Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

Overtime today. Host made a good point . "Leafs have the highest pay roll above cap in the NHL". They circumvent the cap with LTIR all season long. The bums they bring in with the salary they save is due to sub par management.
"Vegas just takes better advantage of the circumventing the cap"
And leaf nation whine the loudest. ha!

Its amazing some fans can’t grasp the difference between

Players who are not going to play again this season (or ever again) being on LTIR and filling their cap hits with players who will play.

And

Players who are on LTIR for the regular season, been replaced by other players and will be back to play in the playoffs.

One team is double dipping come playoff time. One isn’t.

Now you could certainly argue there are problems with players who “LTIRetire” and get teams out of cap hits for guys they just don’t want anymore. But that is a completely different argument to what Vegas is doing
 
Its amazing some fans can’t grasp the difference between

Players who are not going to play again this season (or ever again) being on LTIR and filling their cap hits with players who will play.

And

Players who are on LTIR for the regular season, been replaced by other players and will be back to play in the playoffs.

One team is double dipping come playoff time. One isn’t.

Now you could certainly argue there are problems with players who “LTIRetire” and get teams out of cap hits for guys they just don’t want anymore. But that is a completely different argument to what Vegas is doing
It's amazing some fans can't grasp that all of this - what Toronto is doing, what Vegas is doing, what other teams have done to shirk contracts of players no longer playing on other teams - is completely legal under the salary cap, yet here we are on page 55 of this thread.
 
It's amazing some fans can't grasp that all of this - what Toronto is doing, what Vegas is doing, what other teams have done to shirk contracts of players no longer playing on other teams - is completely legal under the salary cap, yet here we are on page 55 of this thread.

It's not that posters don't understand what's happening. They don't like it, that's why they post.
 
It's amazing some fans can't grasp that all of this - what Toronto is doing, what Vegas is doing, what other teams have done to shirk contracts of players no longer playing on other teams - is completely legal under the salary cap, yet here we are on page 55 of this thread.
well i guess the thread is over since its legal :rolleyes:

most people had an issue when Chicago was doing it, and when Tampa did it... its completely understandable people are upset with Vegas doing it.
 
It's amazing some fans can't grasp that all of this - what Toronto is doing, what Vegas is doing, what other teams have done to shirk contracts of players no longer playing on other teams - is completely legal under the salary cap, yet here we are on page 55 of this thread.

The rules on cap circumvention are deliberately grey. It’s why the league said they wouldn’t allow teams to trade for a player on LTIR last deadline as they would consider it cap circumvention.

They just choose to look the other way in this instance.

Vegas is clearly not using LTIR for its intended purposes. It’s cap circumvention plain and simple.
 
well i guess the thread is over since its legal :rolleyes:

most people had an issue when Chicago was doing it, and when Tampa did it... its completely understandable people are upset with Vegas doing it.
According to some here, if you're annoyed about this exploitation of the rule then you're just a crybaby who's not allowed an opinion different from theirs.
 
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The rules on cap circumvention are deliberately grey. It’s why the league said they wouldn’t allow teams to trade for a player on LTIR last deadline as they would consider it cap circumvention.

They just choose to look the other way in this instance.

Vegas is clearly not using LTIR for its intended purposes. It’s cap circumvention plain and simple.

This is the part where I, for one, am confused. If they league explicitly said they wouldn't allow it why are they allowing it?

It comes across as super shady.
 
The rules on cap circumvention are deliberately grey. It’s why the league said they wouldn’t allow teams to trade for a player on LTIR last deadline as they would consider it cap circumvention.

They just choose to look the other way in this instance.
This is the part where I, for one, am confused. If they league explicitly said they wouldn't allow it why are they allowing it?

It comes across as super shady.
You both are SO close to getting it.


well i guess the thread is over since its legal :rolleyes:

most people had an issue when Chicago was doing it, and when Tampa did it... its completely understandable people are upset with Vegas doing it.
"I thought it was unfair, and I see a handful of other people thought it was unfair" isn't how you establish "most people thought it was unfair."

Also: "If I think it's unfair, then it must be and everyone else must do something about it to make me feel better" is a really poor way to go about solving problems. That's especially when the "solutions" don't solve the "problem" and lead to bigger problems, or when the "solutions" defy how things work.
 
You both are SO close to getting it.



"I thought it was unfair, and I see a handful of other people thought it was unfair" isn't how you establish "most people thought it was unfair."

