Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[Ace Card Bedard]

I don't blame Vegas or hate Vegas for doing this.
It's a loophole and they're exploiting it. Every other contender should also be exploiting it.

But it is funny that Stone goes on LTIR in mid-February and comes back for the playoffs for three straight years. And this year he not only comes back but he scores the opening goal, and the guys who were added with his cap-space also factored into the scoring.

Stone - 1 goal
Hertl - 1 goal
Hanifin - 2 assists

It's comedy, unless you're a Stars fan.

 

[TatteredTornNFrayed]

It's comedy, unless you're a Stars fan.

I believe the word is a farce.

 

[Unspecified]

I get it that its a loophole but teams exploiting those loopholes to purposely put other teams at a severe disadvantage makes you look like pieces of shit to the rest of the league. I never want to hear either Vegas or Tampa ever talk about how they respect other teams when they are sleazeballs for using this BS loophole. The fact that Stone is the captain of the team having integrity is paramount. Clearly his morals are severely tainted.

 

[TatteredTornNFrayed]

Every other contender should also be exploiting it.

Every other contender cannot exploit it, unless injury timing and recovery align just right, or unless they are willing to abuse the intent, and letter of the rule. Which clearly some are willing to do, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be called out, or penalized.

And just because some are willing to bend, or even outright smash the rules, doesn't mean everyone should do it.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I don't blame Vegas or hate Vegas for doing this.
It's a loophole and they're exploiting it. Every other contender should also be exploiting it.

But it is funny that Stone goes on LTIR in mid-February and comes back for the playoffs for three straight years. And this year he not only comes back but he scores the opening goal, and the guys who were added with his cap-space also factored into the scoring.

Stone - 1 goal
Hertl - 1 goal
Hanifin - 2 assists

It's comedy, unless you're a Stars fan.

Win 4 games, win the series and make it all irrelevant. If the counter-argument is but Vegas is doing ________ then maybe even after a 52-21-9, 113-point season that secured the top seed in the West and the only real missing piece is Hakanpaa who's a 5/6 guy, the Stars really aren't that good.

 

[WhataKnight]

I wonder how long the NFL would put up with some loophole that allowed one team to circumvent their hard cap to load up on talent before the playoffs to win one Super Bowl and then do it again but even worse the following year. I'd guess this would be resolved in about 3 hours.

Meanwhile, in the joke that is the NHL - each team and the head office has their own set of "capologists" actively monitoring player and team salaries in real time to ensure that players cannot receive even one single penny beyond their 50% slice of the overall pie. And since we don't know how big the pie is until the season is over, we have another army of accountants managing escrow and associated payroll and tax deductions related to escrow.

The hard cap is so essential to the sanctity of the league that several teams have had to dress (and PLAY) zamboni drivers as goaltenders for meaningless games in February but not crucial as to prevent one team from gaining a 20% talent advantage when the championship is being decided. Its madness.

You forgot the sad violins.

I’ll make this easy and say the exact same thing I said when Tampa actually ICED a non-compliant roster - something that to this day, the Golden Knights have not done.

“That’s nuts, and people will take advantage……but it remains until the next CBA.” Until then, it’s valid, legal and defensible upon providing physician’s documentation backing it up, likely from both team and league medical staff.

The owners, NHLPA and league left this in, and any shortcomings with other teams not using it is up to their discretion.

I didn’t bitch and moan when Tampa actually put 90M on the ice, so I’m not going to now. I’m going to sit back, enjoy the ride, enjoy the Cup that the Knights got with no asterisks, and let the chips fall as they do up to and beyond the next CBA.

I’d love it if all the consternation, complaining and gloomy takes could get repurposed to the CBA forum where it either actually belongs or might be positively impactful once the “Requiem for a Dream” downer vibes are removed from it.

(Sidenote: this would all be cleaner if all teams had a “load maintenance reserve.” I’d argue why should any team not have access to that.

 

[TatteredTornNFrayed]

And the number one reason this may not get fixed, or might be "fixed" in a way that is still unsatisfactory to those who believe it results in an uneven playing field, is not what the players or GMs think.

The number one thing driving if or how this would get changed would be how much $$ they think it might earn or cost the league and owners. If they think it helps boost what the next expansion fee is, then that won't be removed. The counter would be if sentiment worsened enough that fans stop attending or watching. Or if it started to cause a large drop in betting activity, and reduced revenue from gambling advertising.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

You forgot the sad violins.

I’ll make this easy and say the exact same thing I said when Tampa actually ICED a non-compliant roster - something that to this day, the Golden Knights have not done.

“That’s nuts, and people will take advantage……but it remains until the next CBA.” Until then, it’s valid, legal and defensible upon providing physician’s documentation backing it up, likely from both team and league medical staff.

