Vancouver Millionaires sweater numbers

[greyraven8]

Have an uncrested Vancouver Millionaires style hockey jersey and am going to sew on a bone-like 'V' crest like the one used by the 1913 team. Was thinking of possibly adding a number.

The PCHA teams had numbers on the back of their sweaters, but I haven't run across any pictures of the backs of the sweaters, a drawing, or even a reference somewhere to the size of the numbers.

Seen mention (article with John Mikl Thor) of the Vancouver Terminals lacrosse team using the Millionaires sweater for lacrosse. Haven't had luck yet with that angle either.

Anyone have anything at all?

Click to read more...

 

[Killion]

Anyone have anything at all?

Yes..... A question & something Ive been suspicious about for some time. Now, we know the Patricks are credited with a number of innovations to the game and that one of them includes the use of player numbers to sweaters.... Only, heres the thing see.... I saw a game worn Fred Cyclone Taylor Vancouver Millionaires Sweater in the HHOF back in the 80's & guess what?..... No number..... I just did a major google search looking for images, anything to confirm numbers worn by Vancouver, following the trail of Si Griffiths & just on & on, Denman Arena... Seattle & Victoria.... nothing. Can. Not. Find. Photographic. Evidence. There is one shot in which I found a "hint" of a number, player photo taken from the side in full profile & on his back maybe... m a y b e.... if you really really REALLY squint.... and if you really really REALLY squint youll also see 5 mile high glass towers & massive Alien Bases on the dark side of the moon taken by celestial telescopes, the Chinese & Nasa according to Richard Hoagland & others but I digress.... Maybe it was a temporary innovation, only used for a season or 2? Maybe not at all? A myth?.... Numbers 1st appeared in the NHL in 1926, mandated in 1929 when they instituted a min 13 dressed player roster. Back then, numbers assigned based on position.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

They didn't wear numbers...

Most teams didn't use numbers (in most sports or the big 4) until the 20's...

*edit* I suppose Killion answered your question...

 

[VanIslander]

Put any number you'd like.

'15' would be a most apt number!

 

[Hawksfan2828]

94, not many players wear that number in Vancouver...

Sorry, couldn't help it.

All in good fun..

 

[Sanf]

I have never really looked into this matter, but I´m pretty certain that many teams/leagues used numbers back then. I don´t remember if I have seen actual photo from that far (I guess they couldn´t afford film to take belfies or what they call it), but there were lot of cartoons/drawings/caricatures in papers.

I quickly could found only couple from 1912-1913 (Toronto Tecumseh) where player clearly have number in their back.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=El8xAAAAIBAJ&sjid=dioDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6086%2C4357123

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HV8xAAAAIBAJ&sjid=dioDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6320%2C6678779

Don´t remember if I have seen such from Vancouver Millionares and I don´t know if that would help much. I guess they used artistic freedom in these.

 

[sr edler]

SIHR lists jersey numbers for the 1911–12 Vancouver Millionaires, the season prior to 1913. Players on the 1912 team who reappeared on the 1913 team are goalkeeper Alan Parr, defensemen Si Griffis and Frank Patrick, and forwards Fred "Smokey" Harris and Sibby Nichols. Nichols only played one game with the Millionaires in 1912–13 though.

Numbers for the 1912 PCHA season are, according to SIHR

Alan Parr #1
Frank Patrick #2
Si Griffis #3
Sibby Nichols #5
Fred Harris #6
____

1912 players not on the 1913 team:

Newsy Lalonde #4
Tommy Phillips #7
Jack Ulrich #?

____

On the 1913 Millionaires team, newcomers Carl Kendall and Jack McDonald only played that one season in the PCHA. The third newcomer, Fred "Cyclone" Taylor played in nine additional seasons with the Millionaires. The first season where he's listed with a number on SIHR is in 1917–18 where he's listed with jersey #4. He's listed with that number until 1921–22.

But who knows if he wore that same number in 1913?

I do not.

 

[sr edler]

I guess they couldn´t afford film to take belfies or what they call it

It's called selfies I guess, but it would be kind of hard to take a selfie of one's own back without a curved selfie stick. They didn't have those curved selfie sticks back in 1913.

 

[Killion]

SIHR lists jersey numbers for the 1911–12 Vancouver Millionaires.... The third newcomer, Fred "Cyclone" Taylor played in nine additional seasons with the Millionaires. The first season where he's listed with a number on SIHR is in 1917–18 where he's listed with jersey #4. He's listed with that number until 1921–22.