Also: "If I think it's unfair, then it must be and everyone else must do something about it to make me feel better" is a really poor way to go about solving problems. That's especially when the "solutions" don't solve the "problem" and lead to bigger problems, or when the "solutions" defy how things work.

1. Ok so how do we get it? An entity saying they will do one thing, and then doing the opposite is confusing, and don't be so obtuse as to say the NHL released that memo for show. They already had a grey area there was no need to clarify anything if there intent was status quo.

2. All solutions defy how things presently work, its a requirement. The problem some people perceive is that the salary doesn't work in the spirit it was originally presented. Their 'solutions' would align the original spirit of the cap with the as written implementation of the cap. Why do you feel you have the right to dictate to others how they feel about the gap between spirit and implementation?
 
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At some point, one has to ask if since the owners agreed to these terms, and the owners are the ones that wanted to use vast sums of wealth to own a team, should more of those owners not “sack up” and do a better job.
 
At some point, one has to ask if since the owners agreed to these terms, and the owners are the ones that wanted to use vast sums of wealth to own a team, should more of those owners not “sack up” and do a better job.
Meh. I'm a Washington fan in football, and a few years back when the CBA ran out, the NFL essentially went cap-less for a season. Well Dan and Co. decided some shenanigans that were technically legal. Here's the story and the aftermath. It's very similar in terms of the competitive advantage aspect.
 
Its amazing some fans can’t grasp the difference between

Players who are not going to play again this season (or ever again) being on LTIR and filling their cap hits with players who will play.

And

Players who are on LTIR for the regular season, been replaced by other players and will be back to play in the playoffs.

One team is double dipping come playoff time. One isn’t.

Now you could certainly argue there are problems with players who “LTIRetire” and get teams out of cap hits for guys they just don’t want anymore. But that is a completely different argument to what Vegas is doing
Nobody knew how long the players would be out when thet went on LTIR and their salary came off the books. They signed other players with the freed up cap space long before they knew how many seasons they were staying out.

as sanctimonious as you seem to be...we do understand. If we didn't before, after listening to Kelly McCrimmon get questioned on it two days go ......we understand it even better. All due respect but I'll go with his Intel on it all rather than yours.

Cheers

Wow someone is reaching. Contender as we speak as the 8th seed in the conference just struggling to make the playoffs? I guess every playoff team is a contender then. 😂

Using that standard I guess a bunch of teams are contenders so your claim that the team almost always contends isn’t much of an impressive claim. Or maybe it is if you’re jealous because your team and front office sucks.

The team hasn’t even had the cap room in recent years to be “in on every big time free agent” so that’s another lie.

The team constantly loses big players in the offseason like a HOF goalie coming off his best season winning the Vezina, the best goal scorer on the team, the best defender on the team, and a guy that was an all around solid player in the first 6 years off the team. The team is obviously going to lose players this offseason and even the leading goal scorer might leave despite being one of the key players.

And if you think there is no downside to the future of the team after trading not only previous first round picks, but also the first round picks of 2025 and 2026, then lol.
🤣
 
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Wow someone is reaching. Contender as we speak as the 8th seed in the conference just struggling to make the playoffs? I guess every playoff team is a contender then. 😂

Using that standard I guess a bunch of teams are contenders so your claim that the team almost always contends isn’t much of an impressive claim. Or maybe it is if you’re jealous because your team and front office sucks.

The team hasn’t even had the cap room in recent years to be “in on every big time free agent” so that’s another lie.

The team constantly loses big players in the offseason like a HOF goalie coming off his best season winning the Vezina, the best goal scorer on the team, the best defender on the team, and a guy that was an all around solid player in the first 6 years off the team. The team is obviously going to lose players this offseason and even the leading goal scorer might leave despite being one of the key players.

And if you think there is no downside to the future of the team after trading not only previous first round picks, but also the first round picks of 2025 and 2026, then lol.
your trying way too hard to cut up the stanley cup champions.
 
1. Ok so how do we get it? An entity saying they will do one thing, and then doing the opposite is confusing, and don't be so obtuse as to say the NHL released that memo for show. They already had a grey area there was no need to clarify anything if there intent was status quo.
If the NHL was serious about preventing cap circumvention, it would have started cracking down by at least the Luongo contract. Preferably the Chara contract, I think there was another long one between the Chara and Luongo contracts but that's been 15+ years and I've slept since then and long since lost a bunch of the documents I had on that stuff. Those were the contracts where it was clear teams were structuring contracts for the purpose of manipulating the cap while avoiding the "35+" rule [any contract of 2+ years where the player was 35+ at the time it was signed, all years counted against the cap regardless of whether or where the player is playing] that was then on the books.