The owners, NHLPA and league left this in, and any shortcomings with other teams not using it is up to their discretion.

I didn’t bitch and moan when Tampa actually put 90M on the ice, so I’m not going to now. I’m going to sit back, enjoy the ride, enjoy the Cup that the Knights got with no asterisks, and let the chips fall as they do up to and beyond the next CBA.

I’d love it if all the consternation, complaining and gloomy takes could get repurposed to the CBA forum where it either actually belongs or might be positively impactful once the “Requiem for a Dream” downer vibes are removed from it.

(Sidenote: this would all be cleaner if all teams had a “load maintenance reserve.” I’d argue why should any team not have access to that.

This isn't about the Knights or Mark Stone. and its not about you. Its not about whether you personally never criticized Tampa Bay in 2021 so that somehow that gives you license to defend the absurd policy today (even though your account was created in 2023, so we just have to take your word for it, I guess). This is about the credibility of the NHL.

If you have anything to counter any of the arguments I actually made, go nuts.

 

[SensontheRush]

I think everyone agrees that this is a joke. A "legal" joke, but a joke nonetheless.

 

[Duckesh]

This thread doesn't need another opinion... But here is mine. And my team is already out.

Its a loophole. A legal one. And i don't care if it is "right or wrong".

I can tell you what matters to me and that as a fan of the sport, it makes me not care about the sport. Sports only are fun to follow when there are rules and people follow them. And its legit when rules are enforced. And people who run the games care and nurture the game and enforce rules and make moves to make the game better.

This makes me care a lot less about the sport or whether my team does well this year or in future years, because it doesn't really matter because the rules aren't really there to make the game better.

My team isn't going to be able to use this loophole, so why would I bother to cheer them on and have them lose to a team that is? That feels like a waste of my time to follow a sport of Vegas wins back to back years using the same exploit and no one seems to care enough to try to fix it.

 

[rsteen]

I think that's where Vegas knows their golden.. haha yes a pun for fun.

To be honest I imagine half players in the league could get a doctors approval to not play. Hell I'm probably being generous there. 3/4 of the league could likely get medical clearance if they so chose in order to not play. They all have some bumps and bruises. And while it's accepted in the NHL that you play with them. It's not accepted by everyday society and the medical world.

Doc my toe hurts. yes you have a hairline fracture. Now 99% of the time.. player and team deals with it and it's not even brought up. But a doctor will say.. stay off it.

With the rate they get sued etc. I highly doubt an independent doctor would ever say shit almost ever about even the slightest injury. Hossa's skin condition is a prime example. He could have claimed IR the day after signing his last contract. He played until it was convenient for him not to.

But this year Stone has an injury that a doctor could say shit about. Either his spleen was lacerated or it wasn't.
If he was faking it, he would just have said, "Ow, my chronic back issue has flaired up again."

 

[TheBeard]

If he was faking it, he would just have said, "Ow, my chronic back issue has flaired up again."

He probably would have. His ace in the hole.

 

[caymanmew]

But this year Stone has an injury that a doctor could say shit about. Either his spleen was lacerated or it wasn't.
If he was faking it, he would just have said, "Ow, my chronic back issue has flaired up again."

My question would be what happens if Stone is healthy and ready to go for game 80? Because if he is ready for game 83, it is very possible he might be good to go for game 80, injury recovery isn't exact in terms of timeline, especially 2 months out. If you are healthy, you can't stay on LTRI, at least by the rules.

The reality is Vegas decided in February that he won't be healthy until the playoffs and replace his salary, therefore making it impossible for him to be reactivated from LTIR before the season ends (unless someone else is hurt that covers his cap). they have done this year after year with him and that is why this has become BS and fans are upset. It is clear what they are doing, and the realness of the injury isn't the issue.

 

[BrokenFace]

I get it that its a loophole but teams exploiting those loopholes to purposely put other teams at a severe disadvantage makes you look like pieces of shit to the rest of the league. I never want to hear either Vegas or Tampa ever talk about how they respect other teams when they are sleazeballs for using this BS loophole. The fact that Stone is the captain of the team having integrity is paramount. Clearly his morals are severely tainted.

Tampa was the first victim of this against Chicago and tried to get the loophole closed, but the rest of the league didn't care to. I don't blame the teams that use this loophole or the fans of those teams. I only criticize the league for not caring enough about a level playing field to fix it.

 

[Lacaar]

But this year Stone has an injury that a doctor could say shit about. Either his spleen was lacerated or it wasn't.
If he was faking it, he would just have said, "Ow, my chronic back issue has flaired up again."

I'm not sure anyone doubts Stone has a spleen injury. I think what comes into question is how is he ready for game 1 of the playoffs but not game 82. That's the spirit of the rule which begs the question.

