of those jumping to their feet, pointing at the Knights and shouting “CHEATERS!!!!!” gloss over how injury prone Mark Stone is.

I want a process that all teams feel comfortable using, but when the verbiage reveals a biased desire to punish VGK, it sounds kinda like the Winklevoss twins complaining to the Dean of Harvard over Zuck stealing their idea, chucking a history of valid injuries into the tin foil hat zone.

If my choices are seeing NHL owners told to shit or get off the pot and be better at keeping a happy SPQR with fresher bread and bigger circuses, and a culture that lets more middle ground owners pick from Meruelo’s playbook rather than Foley’s? I pick former every time. Oilers, Avs, Stars, Panthers. I don’t care - more teams in it like this makes a more entertaining league…….and my post history will show no deviation from that central point.

An amount the recriminations……(you mean….’Kelly McCrimminations’?)….a percentage of the complaints will always sound to me like something Tupac could describe verbatim in a diss track.

Anyone who was quiet as a mouse in ‘20-‘21 over TB deciding to do their best lion volume now? I say “nice Tannoys for a mouse!” & wait for the next CBA. Settle it then, let it be done. Right now, willingly walking into a playground fight expecting fairness while knowing the other kid may have a rock in his fist just means something gullible happened, either GM to league, or GM to fans.

You're seeing what you want to see so it fits with the narrative that people are hating on Vegas for being a new team and succeeding. People also hated that Tampa did it, if they didn't, Tampa wouldn't have made a shirt to mock what they did with Kucherov. Chicago was quieter because it was the first time that happened.

Also the difference between Tampa/Chicago vs. Vegas is Vegas doing it for the second year in a row, plus this has now become common. First time Chicago does it? Raises eyebrows. Second time Tampa does it? People hated it and some put an asterisk on their cup. Third time Vegas does it and then now fourth time? Yeah people are going to be annoyed. If some other team did the same, people would be just as annoyed. Yeah some may hate on this more because its Vegas, but there's a lot of people who hate this because its against the spirit of the rules even if technically legal.

Re: whether the players want it or not, you're making an assumption that they don't want any changes. From listening to Andy Strickland, there are at least some players that want this to change. Changing the rule around how LTIR works with playoffs won't change the chances of players winning a cup, that makes no sense. Only one team will win the cup a year, doesn't matter what the rules say.

In this thread, there's a narrative by some that the league doesn't want this to change, or that the players don't want it to change, or even that fans don't want this to change. But from everything we're reading and hearing, that's just not true. Fans definitely want change and at least some players and GMs want a change, whether or not that's enough, we'll have to see.

 

[WaitingForThatCab]

Anyone who was quiet as a mouse in ‘20-‘21 over TB deciding to do their best lion volume now?

Uh, tons of people complained loudly about the Lightning doing this.

 

[WhataKnight]

You're seeing what you want to see so it fits with the narrative that people are hating on Vegas for being a new team and succeeding. People also hated that Tampa did it, if they didn't, Tampa wouldn't have made a shirt to mock what they did with Kucherov. Chicago was quieter because it was the first time that happened.

Also the difference between Tampa/Chicago vs. Vegas is Vegas doing it for the second year in a row, plus this has now become common. First time Chicago does it? Raises eyebrows. Second time Tampa does it? People hated it and some put an asterisk on their cup. Third time Vegas does it and then now fourth time? Yeah people are going to be annoyed. If some other team did the same, people would be just as annoyed. Yeah some may hate on this more because its Vegas, but there's a lot of people who hate this because its against the spirit of the rules even if technically legal.

Re: whether the players want it or not, you're making an assumption that they don't want any changes. From listening to Andy Strickland, there are at least some players that want this to change. Changing the rule around how LTIR works with playoffs won't change the chances of players winning a cup, that makes no sense. Only one team will win the cup a year, doesn't matter what the rules say.

In this thread, there's a narrative by some that the league doesn't want this to change, or that the players don't want it to change, or even that fans don't want this to change. But from everything we're reading and hearing, that's just not true. Fans definitely want change and at least some players and GMs want a change, whether or not that's enough, we'll have to see.

Fan of the sport first before a specific team.

By virtue of that, I’m going to have to push back against that “seeing what I want to see” assumption. Tampa made shirts, but they didn’t trigger 14 months and 50k posts of haphazard attempts at strategizing how to clip one team’s approach.

Changes are coming - I never debated that. My issue is in how permissible it was - in comparison - with Tampa than it is with Vegas.

Either way, nothing is changing until 2026-27. While I do want something that allows for flexibility, I have said this whole time that while it is an active mechanism, more teams should use it - rather than ride a narrative of excuses to sell to a fanbase.

