Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[Thallis]

That's really not the point though. The issue is that Stone being on LTIR until day one allowed them the space at the deadline to add two impact players that are now on their roster. Had the expectation been that Stone would play before the end of the year they would not have been able to add both players without subtracting something significant from the roster.

Set aside the legitimacy of this specific injury. If a star on a contender misses games 10-30 in almost every case the only reasonable option is for the team to replace the player internally with one or more players that are substantially below the star in impact. In this situation that team not only has to deal with the in-season fallout from there missing star but they cannot accrue cap space for the deadline, and they definitely does not give them a stronger roster for the playoffs.

In contrast, if the same star is suddenly out from the deadline to the end of the season, that team can use the cap space to go out and find an impact replacement from outside there roster, and because of the unique timing might even be able to leverage the space into two impact players. So not only do they not have to deal with the drop off from a star to an internal replacement in the regular season but they could in theory get stronger even without the star. Then the player comes back for game 1 and you have a team that is significantly stronger than they would otherwise have been at the most consequential time of the year. This is what makes it so tempting for a team to abuse the LTIR rule.

No it's exactly the point. Using LTIR to filling the roster while guys are out long term is intentionally allowed and every team does it (13/16 in the playoffs this year). That isn't abusing LTIR, that's using it as it's intended to function. People are bitching about Stone being activated to gain an advantage of being over the cap in the playoffs and here they are not being over the cap.

 

[TLEH]

Based on what everyone has said over the past couple seasons, that is the issue.

It was considered shrewd when the Hawks did it with Kane in 2015. Now, it's a travesty with the Knights and Stone.

The league has an extremely hard cap but LTIR is the new 1M bogus years at the end of the deals. Once you're going into the deadline three years in a row with this plan in your back pocket, its no longer circumstance, its planned LTIR.

I'm cool if Vegas wins again. Its not a travesty in the slightest, but people arguing there is nothing to change are wrong as far as I am concerned.

 

[The Professional]

Mark Stone before game 1 of the playoffs every year

 

[Canovin]

Vegas medical team is willing to lose their medical license

 

[GRob83]

It could be a very simple solution. Make GM's designate injured players for return or announce that they are out for the season (will not participate in playoffs) by trade deadline day. Players designated for return count against the Cap.

 

[WaveRaven]

The solution to this garbage is simple. You're roster each night needs to at or below the salary cap all season long.

So sure load up to 25 million over the cap with LTIR players but you're going to ever get to play them all together.

 

[MikeK]

I'm not sure what the answer is. But it's a loophole that needs plugging. It's dirty business and I personally don't think it's good for the game. I won't call it cheating because it's currently within the rules. But that is where the problem exists, it shouldn't be.

 

[Juxta Position]

Why would they fake an injury that is diagnosed via imaging? They would be caught as soon as the NHL started investigating and they couldn't produce a scan showing damage to his spleen.

If they were faking it he would just have said he had a recurrence of the back issues that kept him out last season. Patient says he's in too much pain to play hockey, no way of disproving that.

you say they would be caught, and that is true, but only if the league has any intention to try and catch them.

But why would the League want to catch them when Gary Bettman sole job as commissioner is make as much money for the owners as possible? That is literally his primary function, he is the representative of the team owners, hired by the owners to work in their best interest. All the other stuff he does, trying to "grow" the game, rule changes, blah,blah,blah is just an extension of his only real responsibility, make the owners richer...and a winning Vegas team, makes everyone richer.

Gary Bettman doesn't give two squirrley poo's about the integrity of the game, rules of fair play, any of that stuff, it's a billion dollar business that he's charged with making as profitable as possible.

 

[CycloneSweep]

No it's exactly the point. Using LTIR to filling the roster while guys are out long term is intentionally allowed and every team does it (13/16 in the playoffs this year). That isn't abusing LTIR, that's using it as it's intended to function. People are bitching about Stone being activated to gain an advantage of being over the cap in the playoffs and here they are not being over the cap.

The issue here is that Stone is suddenly healthy enough to play amazing Game 1.
Its obvious and clear as day he was healthy earlier but they had to cheat and lie to keep him out.

The rule in theory makes sense but when you have to cheat to make it work. Well *shrug*

 

[Fourier]

No it's exactly the point. Using LTIR to filling the roster while guys are out long term is intentionally allowed and every team does it (13/16 in the playoffs this year). That isn't abusing LTIR, that's using it as it's intended to function. People are bitching about Stone being activated to gain an advantage of being over the cap in the playoffs and here they are not being over the cap.

The fact that Martinez did not play is effectively irrelevant to my claim that LTIR was almost surely never intended to be used in this way, specifically to allow teams at the trade deadline to add one or more high impact players that they would otherwise not be able to. If it was the NHL would not have sent out warning letters to teams last year about trading for Nyquist for example.