... huh. all very curious edler. I was shown that Taylor jersey I mentioned above by a senior employee at the HHOF, it wasnt on display, had no number & I was told it had been game used. Looked like it as well. Im not convinced the PCHA did use numbers on their jerseys for the entire history of the league. Its my contention it was short lived. Probably because of player turnover, the numbers just adding confusion to the fans. Cant prove it but then I havent seen any hard proof that numbers were used & indeed was shown hard physical proof that numbers were not used. Cant imagine the SIHR would screwup on that but what longevity, length? For how long did they use numbers? Possible the jersey I saw was a practice jersey, a 2nd, a fake. Do I believe my lying eyes or the SIHR?

 

[sr edler]

... huh. all very curious edler. I was shown that Taylor jersey I mentioned above by a senior employee at the HHOF, it wasnt on display, had no number & I was told it had been game used. Looked like it as well. Im not convinced the PCHA did use numbers on their jerseys for the entire history of the league. Its my contention it was short lived. Probably because of player turnover, the numbers just adding confusion to the fans. Cant prove it but then I havent seen any hard proof that numbers were used & indeed was shown hard physical proof that numbers were not used. Cant imagine the SIHR would screwup on that but what longevity, length? For how long did they use numbers? Possible the jersey I saw was a practice jersey, a 2nd, a fake. Do I believe my lying eyes or the SIHR?

I dunno. SIHR dosen't list any sources for those numbers, they're only listed for players season-by-season in the team stats section.

As for the PCHA, players on the Seattle Metropolitans are listed with numbers from season 1917–18 until 1920–21, some players without though in 18–19 & 19–20. Players on the New Westminster Royals, three PCHA seasons between 1912–1914, aren't listed with any numbers. Same for Portland Rosebuds, four seasons between 1915–1918. Victoria Aristocrats are listed with numbers for the inaugural 1912 season, like the Millionaires, but then like the Millionaires they're listed without numbers for many seasons to follow. Three players on the Aristocrats reappear with numbers in 1918–19, Tommy Dunderdale, Lester Patrick & Bobby Genge, and then in 19–20 most players have numbers, and in 20–21 it's only three players with numbers. In 21–22 only Frank Fredrickson.

It's probably hard to find extensive evidence or proof for player numbers going that far back. Players aren't usually depicted from behind, where numbers usually are put. In the papers, not a very lot of clues. I've done some extensive newspaper & contemporary hockey guide research on the American Amateur League for example and the only player I've seen mentioned with a number in that league is Tom Howard, Jr., in the 1916–17 season, with #13.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

I want to see pictures...

To my knowledge numbers weren't common in any sport until the 20's...

Numbers were only meant for spectators to know which players were which and to keep stats...

It would be unusual for players to have numbers before the 20's, but perhaps they were tried..

 

[Sanf]

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=dU8dAAAAIBAJ&sjid=l1UEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1350%2C4853274

Not a great pictures, but few Montreal Wanders from 1913-1914 season Art Boyes and Ernie Russell. Nuimber is on front though.

Apparently they had another on their sleeve.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3052/2317148654_6de9efcd6a_b.jpg

But I don´t know did they use numbers every season. Like Edler I haven´t seen (IIRC) references to the player numbers on the game recaps and I have spent quite a lot of time with old newspapers. I may have seen those in early season roster listings, but that is from memory (and memory can fail).

 

[sr edler]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3052/2317148654_6de9efcd6a_b.jpg

Nice find. Does this photo belong in a flickr stream with other phots or was it this one only?

 

[Sanf]

Nice find. Does this photo belong in a flickr stream with other phots or was it this one only?

I just googled Wanderers 1914 and that picture was one of those that came in the search. So I don´t really know.

I was looking my old bookmarks and found several lineup prediction with numbers. Like
Here. (bit down)

Guess I haven´t paid much attention to that.

Still none of this helps OP. I guess the best try would be from Vancouver papers from that season.

 

[Sanf]

Found this small article about late season exhibition game between Millionares and Roals played in Calgary.

Those fans who have watched Eastern professional games will have no trouble in picking out the men, most of whom have played the game in the N.H.A. before, the organization of western hockey, and to help those who do not know the players by sight they will all be numbered and by clipping the list from the paper anyone will be able to pick out the scorers.

Teams on the other team are numbered from 1 to 7 other 8 to 15. Of course this isn´t proof of anything, but seems odd that the players would be numbered this way if they already had numbers.

The Calgary Daily Herald - Mar 17, 1913