The NHL isn't serious. It never has been. Well, until it finally decided the Kovalchuk contract was "too much" and busted the Devils for that ... but the Pronger and Savard contracts, the Hossa contract, the Weber offer sheet, et. al. that were clearly designed to take a player out beyond the age he was playing and have him "not be able to play" for the explicit purposes of dropping the cap hit but avoid the cap charge for those year? Those were OK. The league was OK with a lot of cap cheating, it just wasn't OK with a lot of cap cheating.

And, it's never going to. Well, until maybe one day when it suddenly makes up a rule that no one understands. Which, again, will represent it's OK with a lot of cap cheating, it's just not OK with a lot of cap cheating.

The sooner everyone realizes that and plays the game that exists instead of the game they wish existed, the sooner they can get over their angst and


2. All solutions defy how things presently work, its a requirement. The problem some people perceive is that the salary doesn't work in the spirit it was originally presented. Their 'solutions' would align the original spirit of the cap with the as written implementation of the cap. Why do you feel you have the right to dictate to others how they feel about the gap between spirit and implementation?
I'm not telling anyone how they're supposed to feel. I'm not them, I'm not trying to pretend to be them. I am saying that after you've been anguished the 18th time and you keep saying BUT I WAS TOLD _______ and you find out reality doesn't match that, maybe you need to ask yourself whether you're the one that's wrong or it really is everyone else. You should especially ask that when that thing does nothing more than hurt your feelings and it otherwise doesn't impact your life, and you will never have a say in the matter unless you manage to stumble across at least a few billion dollars.

Which is why when I say "you're so close to getting it" it's a message to people who notice a pattern and that it doesn't do what they expect it to do because they've been told otherwise, and they're confused about it: that think you keep thinking is right, swearing to god is right ... really isn't right - but, like Charlie Brown, they just know the next time they go running at the football, Lucy won't pull it away because Lucy promised she wasn't going to this time, she wouldn't lie to us again like she did the prior 1851 times, right?

But if someone has a need to be anguished for a 19th, 20th, 66th, 895th, 2857th time because they keep playing the role of Charlie Brown to reality's football, be my guest.
 
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It would help if people understood what "circumventing the cap" really means.

Of course it would also help if people realized that if "circumventing the cap" is a thing, it's league-endorsed and it's never doing anything about it beyond a perfunctory no one should do it, we're watching, we're really serious this year statement.
I wonder if you work for the league PR department or if you just haven't been paying attention to how the league operates.

To make this crystal clear, Roberto Luongo's contract was 100% legal and approved by the league until a couple years later when they retroactively said "it violates the spirit of the salary cap so we're going to punish your team harshly with cap recapture penalties".

Interesting how some teams get held to totally different standards than others and how it directly effects whether a team can realistically compete for a cup or not.
 
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If the NHL was serious about preventing cap circumvention, it would have started cracking down by at least the Luongo contract. Preferably the Chara contract, I think there was another long one between the Chara and Luongo contracts but that's been 15+ years and I've slept since then and long since lost a bunch of the documents I had on that stuff. Those were the contracts where it was clear teams were structuring contracts for the purpose of manipulating the cap while avoiding the "35+" rule [any contract of 2+ years where the player was 35+ at the time it was signed, all years counted against the cap regardless of whether or where the player is playing] that was then on the books.

The NHL isn't serious. It never has been. Well, until it finally decided the Kovalchuk contract was "too much" and busted the Devils for that ... but the Pronger and Savard contracts, the Hossa contract, the Weber offer sheet, et. al. that were clearly designed to take a player out beyond the age he was playing and have him "not be able to play" for the explicit purposes of dropping the cap hit but avoid the cap charge for those year? Those were OK. The league was OK with a lot of cap cheating, it just wasn't OK with a lot of cap cheating.

And, it's never going to. Well, until maybe one day when it suddenly makes up a rule that no one understands. Which, again, will represent it's OK with a lot of cap cheating, it's just not OK with a lot of cap cheating.

The sooner everyone realizes that and plays the game that exists instead of the game they wish existed, the sooner they can get over their angst and



I'm not telling anyone how they're supposed to feel. I'm not them, I'm not trying to pretend to be them. I am saying that after you've been anguished the 18th time and you keep saying BUT I WAS TOLD _______ and you find out reality doesn't match that, maybe you need to ask yourself whether you're the one that's wrong or it really is everyone else. You should especially ask that when that thing does nothing more than hurt your feelings and it otherwise doesn't impact your life, and you will never have a say in the matter unless you manage to stumble across at least a few billion dollars.