As it stands this is clearly an unintended loophole that is not easy to fix outside of a new CBA. If used legitimately it still has the consequence of distorting the competitive balance, something that runs counter to LTIR's primary reason for being which was to allow teams to partially mitigate serious injuries to players as best possible, rather than as a tool to significantly strengthen a team for the playoffs. But it also creates a lot of potential to be abused. The problem is that proving misuse is never going to be easy.

From the League's perspective this rule at the very least creates a perception that teams are cheating regardless of how the rule is interpreted. That is not a good thing

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Ok, but the counter argument to that is Vegas essentially "traded" Mark Stone for two months in order to secure a top pairing defensemen, top six center and middle six winger all with the guarantee Stone would return after two months.

If you told me the Avalanche could park Mikko Rantanen on LTIR for 2 months then load up with Hanifin, Hertl, and Mantha then casually welcome Rantanen back for game 1 I would tell you idgaf where we finish because our roster is the best roster.

To be clear: as the rules stand, I don't have a problem with it. Do I like how the rules currently work? No, but do I have even a semi-good solution to them that's plausible? Also no. [At the moment.] But I'm certainly not going to say well, I don't think those rules are right and then play by a different set of rules that I think are "more fair" and then get upset when someone else doesn't but they're still playing within the rules that exist.

That said, while I get your thinking the path through the playoffs is still more challenging if you're the 8-seed going through the best teams in the conference, and even having "the best roster" is no guarantee you're going to get through that path.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

From the League's perspective this rule at the very least creates a perception that teams are cheating regardless of how the rule is interpreted. That is not a good thing

From the perspective of fans. And perhaps the perspective of a few aggrieved GMs.

From the league's perspective? It (thus far?) doesn't care enough to do anything, which ... as I'll state yet again, if it thought Vegas was fudging details on when Stone was healthy enough to play, it had the ability to go do something about it.

 

[syz]

Reminder that this is Ken Holland's fault. He'd never have the balls to exploit it but he was the one who convinced the other GMs to not have a cap in the playoffs when they were putting things together during the lockout.

 

[Fourier]

From the perspective of fans. And perhaps the perspective of a few aggrieved GMs.

From the league's perspective? It (thus far?) doesn't care enough to do anything, which ... as I'll state yet again, if it thought Vegas was fudging details on when Stone was healthy enough to play, it had the ability to go do something about it.

If there is broad perception amongst the fans that a team is cheating there is no way to make that into a positive for the League. And its not actually true that it has not yet done anything. The League specifically sent out a warning letter to teams last year concerning trades for players that were on LTIR but who would be able to come back.

The problem they have is that it would be very difficult for them to do anything about the real consequences of these sorts of actions until much later. Would they have voided the trades that Stone's LTIR made possible? At best they might be able to penalize a team after the playoffs. How it look if in July after an investigation they hit their champion with a penalty for cheating?

For the record, I have said previously that this specific injury to Stone would have made it almost impossible for the League to do anything. My objection is less about this instance and more about the obvious flaw in how the LTIR is constructed.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

If there is broad perception amongst the fans that a team is cheating there is no way to make that into a positive for the League.

There's a broad perception amongst the fans that [insert any number of things people complain about ] and there's no way to make that into a positive for the league. Still, fans fork out hundreds of dollars for tickets to show up for games and then fork out some more for parking, concessions, etc. so clearly they're not that bothered.

No fan-centric complaint is ever going to generate a league response until/unless fans don't show up over it, and fans are not that interested in staying away in droves to make that happen.

 

[GoldenKnight]

Guilty as charged, fellas.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

My guess on how this gets resolved near-term:

* League announces it's doing an investigation into Vegas, Stone and LTIR
* Vegas and Stone ultimately get nailed for fudging details to the point it creates doubt
* Vegas gets fined (I'm thinking $3 million, max is $5 million and I don't think they get hit that hard unless it's blatant), takes a cap penalty in the amount of the fine, and forfeits a 1st-round pick (to be given up from 2024-2028, excepting 2025 because Vegas has traded that away)
* Stone gets fined $250,000 and suspended for some period of time for his part in this
* NHL and NHLPA announce agreement to discuss this going forward, with no guarantee of any solution

And then the real kicker to everyone thrilled that Vegas has finally been nailed by the league:
* Stone retires due to his back injury and never has to serve the suspension. And, because he's retiring due to injury, Vegas can use LTIR on him. The fine still holds, he gives up nothing else in salary because his absence is due to an injury.

 

[bossram]

Never argued it was mysterious. Never argued that other teams haven’t done it. It’s a competitive advantage in a league with an extremely hard cap. It goes against everything they stand for.

All I’ve said this entire time is that

1) They are following the rules as written
2) the rules should be changed if you’re allowed to exceed the cap by a substantial amount and ride that into the post season free and clear. Hawks did it and won. Tampa did it and won. Vegas did it and won. Competitive advantage, and a damn good one.

