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Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

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tarheelhockey said:
The principle behind LTIR is that you don’t get access to both the LTIR’ed player and his replacement at the same time. It’s designed to prevent teams from being in a situation where they can’t field a team if someone gets hurt. I think it’s universally agreed (or at least, I’ve never heard an objection) that if your 1C goes down with injury, that doesn’t mean you have to play with 17 players from now on. You get to replace that guy, potentially with someone of similar caliber, provided you’re willing to move the assets to do so. There isn’t a significant fairness issue there, and the system has worked reasonably well (notwithstanding questions about teams taking LTIRetirement contracts in trades).

Where the issue comes from, is this loophole which allows the underlined words to be ignored in the playoffs. That was not at all the intent of the CBA, and constitutes an obvious fairness issue where your 1C comes back for the playoffs AND you get to keep that other 1C that you acquired to replace him, thus running dramatically over the cap limits that everyone else has to follow.
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Why do we even need to explain this? One team is 10M over the cap while the other is compliant. That’s one elite player or two role players and this can alter the makeup of a team quite a bit.

Those "juste use the same strategy, bro," posts are so dumb they’re not even worth addressing.
 
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Fwiw one of the trades Vegas has made turned out to be a bad trade. Mantha added to the cap but hasn’t helped the team win anything. Lots of Vegas fans were happy to see him out of the lineup in game 4.

Can’t believe the team gave up draft picks for this guy.
 
Ted Hoffman said:
Again: deal with the rule that exists, not the one you want to exist based on some idea of what you think is "fair."
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Not really.

One of two things is happening:
1) Mark Stone is actually getting injured at the perfect time every year, and is healthy JUST in time for the playoffs every year. This is incredibly good fortune, as a high-paid player gets to go on LTIR just in time for his team to trade for major pieces which would otherwise put the team over the cap, but then they get to ignore that once the playoffs start and his incredible luck gifts them with a cap advantage. This is not "fair" in any objective sense of the word -- the only teams who have access to this advantage are teams with incredibly fortuitous injury timing. This isn't an "anyone can do it" thing. It's not particularly fair if it's completely up to chance, it's random. Randomness at this level of fortune, that gifts such a significant benefit, isn't objectively fair.

2) VGK are lying about the extent of the injuries in order to circumvent the cap. Any team could do this, but this is pretty much the definition of "unfair" because it is being untruthful, a.k.a. not following the rules (a player has to actually be injured). If an ATM machine is broken, and anyone could break the law and steal the money, that doesn't make it legal to steal the money. You're still breaking the law. If there is so much grey area that only some teams are willing/able to take advantage and other teams aren't, then the rule should change because it's not really providing a level, fair, rule-based playing field for a cap league. The rule change needs to be driven by the NHLPA in the next CBA negotiations.

tarheelhockey said:
The principle behind LTIR is that you don’t get access to both the LTIR’ed player and his replacement at the same time. It’s designed to prevent teams from being in a situation where they can’t field a team if someone gets hurt. I think it’s universally agreed (or at least, I’ve never heard an objection) that if your 1C goes down with injury, that doesn’t mean you have to play with 17 players from now on. You get to replace that guy, potentially with someone of similar caliber, provided you’re willing to move the assets to do so. There isn’t a significant fairness issue there, and the system has worked reasonably well (notwithstanding questions about teams taking LTIRetirement contracts in trades).

Where the issue comes from, is this loophole which allows the underlined words to be ignored in the playoffs. That was not at all the intent of the CBA, and constitutes an obvious fairness issue where your 1C comes back for the playoffs AND you get to keep that other 1C that you acquired to replace him, thus running dramatically over the cap limits that everyone else has to follow.
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Yes, exactly.
 
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Jets said:
Edmonton, an undesirable small market Canadian team loses on purpose - completely “within the rules” - league can’t have that, draft lottery is changed to not allow worst team automatic first pick or multiple first picks years in a row.

Vegas, Gary Bettman’s pet project expansion success story abuses the LTIR system to get an unfair advantage 4 of their first 5 seasons in the league but it’s “within the rules” - crickets from the league
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Agreed with your overall point but Oilers never purposely loss or tanked. That was all natural baby.
 
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Vegas07 said:
Fwiw one of the trades Vegas has made turned out to be a bad trade. Mantha added to the cap but hasn’t helped the team win anything. Lots of Vegas fans were happy to see him out of the lineup in game 4.

Can’t believe the team gave up draft picks for this guy.
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Doesn’t change anything. If Vegas didn’t cheat they wouldn’t have available the back up plan of Hertl+Hanafin as upgrades to their team if Mantha failed. Just cause Vegas blew it at pro scouting doesn’t change the fact they are have cheated to find an advantage
 
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TheNumber4 said:
Doesn’t change anything. If Vegas didn’t cheat they wouldn’t have available the back up plan of Hertl+Hanafin as upgrades to their team if Mantha failed. Just cause Vegas blew it at pro scouting doesn’t change the fact they are have cheated to find an advantage
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It’s not as big of an advantage if the trade could possibly fail to help the team and might even hurt the team. It’s not the first time a team acquired a player in a trade and the player performed below expectations.

There are other prices to pay for these trades. Losing tons of draft picks, for example. And the Knights are not going to keep every player they want to keep in the offseason either.