Which is why when I say "you're so close to getting it" it's a message to people who notice a pattern and that it doesn't do what they expect it to do because they've been told otherwise, and they're confused about it: that think you keep thinking is right, swearing to god is right ... really isn't right - but, like Charlie Brown, they just know the next time they go running at the football, Lucy won't pull it away because Lucy promised she wasn't going to this time, she wouldn't lie to us again like she did the prior 1851 times, right?

But if someone has a need to be anguished for a 19th, 20th, 66th, 895th, 2857th time because they keep playing the role of Charlie Brown to reality's football, be my guest.

There's a word called verisimilitude you should become familiar with.
 
I wonder if you work for the league PR department or if you just haven't been paying attention to how the league operates.
I don't work for the league PR department, and I have been paying attention to how the league operates. Hence, my comments throughout this thread and others.
To make this crystal clear, Roberto Luongo's contract was 100% legal and approved by the league until a couple years later when they retroactively said "it violates the spirit of the salary cap so we're going to punish your team harshly with cap recapture penalties".
To make this crystal clear: Roberto Luongo's contract, while 100% legal and approved by the league, was in fact written so that until "a couple years later when they retroactively said" it wasn't legal and originally wrote an incredibly punitive penalty for if he quit playing early, had Luongo quit playing at 40 [like he actually did] the cap charge to the Canucks [and later the Panthers ... and then later part the Panthers and part the Canucks] would have been $0.00.

Had Luongo's contract only been allowed to go out to age 40, he either would have had to
* Forego years of getting paid $6,714,000 to get the cap hit down which [wait ... let me do the actuarials on this ...] would have cut a little over $20.1 million in salary off the contract but dropped the cap hit to $4,873,111; or
* Those last 3 years would have been wiped out and the rest of the years counted "as is" and his cap hit would have been [wait ... gotta do the actuarials on this again ...] $6,709,111; or
* The two sides would have had to restructure dollars some other way that worked for both of them [and possibly been intended to be cap-circumventing still, but it likely wouldn't have been nearly as blatant].

Hence, a lot of cheating [to the tune of about $12.4 million for the years that took him out to age 40] at the time that contract was signed was OK.

For the record: I had a huge problem with the league deciding retroactively oh, yeah, these contracts were really bad, we're going to impose massive penalties just in case. That really was changing the rules on teams. If the contract was "good" before, the league should have sucked up and said "we f***ing hate this, but we signed off - that's our fault, we take responsibility for that, but we're stopping this going forward." The real solution, though, would have been to be proactive way back when it started to become apparent, when I and others started sounding the alarm, and saying "whoa, let's get ahead of this and nip it in the bud instead of going full Baghdad Bob, everything is fine, nothing is wrong, we've seen your examples, there is no cap circumvention, no one would ever do anything like that.

That was the moment I realized enforcement of Article 26 was going to be largely perfunctory. 15ish years later, nothing has shown otherwise.

Interesting how some teams get held to totally different standards than others and how it directly effects whether a team can realistically compete for a cup or not.
If "how it directly effects whether a team can realistically compete for a cup or not" was a serious concern, there would be rules in place on all kinds of stuff - spending, talent, coaching, scouting, whatever - so that every team was on equal footing, no one had any advantage over anyone else in anything, and then everyone could realistically compete for a Cup. Or, variances would be so narrow that no team was disadvantaged to the point that it couldn't "realistically compete for a cup or not." [And then we'd have arguments over where that line was drawn and how that wasn't fair to various teams, for various reasons.]

Meanwhile, in the real world, every team has the CBA-granted ability to do what Vegas, Toronto and other teams are doing. The fact that they don't, because of self-imposed restrictions, financial inability, lack of suitable circumstances or comparatively inept management [or any combination of those items and others], isn't the league's problem to solve and it's really not something that should be "fixed" by trying to make things "more fair" by targeting one team with a sledgehammer solution at the potential expense of others who may have done nothing wrong but who get the sledgehammer as well.

There's a word called verisimilitude you should become familiar with.
I'm sorry the words "I might be wrong" aren't something you're willing to say, but trying to show off with [really] big words doesn't impress me.

YMMV.
 