At the end of the day, our individual opinions don’t move needles on this as much as the last CBA round…..which let it happen. Until the next CBA, anything less than utilizing g 100% of the playing field is essentially a schoolyard fight where someone bets their opponent won’t have a rock in their fist.

Once it changes - great. I am not a legal mind, so I’m not one to devise a pure solution. That said, the current method is better than all the “Jesse Pinkman meme”-fueled half baked ideas people throw here because f*** Vegas.

Uh, tons of people complained loudly about the Lightning doing this.

Tons did. 100% agreed.

As of last spring, it became far more…..multitudinous. Like, bee sting to bear trap.

Both statements are true.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Uh, tons of people complained loudly about the Lightning doing this.

To the point where Kucherov (I believe) wore a shirt at the victory parade mocking the complaints.

 

[WhataKnight]

To the point where Kucherov (I believe) wore a shirt at the victory parade mocking the complaints.

Thank you.

It was more on par with calling Marchand a rat in a chirp, as opposed to Hull’s skate obviously being in the crease versus the Sabres.

Jape versus character-questioning indictment - both views can be accurate here.

“Cup in Six” is quite a bit less on the nose than “10M over the Cap.” I’m no Lightning fan, but I’d be amazed if Kucherov/TB got the same amount of hate that Stone/VGK receives over it. Could be that I’m in the western US and not in the flightpath of anti-Bolts anger, but I don’t think I’d too far off to say that while both instances drew ire, Vegas seems to get more hate over it.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Thank you.

It was more on par with calling Marchand a rat in a chirp, as opposed to Hull’s skate obviously being in the crease versus the Sabres.

Jape versus character-questioning indictment - both views can be accurate here.

“Cup in Six” is quite a bit less on the nose than “10M over the Cap.” I’m no Lightning fan, but I’d be amazed if Kucherov/TB got the same amount of hate that Stone/VGK receives over it. Could be that I’m in the western US and not in the flightpath of anti-Bolts anger, but I don’t think I’d too far off to say that while both instances drew ire, Vegas seems to get more hate over it.

Well, Vegas gets more hate over it because they’re repeat offenders. Add in that they’re not exactly hiding their tactics, and yeah, you’re going to have a lot of people upset.

 

[WhataKnight]

Well, Vegas gets more hate over it because they’re repeat offenders. Add in that they’re not exactly hiding their tactics, and yeah, you’re going to have a lot of people upset.

If - either the spine or spleen injuries were fake.

That opens up another question. Is the league really doing diligence, or are they sleeping on it?

If they’re not proctoring the hell out of it, the league needs more integrity itself…..to be addressed with the next CBA, hopefully.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

If - either the spine or spleen injuries were fake.

That opens up another question. Is the league really doing diligence, or are they sleeping on it?

If they’re not proctoring the hell out of it, the league needs more integrity itself…..to be addressed with the next CBA, hopefully.

I don’t think either injury is fake. I think they’re both real. I just think the Knights are fudging the return window to ensure they can manipulate the cap.

This spleen one is especially blatant, because the only way to determine a lacerated spleen is to run a CT scan. And when you run that scan, you can determine the severity of the laceration, and depending on the severity, you can estimate a time table for their return. So all the information needed to predict Stone’s return was available the minute they determined he lacerated his spleen.

But if you ask McCimmon, “it’s impossible to tell” when Stone will return. Because if you don’t announce how severe the laceration is, the return table can be any date they choose. And coincidentally, that return table lines up with around the time Stone’s cap hit becomes no longer relevant. Gee, isn’t that lucky?

 

[Video Nasty]

Who cares what tricks they have? Vegas is a below .500 team since mid-December and have won just 25 games in four months. They're going to get rolled by Dallas.

 

[pantherbot]

Fan of the sport first before a specific team.

By virtue of that, I’m going to have to push back against that “seeing what I want to see” assumption. Tampa made shirts, but they didn’t trigger 14 months and 50k posts of haphazard attempts at strategizing how to clip one team’s approach.

Changes are coming - I never debated that. My issue is in how permissible it was - in comparison - with Tampa than it is with Vegas.

Either way, nothing is changing until 2026-27. While I do want something that allows for flexibility, I have said this whole time that while it is an active mechanism, more teams should use it - rather than ride a narrative of excuses to sell to a fanbase.

At the end of the day, our individual opinions don’t move needles on this as much as the last CBA round…..which let it happen. Until the next CBA, anything less than utilizing g 100% of the playing field is essentially a schoolyard fight where someone bets their opponent won’t have a rock in their fist.