Vegas knows no doctor is going to put their license on the line saying "Wait wait wait.. he could have played game 82" Or even the other way saying.. "wow this guy shouldn't be playing game 1."

Last year it was his back. Had surgery. Hell the guy could probably schedule a yearly back surgery if this spleen thing didn't come up. I have no doubt he could go on IR any time he pleases with his back.

It's quite amazing how valuable he is to the team as he essentially clones himself come playoff time and is non the worse for the wear because of it. I'd honestly be more surprised if this isn't repeated again next year. He's definitely a unique individual, playing so effectively with such a messed up back. Robin Brownlee (RIP) had a great quote about Jason Smith that I imagine could apply to Mark Stone. He has the pain threshold of a cadaver.

In the end the NHL knows Vegas and Stone are manipulating the system. The fans know as well. I think they also know they can't really do anything about it. I'm more interested to see who tries it next etc.

If there's one thing I think cannot really be debated is it's effectiveness. 2 of the last 3 stanley cup winners did this and won. I believe Chicago fluked into a similar situation in 2015. There could even be more I'm not aware of since? that's 3/8 stanley cup winners loading up cap space. It's proven to be a great way to gain any advantage you can on your opponents.

 

[BrokenFace]

I don't blame Vegas or hate Vegas for doing this.
It's a loophole and they're exploiting it. Every other contender should also be exploiting it.

You never know when your franchise is gonna be the one to get the hammer. How many crazy long, back diving contracts were given out before the league decided to punish New Jersey for Kovalchuk's? Maybe the league is fine with Chicago, Tampa, and Vegas (right after they paid their big expansion fee) doing this, but who's to say they won't decide it's unfair when Vancouver, Columbus, or Ottawa does it?

 

[Three On Zero]

Can we change the title to "Vegas actually didn't circumvent the cap and iced a cap compliant roster for Game #1" ?

 

[Duckesh]

Can we change the title to "Vegas actually didn't circumvent the cap and iced a cap compliant roster for Game #1" ?

Everyone is cap compliant for the playoffs. But rosters are more than just what you ice.

its depth players. its extra roster spots. its saving money over the course of the season to increase your available space by using LTIR.

 

[Three On Zero]

Everyone is cap compliant for the playoffs. But rosters are more than just what you ice.

its depth players. its extra roster spots. its saving money over the course of the season to increase your available space by using LTIR.

But if you iced a cap compliant roster in the regular season and then still iced a cap compliant roster in the post season. At what point did you circumvent the cap?

How do you circumvent something you’ve always been within the confines of? Circumventing the cap should give Vegas a competitive edge by disregarding the cap and icing a roster that’s well over what the cap is set at, something they have not done.

Further to your point that everyone is cap compliant, that alone invalidates this entire thread

 

[GirardSpinorama]

But if you iced a cap compliant roster in the regular season and then still iced a cap compliant roster in the post season. At what point did you circumvent the cap?

How do you circumvent something you’ve always been within the confines of? Circumventing the cap should give Vegas a competitive edge by disregarding the cap and icing a roster that’s well over what the cap is set at, something they have not done.

Further to your point that everyone is cap compliant, that alone invalidates this entire thread

Vegas would be circumventing the cap if mark stone was not eligible for LTIR and they still used it. If there was communication between the doctor and the team that the injury wasnt legitimate, they would be circumventing the cap.

 

[Three On Zero]

Vegas would be circumventing the cap if mark stone was not eligible for LTIR and they still used it. If there was communication between the doctor and the team that the injury wasnt legitimate, they would be circumventing the cap.

That would be more fraudulent than circumvention

 

[GirardSpinorama]

That would be more fraudulent than circumvention

Potato, potato. No one can circumvent the cap without some fraudulent action. Like if Mark Stone had an agreement to be paid under the table.

 

[1909]

Salary cap applies only in regular season. Three is no rule for the Playoffs. It’s up to the NHL and players association to look after that. Yes, it is somewhat frustrating to see a Kucherov or Stone being 100% healthy for the first Playoffs games. VGK added important players while Stone was away: Hanifin & Mantha

 

[Panthaz89]

I guess you don't really understand what is going on.

What cheating is happening? Please point to the CBA rule that was broken. The rules are the same for every team.

LTIR are for players that are actually injured if you think he's just magically healed by game 1 I got some real estate to sell you.

 

[TheBeard]

I stand by my statement that players should not be allowed to practice with the team until taken of LTIR. It's one thing to magically be healthy for game 1, but to be allowed to practice and get into game shape because they're obviously on the cusp of returning is even sketchier. That's a blatant case of prolonging the return designation for cap-related purposes.