It's not a competitive advantage if the rules and opportunity to do it are the same for every team.

 

[bossram]

its never been about the players health.

Aaaah, here we go. We just switch arguments every time it's convenient. It's no longer about health, it's only about whether a team is getting a cap advantage.

if you can't get off LTIR for game 82 but are ready for game 1 of the playoffs, its fishy, two years in a row is a joke.

He was clearly ready to play by the end of the season but was hid on LTIR because Vegas couldn't ice a cap complaint roster. You'll never convince me otherwise, and this loophole will be closed. Teams are talking and complaining according to Saravalli on the DFO rundown today.

LMAO man. Every player is going to be more willing come back early or play through injury/pain in the playoffs. Of course he would sit G82 vs Playoff G1. Literally every single player and every single team in that same situation would do the same. Half the guys on every roster are banged up enough that a doctor would certainly deem them "injured".

And multiple teams have done this same thing! Chicago and TB did the exact same thing to win Cups! VAN did it when they went to the final! This isn't some mysterious activity only Vegas is using and is unavailable to any other team.

You're basically saying that there should be a standard that, if a player is remotely capable of taking the ice, they should be forced to return. That is ludicrous.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

Didn't watch the Stars-Knights game as I was watching my team play. For those who did watch did it look like Stone was very rusty out there? Boxscore has him playing 17:09 of the game which is second among forwards.

 

[bossram]

No one is forcing him to play regardless of pain, Vegas is free to make him a healthy scratch if he needs a maintenance day.

So now your argument is, they should take a guy of LTIR as soon as he's able to be a "healthy scratch", even if he's not going to a play.

This is a standard that literally no team upholds.

 

[hangman005]

My guess on how this gets resolved near-term:

* League announces it's doing an investigation into Vegas, Stone and LTIR
* Vegas and Stone ultimately get nailed for fudging details to the point it creates doubt
* Vegas gets fined (I'm thinking $3 million, max is $5 million and I don't think they get hit that hard unless it's blatant), takes a cap penalty in the amount of the fine, and forfeits a 1st-round pick (to be given up from 2024-2028, excepting 2025 because Vegas has traded that away)
* Stone gets fined $250,000 and suspended for some period of time for his part in this
* NHL and NHLPA announce agreement to discuss this going forward, with no guarantee of any solution

And then the real kicker to everyone thrilled that Vegas has finally been nailed by the league:
* Stone retires due to his back injury and never has to serve the suspension. And, because he's retiring due to injury, Vegas can use LTIR on him. The fine still holds, he gives up nothing else in salary because his absence is due to an injury.

You forgot to disband the team.

 

[bossram]

Jarnkrok went on LTIR a week after the trade deadline. Not the same circumstances.

Some people are saying it's about health and whether the team is masking the health status of the player. So regardless of when they went on LTIR, to be consistent, why should not every player be forced back before the playoffs?

 

[bossram]

When the only reason to have a player on ltir is because he’s too expensive to play and not too injured to play it’s f….ng bs.
Not having Stone on LTIR doesn’t mean he has to be forced to play be better than that C’moon now. You can sit players at the end of the season without having to put them on ltir

By your stand why have cap? What’s the point of it then, let’s get rid of it

It’s not like we are talking of a one time thing with Vegas, it’s well knowingly saying FU to the league and other teams fans. They have no issues with bragging about it

1. Yeah, they probably should, at the least, loosen the cap rules anyway. Teams want to spend way over the cap, just let them.

2. Multiple teams have used this mechanic exactly the same way. TB and Chicago won Cups with it. It's not some mysterious Vegas advantage that no one else has access to. Kucherov bragged about it. It's in the rules. Use it.

Tell your favourite team to put their star player on LTIR at the deadline to make some additions then.

 

[Sting]

My guess on how this gets resolved near-term:

* League announces it's doing an investigation into Vegas, Stone and LTIR
* Vegas and Stone ultimately get nailed for fudging details to the point it creates doubt
* Vegas gets fined (I'm thinking $3 million, max is $5 million and I don't think they get hit that hard unless it's blatant), takes a cap penalty in the amount of the fine, and forfeits a 1st-round pick (to be given up from 2024-2028, excepting 2025 because Vegas has traded that away)
* Stone gets fined $250,000 and suspended for some period of time for his part in this
* NHL and NHLPA announce agreement to discuss this going forward, with no guarantee of any solution

And then the real kicker to everyone thrilled that Vegas has finally been nailed by the league:
* Stone retires due to his back injury and never has to serve the suspension. And, because he's retiring due to injury, Vegas can use LTIR on him. The fine still holds, he gives up nothing else in salary because his absence is due to an injury.

Fully expecting there to be some sort of Senators connection here when penalties are being discussed. Sens didn't disclose a document about Mark Stone when he was traded. Sens also docked another 1st rd pick.