Once it changes - great. I am not a legal mind, so I’m not one to devise a pure solution. That said, the current method is better than all the “Jesse Pinkman meme”-fueled half baked ideas people throw here because f*** Vegas.



Tons did. 100% agreed.

As of last spring, it became far more…..multitudinous. Like, bee sting to bear trap.

Both statements are true.

Tampa got lots of hate for it. They also got hate for winning Covid cups. People will hate on you for winning. It's not a Vegas thing. No need to play victim.

If Vegas is getting more crap for it, it's because as others said, Vegas are repeat offenders and it's the same player two years in a row. Then add on it's being done for several years now, Vegas will get hate for it. But it's not because Vegas. Any other team trying to do the same would get the same reaction.

I get what you're saying that other teams should do the same, but it's not that simple. The ability to do so is basically random. A player needs to get hurt at the right time. Then the team needs to be in a good enough playoff position to think they can shut the player down until playoffs start.

Look at Florida. Ekblad got hurt literally the day after the deadline. If he was hurt 24 hours earlier, they would've had $7.5M to use, but instead got no replacement and he might be back for game 1.

So you can say all you want about other team management needing to step up or whatever, but it's not that simple. That's what makes this loophole so dumb.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Tampa got lots of hate for it. They also got hate for winning Covid cups. People will hate on you for winning. It's not a Vegas thing. No need to play victim.

If Vegas is getting more crap for it, it's because as others said, Vegas are repeat offenders and it's the same player two years in a row. Then add on it's being done for several years now, Vegas will get hate for it. But it's not because Vegas. Any other team trying to do the same would get the same reaction.

I get what you're saying that other teams should do the same, but it's not that simple. The ability to do so is basically random. A player needs to get hurt at the right time. Then the team needs to be in a good enough playoff position to think they can shut the player down until playoffs start.

Look at Florida. Ekblad got hurt literally the day after the deadline. If he was hurt 24 hours earlier, they would've had $7.5M to use, but instead got no replacement and he might be back for game 1.

So you can say all you want about other team management needing to step up or whatever, but it's not that simple. That's what makes this loophole so dumb.

Three, actually........only difference is, I think in that first year he came back a little earlier and they missed the playoffs.

But this is the third straight season of Stone spending a stretch on LTIR before suiting up to play again.

Which, to clarify, he's certainly allowed to do. Hell, maybe next year makes four.

 

[RC51]

this all goes back to tampa starting the playoffs 20 million over the cap due to players suddenly off the ltir the day the playoffs start. now everybody does it. this reminds me of the russians olympic drug stuff. The most important thing is the russuian guy winning the gold no matter what and that PHOTO OP. yes sure a few years after a small announcement on page 26 russian stripped of gold. NO WAY the NHL would strip the Tampa engraving on the cup after declaring Tampa cheated LOOKS BAD FOR THE NHL. SO now everyone is doing it and it's NOT FIXED YET????????????????

 

[Fatass]

You're seeing what you want to see so it fits with the narrative that people are hating on Vegas for being a new team and succeeding. People also hated that Tampa did it, if they didn't, Tampa wouldn't have made a shirt to mock what they did with Kucherov. Chicago was quieter because it was the first time that happened.

Also the difference between Tampa/Chicago vs. Vegas is Vegas doing it for the second year in a row, plus this has now become common. First time Chicago does it? Raises eyebrows. Second time Tampa does it? People hated it and some put an asterisk on their cup. Third time Vegas does it and then now fourth time? Yeah people are going to be annoyed. If some other team did the same, people would be just as annoyed. Yeah some may hate on this more because its Vegas, but there's a lot of people who hate this because its against the spirit of the rules even if technically legal.

Re: whether the players want it or not, you're making an assumption that they don't want any changes. From listening to Andy Strickland, there are at least some players that want this to change. Changing the rule around how LTIR works with playoffs won't change the chances of players winning a cup, that makes no sense. Only one team will win the cup a year, doesn't matter what the rules say.

In this thread, there's a narrative by some that the league doesn't want this to change, or that the players don't want it to change, or even that fans don't want this to change. But from everything we're reading and hearing, that's just not true. Fans definitely want change and at least some players and GMs want a change, whether or not that's enough, we'll have to see.

Of course the players want the current LTIR system. Collectively they make more money.

 

[Tawnos]

Some GMs might say it should be looked at, but the thing is that it HAS been looked and the answer has been "we don't see a need for a solution." This is because while a GM might not like it now, they also don't like the idea of not having this option if the situation happened to their team in the future. I'm not sure there's any stronger a movement against this stuff now than already existed, which wasn't much.

Fans don't like it. Media doesn't like it. Neither group has a role in the decision making process that would change it.