This team also is clearly suffering right now from having guys out for a while that are struggling to play their game, which is a disadvantage, not an advantage, especially against a #1 seed (another disadvantage that they have to flip a switch and play a top seed right away).
 
Vegas07 said:
Added 2 players actually. Mantha is a waste of space (and money, and draft picks). Washington has to be thrilled they got something for him.
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Manthas value won't be found on the pt sheet he is now a defensive specialist.

Vegas07 said:
Added 2 players actually. Mantha is a waste of space (and money, and draft picks). Washington has to be thrilled they got something for him.
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Mantha got you 10 pts in 18 regular season games if that is how you grade things
 
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archangel2 said:
Manthas value won't be found on the pt sheet he is now a defensive specialist.


Mantha got you 10 pts in 18 regular season games if that is how you grade things
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Yeah I don’t know about that. 3 goals in 18 games (and zero points in 3 playoff games). I know there is an argument for him having good defensive numbers but both Washington and Vegas fans complain about his lack of effort. And him in the lineup takes another player out of the lineup that could help the team. Amadio replaced him and scored in game 4.
 
Vegas07 said:
Added 2 players actually. Mantha is a waste of space (and money, and draft picks). Washington has to be thrilled they got something for him.
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I always get scared when Mantha gets brought up for an Oilers target. I think we both hold similar opinions on his abilities/cost
 
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Stone has 1 point in 4 games and is a minus 3 this series. People got upset when he had a goal early in game 1 but since then what has he done?
 
Jets said:
Edmonton, an undesirable small market Canadian team loses on purpose - completely “within the rules” - league can’t have that, draft lottery is changed to not allow worst team automatic first pick or multiple first picks years in a row.

Vegas, Gary Bettman’s pet project expansion success story abuses the LTIR system to get an unfair advantage 4 of their first 5 seasons in the league but it’s “within the rules” - crickets from the league
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If Edmonton was "undesirable". they would not have a team.
 
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coooldude said:
Not really.

One of two things is happening:
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Ignore that. It seriously does not matter what Stone's actual status is. All that matters is the league is not doing a goddamn thing about it. I don't care how convinced you are that you're right, unless there is irrefutable proof the league isn't doing anything.

Deal with that reality, play that hand. If you choose not to, that's your problem to deal with.

tarheelhockey said:
The principle behind LTIR is that you don’t get access to both the LTIR’ed player and his replacement at the same time.
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I agree with all of that, and everything else you say. Unfortunately, that's not how things work.

Should it be changed? Yeah, it probably should. [Cue up 887 people lobbing the same shitty idea as a non-solution.] Is it getting changed on April 30, 2024? No. Is it getting changed by April 30, 2025? Very likely no. We can both scream until we're blue in the face about how unfair it is, it doesn't matter. The rules are what they are, nothing is likely changing for at least 2 years, if then. Until then, you have to play by the rules that exist no matter how excrementally unfair you think they are.
Montreal Shadow said:
It isn’t and the rest of your post is complete nonsense. This thread wouldn’t be pages long and most people would be quiet if everyone thought it was fair.
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People think the lottery is somehow unfair and every one of those threads goes pages upon pages, and it basically boils down to I think it's not fair and my feelings are hurt.

If you want to believe what I've been trying to tell you and others is "complete nonsense" then let experience be a total bitch and teach the lesson you refuse to learn.
 
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Ted Hoffman said:
Ignore that. It seriously does not matter what Stone's actual status is. All that matters is the league is not doing a goddamn thing about it. I don't care how convinced you are that you're right, unless there is irrefutable proof the league isn't doing anything.

Deal with that reality, play that hand. If you choose not to, that's your problem to deal with.


I agree with all of that, and everything else you say. Unfortunately, that's not how things work.

Should it be changed? Yeah, it probably should. [Cue up 887 people lobbing the same shitty idea as a non-solution.] Is it getting changed on April 30, 2024? No. Is it getting changed by April 30, 2025? Very likely no. We can both scream until we're blue in the face about how unfair it is, it doesn't matter. The rules are what they are, nothing is likely changing for at least 2 years, if then. Until then, you have to play by the rules that exist no matter how excrementally unfair you think they are.

People think the lottery is somehow unfair and every one of those threads goes pages upon pages, and it basically boils down to I think it's not fair and my feelings are hurt.

If you want to believe what I've been trying to tell you and others is "complete nonsense" then let experience be a total bitch and teach the lesson you refuse to learn.
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I read this three times and I honestly can't understand what you're on about. Are you just trying to say that everyone complaining is a whiny baby? I was responding to whether or not this is all subjective, and it's pretty clearly not subjective. I also said that nothing will change until a new CBA, so not sure whether you read that part. It is what it is until then.

"I think it's not fair and my feelings are hurt" is a weird way to interpret a lot of people making logical arguments for why this rule/the lottery should change at the point in time when it is changeable. Not sure where in your post you debunk that valid opinion. Your stance seems to be "the world is what it is, deal with it, if you don't like it, it's a your feelings problem" which is on its own a strange stance to take and fairly inaccurate and reductive.
 
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Ted Hoffman said:
People think the lottery is somehow unfair and every one of those threads goes pages upon pages, and it basically boils down to I think it's not fair and my feelings are hurt.
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You just made that up with your awful rebuttal. You got nothing of substance as all you had was that fake analogy.
 
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