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I'm sorry the words "I might be wrong" aren't something you're willing to say, but trying to show off with [really] big words doesn't impress me.

YMMV.

I'll use a style you're more familiar with:

People stop believing in things which seem fake
 
I'll use a style you're more familiar with:

People stop believing in things which seem fake

And when you're down to nothing more than logical fallacies, I'm done because everything else is probably going to be equally irrelevant and boring.
 
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And when you're down to nothing more than logical fallacies, I'm done because everything else is probably going to be equally irrelevant and boring.

That's completely unrelated. I'm not accusing you of hypocrisy; i'm suggesting you're missing something important the league does care about.

You're argument could be summed as such: the league operates this way and that's fine.

I don't think that's true because the league cares about people believing in, or else they won't sell tickets. Verisimilitude is that concept.

You say you're not impressed by fancy words, so to accomidate you I used smaller ones. You airball by googling logical fallacies and hope it's close enough.
 
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Meh. I'm a Washington fan in football, and a few years back when the CBA ran out, the NFL essentially went cap-less for a season. Well Dan and Co. decided some shenanigans that were technically legal. Here's the story and the aftermath. It's very similar in terms of the competitive advantage aspect.

I can see some similarity, though I think the NHL is less likely to take a similar measure.

If a penalty for utilizing LTIR this way is forthcoming, as long as no team that has done similar can dodge it, that works for me. This way, it‘s not a jealousy tax on one particular team just because their legal department’s cavemen were quicker to find out how fire works on predators.

It‘a pointless to start a sentence with “next CBA, I say modify the rules to blah-blah ad nauseam”, but I believe that reducing the effectiveness……and encouraging more times to do this at the same time would be best. Rather than trying to find a way to fly a Concord through a keyhole with “game 82 this” or “capped playoffs that”, reduce the LTIR load to 50% or 66% so a contract like Stone’s 9.5M only permits an additional 3.16M or 4.25M in wiggle room rather than the total amount, and firmly state to the league and world that the most they’ll do is “handicap the perceived handicap,” and that it’s not a handicap if more owners would prefer selling more tickets than excuses to fans.
 
Because it would prohibit their opponent from cheating and winning the Stanley cup ? I'm sure the Florida Panthers and their fans absolutely love that Vegas circumvented the cap, shit why would they want one of them from being prohibited to play in a playoff game! Genius!
We didn't lose the cup finals because of the salary cap, lol.

We don't cling to many excuses in Panthers land.
 
I can see some similarity, though I think the NHL is less likely to take a similar measure.

If a penalty for utilizing LTIR this way is forthcoming, as long as no team that has done similar can dodge it, that works for me. This way, it‘s not a jealousy tax on one particular team just because their legal department’s cavemen were quicker to find out how fire works on predators.

It‘a pointless to start a sentence with “next CBA, I say modify the rules to blah-blah ad nauseam”, but I believe that reducing the effectiveness……and encouraging more times to do this at the same time would be best. Rather than trying to find a way to fly a Concord through a keyhole with “game 82 this” or “capped playoffs that”, reduce the LTIR load to 50% or 66% so a contract like Stone’s 9.5M only permits an additional 3.16M or 4.25M in wiggle room rather than the total amount, and firmly state to the league and world that the most they’ll do is “handicap the perceived handicap,” and that it’s not a handicap if more owners would prefer selling more tickets than excuses to fans.
Oh I don’t either. The NFL had a major problem with Dan Snyder and the NFL committee was spearheaded by Wellington Mara - also the owner of the redskins rival NY Giants. It was personal.
 
Meanwhile, in the real world, every team has the CBA-granted ability to do what Vegas, Toronto and other teams are doing. The fact that they don't, because of self-imposed restrictions, financial inability, lack of suitable circumstances or comparatively inept management [or any combination of those items and others], isn't the league's problem to solve and it's really not something that should be "fixed" by trying to make things "more fair" by targeting one team with a sledgehammer solution at the potential expense of others who may have done nothing wrong but who get the sledgehammer as well.
Man, all that effort posting to arrive at the point I was making, teams can all legally cheat, but some team's cheating gets retroactively punished and others don't. That's the whole point. Vancouver legally circumvents the cap and the league throws a fit afterwards and punishes them. Vegas circumvents the cap and the league is happy to look the other way year, after year, after year. You can't say "every team can do it" when certain teams are punished and other teams are not punished.

And we haven't even touched the income tax gap which effectively grants certain teams around ten million of extra cash to pay players with.
 

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